Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[SLA]

Had a great game of T20 last night against a good team. We recovered from a shaky start to make 133 on a flat pitch, which we felt was 10-20 runs short, but we bowled and fielded well to limit the oppo to 123, despite losing our opening bowler after 2 overs to a strained calf and having to make a few overs up from part-timers.

I bowled 2 overs in the middle, and then bowled the 18th and 20th overs. After 16 overs they were on 106-5, so 28 off 24 balls, at which point we were decidedly nervous. 3 tight overs followed and by the final over they needed 16 to win, but I bowled fast and flat at middle stump and with a decent amount of drift and turn and limited them to . 2 2 W . .

I ended on 3-15 from my 4 overs, the other death bowler bowled outswingers to an offside field for 1-14 off his 4 overs.

 

[boogiespinner]

Had a practice yesterday in the nets from 3/4 length standing. Did a fair bit of round arm, and worked on pivoting. I think round arm is good for that as the benefits from pivoting are magnified. Still all very formative but I am really getting some good revs on the ball. Occasionally have a really good feeling of the ball rolling right over the hand this is the feeling I am practising on. I think it might be that the hand just holds up a little just as the ball is coming over so the ball spins off the fingers even after there is no couple in the grip.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Had a practice yesterday in the nets from 3/4 length standing. Did a fair bit of round arm, and worked on pivoting. I think round arm is good for that as the benefits from pivoting are magnified. Still all very formative but I am really getting some good revs on the ball. Occasionally have a really good feeling of the ball rolling right over the hand this is the feeling I am practising on. I think it might be that the hand just holds up a little just as the ball is coming over so the ball spins off the fingers even after there is no couple in the grip.

I tried bowling with a lower arm last week which for some reason is something I've never done! I think I had this perception that it would be really difficult and might end up messing with my stock ball. Neither happened, but the outcome was that I got drift and the ball turned miles off the pitch, far more than I normally do, so it's a bit of a revelation and I'm now working with it in my practice sessions - it looks pretty useful. I've not got any games now for the next 4 weekends, so I'll see if I can have this new lower arm action ready for the last few games of the season.

 

[boogiespinner]

I tried bowling with a lower arm last week which for some reason is something I've never done! I think I had this perception that it would be really difficult and might end up messing with my stock ball. Neither happened, but the outcome was that I got drift and the ball turned miles off the pitch, far more than I normally do, so it's a bit of a revelation and I'm now working with it in my practice sessions - it looks pretty useful. I've not got any games now for the next 4 weekends, so I'll see if I can have this new lower arm action ready for the last few games of the season.

Nice! I got the Philpott book recently, and he advocates round arm practice. I don't know how round arm I'd like to end up but if it works, why not? I'm sure that all the deliveries are possible.

Sometimes I think, god this is all so hard, but so often I feel there's some new breakthrough or understanding.

I had great hand-to-hand and brick wall practice today. Right at the end I just let loose - throwing legspin with little wind up - and was hitting the wall with some really filthy stuff. Yeah!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Nice! I got the Philpott book recently, and he advocates round arm practice. I don't know how round arm I'd like to end up but if it works, why not? I'm sure that all the deliveries are possible.

Sometimes I think, god this is all so hard, but so often I feel there's some new breakthrough or understanding.

I had great hand-to-hand and brick wall practice today. Right at the end I just let loose - throwing legspin with little wind up - and was hitting the wall with some really filthy stuff. Yeah!

Yeah keep going - let us know what happens when you take your ideas out on to the pitch.

 

[SLA]

Is the middle of the season really the best time to be messing with your bowling action? I would have thought October-January was the time to make changes, and then sit tight and stay consistent for the summer.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Is the middle of the season really the best time to be messing with your bowling action? I would have thought October-January was the time to make changes, and then sit tight and stay consistent for the summer.

Yeah, you're right, I can't see that I'll definitely use it, but I am off on holiday now and doing a lot of practice, so will see how it goes, I might be able to bring it in as a variation possibly rather than my stock ball?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Is the middle of the season really the best time to be messing with your bowling action? I would have thought October-January was the time to make changes, and then sit tight and stay consistent for the summer.

That all depends on how the bowling action is working. If a bowler doesn't feel it is anywhere close to where they want it to be and they're not performing particulary well, then it is as good a time as any to make an adjustment. If they have a fairly solid and reliable action then it's probably worth waiting until September to make some adjustments.

 

[Cleanprophet]

We had a good game yesterday. The pitch had plenty of turn and reasonable bounce. We had a couple of first team batters playing for us (including a batter who used to be with Lancs and the first team captain). It's always good to play with players who've played a good 15-20 years with and against pro's. One of them was fielding bat/pad for me, right in the batter's face. I don't always find fielders prepared to field there. They were coming up with some good plans too for certain batters. That's another thing I don't always get from the keeper and the slips - feedback and advice.

We batted first (mainly because 5 of the players were late because they couldn't find the club). I was sent in to bat at 4 and found myself batting after only about 6 or 7 overs and against the opening bowlers. They were reasonable bowlers but nothing special. One bowler was moving the ball in the air and off the pitch but was bowling wide of off-stump. The other bowler was getting it through at about 70mph, but was bowling everything back of a length. His fielders were telling him to pitch it up and get me on the front foot. I would have been happy with that, but he couldn't bowl a good length. As a result, I was happy to leave the short pitch stuff to bounce over the stumps. I was batting with the first team captain and he called me through for a quick single - I didn't make it in time and was run out. Disappointed with that. I probably should have turned the run down because I'm not exactly the quickest runner you will see. I probably should back up a bit more too.

The other players turned up and we managed to get 151 before declaring after 40 overs.

We had a left-arm spinner (plays 1st team and 2nd team). He opened at one end with the 1st team captain bowling his very part-time medium pace. I think we put down about 4 catches, all to the left-arm spinner and all very easy catches. One of the fielders who put a couple of catches down is very new to cricket and is not a natural sportsman. Really, he has no coordination so when the ball is lobbed up to him we are all expecting him to spill it, which he duly did. But we stil encourage him. In a friendly game like this nobody gets on anyone's back about it. However, he dropped the second catch and sat on the floor as the batters were running. I was shouting at him to get up and get the ball. He eventually did and then walked off the pitch shouting "I'll never be able to do it. I don't know what I was thinking" and words to that effect. So, he walked off and left us with 10 men (not sure we will see him again).

I then came on to bowl and first ball had one skied up right back at me and I managed to spill it. I couldn't believe it. The easiest catch I'd probably ever have and I dropped it. I hadn't dropped a catch in 3 years and then dropped two in the slips last week and now this one. Very sloppy and I paid the price with that batter hitting a few runs off me. Throughout my 10 overs I had another 3 catches put down. I was bowling mostly those slider/sidespinners and bowled quite a few very good balls and finished with 2 for 43 from my 10 overs. Could easily have been 4 or 5 for 30 if the catches had been taken. The left-arm spinner bowled about 15 or 16 overs and picked up 6 wickets for about 55 (I think he had 4 drops off his bowling also) and managed to bowl them out for 140 to win the match. Not a great pitch and not great fielding (even with 10 men for most of the game), but it was an entertaining game in the end and my bowling was decent. I'd give myself 7 out of 10. Those sliders were drifting in nicely. When I bowled the legspinners the batters were able to get after them a bit more. I've found that sloggers cope a lot better with the legspinners, even with a bit of dip on the ball. The sliders, with that decent amount of drift, cause a lot more problems to sloggers. It's the other way around for proper batters.

 

[boogiespinner]

just went to Lord's hoping to see an exciting finish to the test... set off during the lunch break, got to the ground, heard Prior getting out as I looked for a cashpoint, then heard Stokes falling as I paid for my ticket, then had just got inside to see Root holing out. Eight down before I sat down!

 

[Cleanprophet]

just went to Lord's hoping to see an exciting finish to the test... set off during the lunch break, got to the ground, heard Prior getting out as I looked for a cashpoint, then heard Stokes falling as I paid for my ticket, then had just got inside to see Root holing out. Eight down before I sat down!

Ouch! The loss of Moeen Ali was the killer. Last ball before lunch, the Indians looked short of answers and looked a little dejected. Ali played it terribly, not for the first time against a short ball (he will get plenty of them from now on) and the Indians got a massive boost going into lunch. After lunch, Prior decided he wasn't going to value his wicket very much and would instead pull the short stuff, even with the legside full of fielders waiting for a catch. I remember Michael Clarke facing Morne Morkel earlier this year. He got an absolute hammering from Morkel, far more aggressive than anything Sharma managed, but he stayed in there, refusing to play the pull shot. He valued his wicket highly and walked off with a century. Wouldn't it be nice to see an English batter with half of that pride and passion?

 

[boogiespinner]

Ouch! The loss of Moeen Ali was the killer. Last ball before lunch, the Indians looked short of answers and looked a little dejected. Ali played it terribly, not for the first time against a short ball (he will get plenty of them from now on) and the Indians got a massive boost going into lunch. After lunch, Prior decided he wasn't going to value his wicket very much and would instead pull the short stuff, even with the legside full of fielders waiting for a catch. I remember Michael Clarke facing Morne Morkel earlier this year. He got an absolute hammering from Morkel, far more aggressive than anything Sharma managed, but he stayed in there, refusing to play the pull shot. He valued his wicket highly and walked off with a century. Wouldn't it be nice to see an English batter with half of that pride and passion?

I do think it's deceptively easy to make judgments in hindsight - I mean, Jadeja went after England last night, one-day mode, and hit a blistering 60 odd which was huge both for runs and psychological impact. But yes it does seem that we fell into a trap. The short stuff doesn't threaten the wicket if it's bouncing over so that's fine and the odd single and extras will do while you see off the new ball.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Ouch! The loss of Moeen Ali was the killer. Last ball before lunch, the Indians looked short of answers and looked a little dejected. Ali played it terribly, not for the first time against a short ball (he will get plenty of them from now on) and the Indians got a massive boost going into lunch. After lunch, Prior decided he wasn't going to value his wicket very much and would instead pull the short stuff, even with the legside full of fielders waiting for a catch. I remember Michael Clarke facing Morne Morkel earlier this year. He got an absolute hammering from Morkel, far more aggressive than anything Sharma managed, but he stayed in there, refusing to play the pull shot. He valued his wicket highly and walked off with a century. Wouldn't it be nice to see an English batter with half of that pride and passion?

Mate, that sounds like you're talking about football there in the last paragraph! Do you think they're playing with that (low) level of pride? I've commented elsewhere about the fact that they may all be suffering from a little bit of 'Been there, seen that, done that' and are all comfortable in their jobs as such. But, as a someone who doesn't bat, I am very baffled as to how inept they are at dealing with the short stuff - what's the solution?

Same with the bowlers, all of the commentators go on about that they all bowl too short and then the oppo come on and bowl full and skittle us for minimum runs, next time we play we bowl short again. Looks and seems crazy?

 

[SLA]

Mate, that sounds like you're talking about football there in the last paragraph! Do you think they're playing with that (low) level of pride? I've commented elsewhere about the fact that they may all be suffering from a little bit of 'Been there, seen that, done that' and are all comfortable in their jobs as such. But, as a someone who doesn't bat, I am very baffled as to how inept they are at dealing with the short stuff - what's the solution?

Same with the bowlers, all of the commentators go on about that they all bowl too short and then the oppo come on and bowl full and skittle us for minimum runs, next time we play we bowl short again. Looks and seems crazy?

English cricket has a massive culture problem at the minute. Its being run like a cross between a management speak seminar and an old boys club. If your face doesn't "fit" or you have unorthodox or challenging opinions or insights, you're out. Cricketing ability is not just irrelevant but is actively discouraged. Success is punished (leading run scorer and best player is dropped, ostracised and publically vilified), failure is rewarded (incompetent coach is promoted, previously incompetent coach is reinstated, incompetent captain is retained indefinitely).


I wouldn't be suprised if they dropped Ballance for scoring too many runs and thus "showing up" his captain.

If you played a 5 test series between England vs England discards of the past 12 months. England discards would win 5-0, winning each test by an innings.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I understand sticking with players and giving them a chance, but that just doesn't always happen. Carberry was very badly treated. Nobody in the ECB can defend that statement because it is fact. Compton was treated, pretty much, as harshly. In the midst of that you have Cook consistenly failing his team mates with the bat and, quite often, in the field. The double standards are immense.

It is all compounded by a culture of selfishness. Cook has, to all intense and purposes, said that he won't walk away from the England job because he believes he is the right man for the job. It will take someone telling him he has lost the captaincy. We've also had Prior playing this summer when he clearly wasn't fully fit or in the right frame of mind. There was no thought, at all, about doing what is right for the team or being honest with his team mates and the coaching staff. This is all coming from the two men who were complicit in booting Pietersen out of the team for being too arrogant and selfish. It's laughable. We only have to go back a further 6-7 months to see Swann going on an Ashes tour when he knew he wasn't fit enough. It reflects badly on the players and just as badly on the coaching staff. What the hell are they doing inbetween matches? Are they not watching the players and assessing them?

Very few people care if Pietersen is arrogant or selfish. After all, wasn't that bloke with the dodgy bleached hair and swagger very arrogant and selfish 9 years ago? Of course he was. He has never changed the player/person he is and was. I can understand him being dropped if his performances dropped below the standard of the rest of the team. That didn't happen, so to use the excuse that that idiot Downton did about him not being interested was a joke.

Pietersen keeps saying he's desperate to get back in the England. I'd like to see him back in the team, but it can't happen whilst Cook and certain people in the ECB are there.

 

[boogiespinner]

League game today and by quirks of fate I was handed the ball! Opposition were below strength and 1 short, and we racked up around 250 (one opener scored 128!) and our opening bowlers went through them so I was given a twirl at the last wicket.

My bowling was too loopy but aside from one monstrous six over cow corner from a left hander I escaped too much punishment. And in the last half of my second over I bowled two balls which were as good as I have bowled. The last ball of my second over was to the RH bat, and was comfortably going down leg. I think the batsman left it to collect the wide, but it turned in hard - hey, ferociously! - to hit his pads. I turned to the umpire to make an academic appeal, and turned back to find that the guys were celebrating the wicket - bowled! Apparently it had gone between his legs onto the stumps. Game over and I had 2-0-12-1.

Nice thing is that the practice really is making a difference. I produced two deliveries I was really happy with, the ball felt fine and not at all alien in my hand throughout, the hand release was fine, it's the action as a whole I need to work on.

 

[shahidpak]

We had a good game yesterday. The pitch had plenty of turn and reasonable bounce. We had a couple of first team batters playing for us (including a batter who used to be with Lancs and the first team captain). It's always good to play with players who've played a good 15-20 years with and against pro's. One of them was fielding bat/pad for me, right in the batter's face. I don't always find fielders prepared to field there. They were coming up with some good plans too for certain batters. That's another thing I don't always get from the keeper and the slips - feedback and advice.

We batted first (mainly because 5 of the players were late because they couldn't find the club). I was sent in to bat at 4 and found myself batting after only about 6 or 7 overs and against the opening bowlers. They were reasonable bowlers but nothing special. One bowler was moving the ball in the air and off the pitch but was bowling wide of off-stump. The other bowler was getting it through at about 70mph, but was bowling everything back of a length. His fielders were telling him to pitch it up and get me on the front foot. I would have been happy with that, but he couldn't bowl a good length. As a result, I was happy to leave the short pitch stuff to bounce over the stumps. I was batting with the first team captain and he called me through for a quick single - I didn't make it in time and was run out. Disappointed with that. I probably should have turned the run down because I'm not exactly the quickest runner you will see. I probably should back up a bit more too.

The other players turned up and we managed to get 151 before declaring after 40 overs.

We had a left-arm spinner (plays 1st team and 2nd team). He opened at one end with the 1st team captain bowling his very part-time medium pace. I think we put down about 4 catches, all to the left-arm spinner and all very easy catches. One of the fielders who put a couple of catches down is very new to cricket and is not a natural sportsman. Really, he has no coordination so when the ball is lobbed up to him we are all expecting him to spill it, which he duly did. But we stil encourage him. In a friendly game like this nobody gets on anyone's back about it. However, he dropped the second catch and sat on the floor as the batters were running. I was shouting at him to get up and get the ball. He eventually did and then walked off the pitch shouting "I'll never be able to do it. I don't know what I was thinking" and words to that effect. So, he walked off and left us with 10 men (not sure we will see him again).

I then came on to bowl and first ball had one skied up right back at me and I managed to spill it. I couldn't believe it. The easiest catch I'd probably ever have and I dropped it. I hadn't dropped a catch in 3 years and then dropped two in the slips last week and now this one. Very sloppy and I paid the price with that batter hitting a few runs off me. Throughout my 10 overs I had another 3 catches put down. I was bowling mostly those slider/sidespinners and bowled quite a few very good balls and finished with 2 for 43 from my 10 overs. Could easily have been 4 or 5 for 30 if the catches had been taken. The left-arm spinner bowled about 15 or 16 overs and picked up 6 wickets for about 55 (I think he had 4 drops off his bowling also) and managed to bowl them out for 140 to win the match. Not a great pitch and not great fielding (even with 10 men for most of the game), but it was an entertaining game in the end and my bowling was decent. I'd give myself 7 out of 10. Those sliders were drifting in nicely. When I bowled the legspinners the batters were able to get after them a bit more. I've found that sloggers cope a lot better with the legspinners, even with a bit of dip on the ball. The sliders, with that decent amount of drift, cause a lot more problems to sloggers. It's the other way around for proper batters.

I want to ask you a question, when you say slider do you mean the orthodox back spinner or the complete 90° sidespinner (im curious because you said they were drifting) and if you bowled the complete 90° sidespinner how did you get wickets ???

 

[shahidpak]

BTW is there a thread about bowling plans ???

 

[Cleanprophet]

I want to ask you a question, when you say slider do you mean the orthodox back spinner or the complete 90° sidespinner (im curious because you said they were drifting) and if you bowled the complete 90° sidespinner how did you get wickets ???

It's pretty much a sidespinner. If you watch any footage of Warne bowling the slider, it is eaxctly the same as that. The only difference is that I grip the ball a lot looser so that I get a fair bit of sidespin on it. The Warne slider has very little spin on it so it just slides on straight. I tend to bowl mine a little slower too so it does grip a bit more. But I can push it through a bit quicker and then behaves a bit more like a genuine slider. For me to get it to slide straight on, I'd have to hold the ball a bit deeper in my hand or just use my fingers a lot less.

 

[SLA]

It's pretty much a sidespinner. If you watch any footage of Warne bowling the slider, it is eaxctly the same as that. The only difference is that I grip the ball a lot looser so that I get a fair bit of sidespin on it. The Warne slider has very little spin on it so it just slides on straight. I tend to bowl mine a little slower too so it does grip a bit more. But I can push it through a bit quicker and then behaves a bit more like a genuine slider. For me to get it to slide straight on, I'd have to hold the ball a bit deeper in my hand or just use my fingers a lot less.

That would make it a knuckleball of some description.

On the contrary, if you watch the clips you see that the Warne slider had quite a lot of spin on it, that's what made it so effective, and hard for the batsmen to visually differentiate from his stock leg break. A mixture of backspin to get the ball to skid through, and sidespin to get it to drift in.