Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Cleanprophet]

Yes it's purely from the point that how can you gauge whether any of this is having a positive effect if you can't gauge the results at the other end under proper conditions. I can't tell if you're dragging down, over pitching, spinning the ball well or anything really even if you've grooved in this later release. It's all about results out in the middle! Imagine if you started bowling like this regularly, what would happen to your line and length? It could end up all over the place and you'd have spent all that time working on one thing and undoing other things completely.

Yeah, always best to have, at the very least, a set of stumps to bowl to. Ideally, you would have a batter too as that's even better for getting a sense of the length you want to bowl.

The second last ball looked a bit too much of a drag down to me. But that's not a bad sign if the ball has been getting released too early and slipping out. Dragging it down means it has been over-corrected a bit, but that's ok. It will happen. The last ball is exactly what you want to see (looks like it drifted a little bit as well).

The arm is high but that's not an issue if it is coming out nicely and spinning. I'd only worry about getting a lower arm if the ball isn't spinning. Not every legspinner needs a lower arm. A high arm is better for accuracy, so it's no bad thing at all.

I like how upright the whole action is as well. I wish my action was as upright as that. The head position is fairly steady throughout, which is very good. All in all, I'd say it's simply a question of bowling lots and lots and grooving that action.

 

[TomBowler97]

Yeah, always best to have, at the very least, a set of stumps to bowl to. Ideally, you would have a batter too as that's even better for getting a sense of the length you want to bowl.

The second last ball looked a bit too much of a drag down to me. But that's not a bad sign if the ball has been getting released too early and slipping out. Dragging it down means it has been over-corrected a bit, but that's ok. It will happen. The last ball is exactly what you want to see (looks like it drifted a little bit as well).

The arm is high but that's not an issue if it is coming out nicely and spinning. I'd only worry about getting a lower arm if the ball isn't spinning. Not every legspinner needs a lower arm. A high arm is better for accuracy, so it's no bad thing at all.

I like how upright the whole action is as well. I wish my action was as upright as that. The head position is fairly steady throughout, which is very good. All in all, I'd say it's simply a question of bowling lots and lots and grooving that action.

That's great! Thankyou very much

 

[boogiespinner]

I'll leave it up to C Cleanprophet for a full analysis as he's a lot better at the technical stuff than I am! But I will say that you should never practise without at least a roughly marked 22 yards

I love practising over shorter distances! For match readiness I'd agree but for developing the spinning action I've found shorter practice very helpful... I see it as the equivalent of a musician practising a piece slowly.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I love practising over shorter distances! For match readiness I'd agree but for developing the spinning action I've found shorter practice very helpful... I see it as the equivalent of a musician practising a piece slowly.

I reckon there's merit in it if you're looking at something very specific and learning something new - e.g. trying to bowl with different seam presentation, more/less over-spin or side-spin, but for general consistency and repetitiveness, I reckon you need to bowl 22 yards. Also surely must help with the muscle memory and strength?

 

[Cleanprophet]

I love practising over shorter distances! For match readiness I'd agree but for developing the spinning action I've found shorter practice very helpful... I see it as the equivalent of a musician practising a piece slowly.

I think (might be wrong) that GoldenArm was referring more to having an area marked out for bowling from when bowling the full distance rather than anything about bowling over short distances.

Bowling over a short distance can be very useful for beginners and for those who are trying something new in their action.

 

[GoldenArm]

I think (might be wrong) that GoldenArm was referring more to having an area marked out for bowling from when bowling the full distance rather than anything about bowling over short distances.

Bowling over a short distance can be very useful for beginners and for those who are trying something new in their action.

Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at, definitely a place for practicing over a clearly marked shorter distance before you step up to 22. I learned the bosie exactly that way and god it made it easier. Can't imagine trying to learn the wrong un over the full 22 straight away! As long as you are sort of vaguely scientific about what you're doing you're onto a winner. It's just aimless practice that's dangerous. Btw C Cleanprophet you were bang on about my release sneaking into a top spinner, put a mat down today and low and behold there were a lot of straight breaks, out numbering the leg breaks in fact. Gonna take some work to get that side spin back consistently now. Think I'd got a bit too much of the fingers doing the work and not enough of the wrist.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Just back from a net session with Tony M, for the first time in weeks I bowled with a ball. New action looks very promising, Tony M reckons good improvement overall. Video later.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Btw C Cleanprophet you were bang on about my release sneaking into a top spinner, put a mat down today and low and behold there were a lot of straight breaks, out numbering the leg breaks in fact. Gonna take some work to get that side spin back consistently now. Think I'd got a bit too much of the fingers doing the work and not enough of the wrist.

It was hard to tell for sure, but I just got the feeling that the release looked a bit more topspin than legspin. Plus, of course, you mentioned that not many balls were turning. This is a problem I've been having and I think, in a way, we're both probably suffering from the same sort of problem. I could be wrong, but you may also be losing your legspin position because of that little lean away. This time last year I was turning the ball square and even during winter nets in Jan and Feb I was turning it too much (the same problem you were having at times). Now, I'm struggling to get much sideways movement and I have no doubt it is because of that lean away. My lean away is far, far more pronounced that yours. That's why I wouldn't say for sure that this is the problem you are having. For me, there is no doubt. I worked on jumping into the line of the stumps and it worked at first but now the lean away is possibly even worse.

The way I am going to try and combat it is to look to get my chest pushing down the line of off-stump (ie at the target). Maybe you could try and do something similar? As I say, your lean to the left isn't as bad as mine but then I always did lean to the left and still produce big legspinners, so maybe your action only needs a slight lean for you to lose ideal position. Obviously, the difference in hand/wrist position for a topspinner and a legspinner is quite small, so it would take much of a lean to the left to turn a legspinner into a ball that is mostly topspin. It is mainly just your chest and head that move a bit to the left and maybe aiming to push your chest down that same line that you are looking to get your front arm on will correct the topspin issue? Worth a try.

The one thing I am going to focus on is landing my front foot on a line that my front arm, then my head and chest push through, with my right foot, right shoulder and head all finishing on that same line. It's almost as if there is an invisible vertical pole where your front foot lands and you want to push your head and chest through that pole with your bowling shoulder/arm and hips rotating around it.

 

[GoldenArm]

It was hard to tell for sure, but I just got the feeling that the release looked a bit more topspin than legspin. Plus, of course, you mentioned that not many balls were turning. This is a problem I've been having and I think, in a way, we're both probably suffering from the same sort of problem. I could be wrong, but you may also be losing your legspin position because of that little lean away. This time last year I was turning the ball square and even during winter nets in Jan and Feb I was turning it too much (the same problem you were having at times). Now, I'm struggling to get much sideways movement and I have no doubt it is because of that lean away. My lean away is far, far more pronounced that yours. That's why I wouldn't say for sure that this is the problem you are having. For me, there is no doubt. I worked on jumping into the line of the stumps and it worked at first but now the lean away is possibly even worse.

The way I am going to try and combat it is to look to get my chest pushing down the line of off-stump (ie at the target). Maybe you could try and do something similar? As I say, your lean to the left isn't as bad as mine but then I always did lean to the left and still produce big legspinners, so maybe your action only needs a slight lean for you to lose ideal position. Obviously, the difference in hand/wrist position for a topspinner and a legspinner is quite small, so it would take much of a lean to the left to turn a legspinner into a ball that is mostly topspin. It is mainly just your chest and head that move a bit to the left and maybe aiming to push your chest down that same line that you are looking to get your front arm on will correct the topspin issue? Worth a try.

The one thing I am going to focus on is landing my front foot on a line that my front arm, then my head and chest push through, with my right foot, right shoulder and head all finishing on that same line. It's almost as if there is an invisible vertical pole where your front foot lands and you want to push your head and chest through that pole with your bowling shoulder/arm and hips rotating around it.

Yeah that sounds spot on for the ideal body action. I actually spent an hour yesterday bowling and to be honest I still wasn't bowling well, I left feeling a bit despondent. But I was reading through my new book Worlds Greatest Leg Spin bowlers and I was struck by some of the photos. I could see quite clearly that many of the old time leggies made use of their thumbs in their grip. Now I've always bowled with the thumb off the ball but I decided to play around with actually keeping it on and the results were very surprising. I actually found I had a greater degree of control and my side spin had returned. I think because the thumb acts as both a support and a rudder and encourages more use of the wrist rather than the fingers. This could well become a permanent change! Has anyone else changed their grip like this one way or the other?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Mine just lays against the ball, might support it in some way I guess.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Yeah that sounds spot on for the ideal body action. I actually spent an hour yesterday bowling and to be honest I still wasn't bowling well, I left feeling a bit despondent. But I was reading through my new book Worlds Greatest Leg Spin bowlers and I was struck by some of the photos. I could see quite clearly that many of the old time leggies made use of their thumbs in their grip. Now I've always bowled with the thumb off the ball but I decided to play around with actually keeping it on and the results were very surprising. I actually found I had a greater degree of control and my side spin had returned. I think because the thumb acts as both a support and a rudder and encourages more use of the wrist rather than the fingers. This could well become a permanent change! Has anyone else changed their grip like this one way or the other?

I do remember reading someone on another forum suggesting to use the thumb a bit more to give more control.

If the issue is that the ball is slipping out of the hand (which is usually what is happening when a legspinner is attempted and the ball comes out with only topspin), then I imagine that using the thumb will help prevent that from happening. I've never tried it myself but may give it a go. I would tend to think about it being only temporary rather than permanent because it will reduce the amount of revs you can get on the ball. But, if you can still get a good amount of spin and with good control, then you could well keep using the thumb. You always have the option of not using the thumb on the ball further down the line if you want to.

 

[GoldenArm]

I do remember reading someone on another forum suggesting to use the thumb a bit more to give more control.

If the issue is that the ball is slipping out of the hand (which is usually what is happening when a legspinner is attempted and the ball comes out with only topspin), then I imagine that using the thumb will help prevent that from happening. I've never tried it myself but may give it a go. I would tend to think about it being only temporary rather than permanent because it will reduce the amount of revs you can get on the ball. But, if you can still get a good amount of spin and with good control, then you could well keep using the thumb. You always have the option of not using the thumb on the ball further down the line if you want to.

The problem for me is that I have quite small hands so even though I've trained myself to have strong fingers I'm still a bit at a disadvantage. I'm going to keep up with this for the next few bowling sessions and see how it goes. I've got an hour with my coach tonight so I'll get him to film and I'll post it up later but I really do feel like I might have found a solution to a long standing problem here. It will certainly make the flipper harder to pick as well!

 

[Cleanprophet]

The problem for me is that I have quite small hands so even though I've trained myself to have strong fingers I'm still a bit at a disadvantage. I'm going to keep up with this for the next few bowling sessions and see how it goes. I've got an hour with my coach tonight so I'll get him to film and I'll post it up later but I really do feel like I might have found a solution to a long standing problem here. It will certainly make the flipper harder to pick as well!

Well, after trying for 30mins in the nets today, I would say absolutely stick with it. As I say, I'd seen someone mention putting the thumb on the ball and I dismissed it as most legspin coaches would tell you not use your thumb at all. I have to say, I tried it today and immediately the ball was turning square. I couldn't believe it. Not one single ball had anything but a spot on legspin release position. I'm not sure why it works but it does.

One thing I noticed about your action was that you hold the ball very loosely, just like I do. As a result, we both generate a lot of spin with the fingers but it may also be a grip that is vunerable to the ball slipping out of the hand, so the thumb is useful. I never used to use the thumb and it did feel a bit odd to have the thumb on the ball, but there's no question it worked. In fact, I think a fair few balls were borderline sidespinners. I'll post some videos later today.

 

[GoldenArm]

Well, after trying for 30mins in the nets today, I would say absolutely stick with it. As I say, I'd seen someone mention putting the thumb on the ball and I dismissed it as most legspin coaches would tell you not use your thumb at all. I have to say, I tried it today and immediately the ball was turning square. I couldn't believe it. Not one single ball had anything but a spot on legspin release position. I'm not sure why it works but it does.

One thing I noticed about your action was that you hold the ball very loosely, just like I do. As a result, we both generate a lot of spin with the fingers but it may also be a grip that is vunerable to the ball slipping out of the hand, so the thumb is useful. I never used to use the thumb and it did feel a bit odd to have the thumb on the ball, but there's no question it worked. In fact, I think a fair few balls were borderline sidespinners. I'll post some videos later today.

a picture is worth a thousand words as far as that goes then! you can immediately see a great shape on the ball there and its turning nicely. i could see on the video that you put your thumb in the same place i do as well, not actually on the seam but on the leather just underneath it lightly. i think this has the effect of just forcing your wrist to come through at the angle to which the thumb is pointing which is away towards sort of third slip or gully. if its fingers alone doing all this supporting work then it stands to reason that unless they are especially long and strong theres a greater chance of the seams position being anywhere between a leggie and a topple without you being able to control it precisely or consistently. i'm really pleased someone else has seen results doing this, it gives me the impetus to go away and keep at it.

 

[Cleanprophet]

a picture is worth a thousand words as far as that goes then! you can immediately see a great shape on the ball there and its turning nicely. i could see on the video that you put your thumb in the same place i do as well, not actually on the seam but on the leather just underneath it lightly. i think this has the effect of just forcing your wrist to come through at the angle to which the thumb is pointing which is away towards sort of third slip or gully. if its fingers alone doing all this supporting work then it stands to reason that unless they are especially long and strong theres a greater chance of the seams position being anywhere between a leggie and a topple without you being able to control it precisely or consistently. i'm really pleased someone else has seen results doing this, it gives me the impetus to go away and keep at it.

You're right about the position of my thumb on the seam. It is just below the seam. That's mainly because I grip the ball quite loosely so I could only get the thumb on the seam by having the ball a bit deeper in my hand, which is something I've never done. You could be right about the effect it has on the wrist as well (I've not given it much thought but that sounds logical that the thumb on the ball ensures the wrist into the correct position).

I don't know about you, but it did feel quite odd to me with that thumb on the ball. After about 15min-20min, I started to feel more comfortable doing it. At first, it felt like I couldn't really rip the ball or bowl it at full pace. I still couldn't quite do it by the end but I was putting a lot more into it compared to when I first started doing it. Actually, you made that point before about it helping with disguising the flipper. I thought the exact same thing when I watched it back today. My grip when bowling the flipper is very similar and looks the same. I'm sure that with more work we can both use the thumb on the ball whilst bowling flat out as well as using the flipper a bit more effectively.

I still have that lean away, much more so when I run and jump into the crease. I did some work today and getting that line through my front foot position. I just need to do a bit more work. I'm not aiming to get right over my front foot. Just a little closer to it so that I reduce that lean a bit. As you said previously, the lean away makes it difficult to get consistency and the odd ball does lose its line because of it.

 

[GoldenArm]

Well we didn't film at all last night but it was an interesting session. My coach uttered the words that always set alarm bells ringing for me. 'Let's try changing your run up'. I mucked around with switching from a run in to a walk in many times over the years and I've always regretted it. But there is clearly something wrong with my run up fundamentally because I'm not the bowler I should be after nearly ten years of bowling leggies. So I went along with it and to honest had good results coming off a 3-4 pace walk in, but I wasn't convinced at all by the end. So I bowled for an hour this evening and I was finally convinced. I really got a good rhythm going with good tweak on the ball and a decent level of accuracy. It's not as though I'm even losing any pace on the ball either to be honest so it looks like this is the way forward. I never thought I'd say this again but the walk in is back! It's just going to be case of hundreds of reps now to really lock it in. The way I see it is I'm bowling at club batsmen not test players so becoming effective off 3-4 paces with control of flight and spin like an old school leggie (Tich, Grum etc...) is going to be far more useful to me in the long run, rather than coming off a run and trying to fizz it in at 55 mph and having no consistency or control. I'm just going to have to be really controlled with my form so sloppiness or tightness doesn't creep in from trying to generate too much power at the crease. If I keep it languorous and relaxed the power comes naturally anyway it seems.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Well we didn't film at all last night but it was an interesting session. My coach uttered the words that always set alarm bells ringing for me. 'Let's try changing your run up'. I mucked around with switching from a run in to a walk in many times over the years and I've always regretted it. But there is clearly something wrong with my run up fundamentally because I'm not the bowler I should be after nearly ten years of bowling leggies. So I went along with it and to honest had good results coming off a 3-4 pace walk in, but I wasn't convinced at all by the end. So I bowled for an hour this evening and I was finally convinced. I really got a good rhythm going with good tweak on the ball and a decent level of accuracy. It's not as though I'm even losing any pace on the ball either to be honest so it looks like this is the way forward. I never thought I'd say this again but the walk in is back! It's just going to be case of hundreds of reps now to really lock it in. The way I see it is I'm bowling at club batsmen not test players so becoming effective off 3-4 paces with control of flight and spin like an old school leggie (Tich, Grum etc...) is going to be far more useful to me in the long run, rather than coming off a run and trying to fizz it in at 55 mph and having no consistency or control. I'm just going to have to be really controlled with my form so sloppiness or tightness doesn't creep in from trying to generate too much power at the crease. If I keep it languorous and relaxed the power comes naturally anyway it seems.

Be interesting to see this video'd and see how it's coming together. I've come a massive distance since making the decision back in September to develop a consistent and repeatable run-up. I'm in a phase at the moment where I'm repeating the action 99% of the time without a ball. In the last 4 weeks I've bowled once with a ball and that was while Tony M was there and it went reasonably well. Having looked at the video from that day I change what I do once I've got a ball in hand and decrease the dynamism for some reason, to get it spinning or accuracy I reckon, but it's subconscious. What I was surprised at was the fact that despite the fact that this is a massive over-haul of the way I bowl, the new approach worked okay apart from that one small glitch. I've identified the glitch and reckon it's only a case of doing what you're about to embark on and that's repeat-repeat - repeat and get this method ingrained.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Well we didn't film at all last night but it was an interesting session. My coach uttered the words that always set alarm bells ringing for me. 'Let's try changing your run up'. I mucked around with switching from a run in to a walk in many times over the years and I've always regretted it. But there is clearly something wrong with my run up fundamentally because I'm not the bowler I should be after nearly ten years of bowling leggies. So I went along with it and to honest had good results coming off a 3-4 pace walk in, but I wasn't convinced at all by the end. So I bowled for an hour this evening and I was finally convinced. I really got a good rhythm going with good tweak on the ball and a decent level of accuracy. It's not as though I'm even losing any pace on the ball either to be honest so it looks like this is the way forward. I never thought I'd say this again but the walk in is back! It's just going to be case of hundreds of reps now to really lock it in. The way I see it is I'm bowling at club batsmen not test players so becoming effective off 3-4 paces with control of flight and spin like an old school leggie (Tich, Grum etc...) is going to be far more useful to me in the long run, rather than coming off a run and trying to fizz it in at 55 mph and having no consistency or control. I'm just going to have to be really controlled with my form so sloppiness or tightness doesn't creep in from trying to generate too much power at the crease. If I keep it languorous and relaxed the power comes naturally anyway it seems.

I had a 4 step walk in and decided to try a longer run in to generate more energy on the ball. I was running in from 7 paces rather than the previous 4. It felt ok, but the batter facing it said he didn't feel the ball was any different from when I walked in, in terms of energy, pace etc. In fact, he said I should consider going back to the old approach (which I've been doing anyway whilst working on fixing the release problems I was having). What I found, when looking back, was that despite running in from almost twice the distance, I just wasn't really motoring much at all. The most recent thing I've done is go to more of a Warne type approach, which is pretty much the same approach I've always had but just starting a few paces back and only really increasing speed in the last couple of steps.

It's all about rhythm and balance at the end of the day and, I suppose, if you have more rhythm from a walk in than from a run in, then you should stick with the walk in. After all, the aim is the beat the batter through the air, not off the pitch. You are sure to have more control and flight off a balanced and rhythmical approach to the crease, so that's what you should stick with rather than looking for more pace from the run up just because you want to get the ball through a bit quicker. We all know, getting the ball through quicker is only better if it is coming through quicker with drift and dip. Otherwise, quicker is just easier to hit.

 

[boogiespinner]

The way I see it is I'm bowling at club batsmen not test players so becoming effective off 3-4 paces with control of flight and spin like an old school leggie (Tich, Grum etc...) is going to be far more useful to me in the long run, rather than coming off a run and trying to fizz it in at 55 mph and having no consistency or control.

After lots of solo practice last season I was at the point where, once really well warmed up, I could bowl my best stuff stuff off of one pace - I even swear I could hear the ball humming a little. But add the run up and a jump and the magic went. More accurate but actually slower and far less spin.

It was taking me dozens of deliveries to get there though so I couldn't bowl one pace in a match! It would be quite legal though.

I really feel that for me I have to bring the run up to the simplest point where I am learning to master the rest of the action, otherwise it is like trying to run before I can walk - literally. If that means many hours of one pace practice so be it

 

[Cleanprophet]

Had another 30mins in the nets today using the thumb on the ball. Just watched the footage back and it's looking good. The first 5min-10mins were not great. I was producing most balls with an incorrect release (pretty much the topspin position with the ball slipping out a little bit). I imagine I simply wasn't using the thumb as I had been yesterday because after about 10mins I was getting it spot on with lots of turn.

I was also using the longer approach to the crease and I tried a few balls flat out. Happily, it was coming out pretty much as I would want it to. My left shoulder is dropping a little bit, but my overall position is much more upright than it has been for months. I've no idea why that is but the whole action looks and feels much more like a proper legspin action. I'll post a little clip later today from right at the end when I was bowling, pretty much, flat out.