someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Five for 29 - good work. Beats my best bowling figures!
Five for 29 - good work. Beats my best bowling figures!
Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
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macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
There are a few out there. I have read most of them but was mainly focussed on anything to do with the flipper or grimmett. Warne quizzed any bradman era player he met about grimmett and his methods, especially his flipper.
Roland Perry wrote a couple of biographies about Warne. They are ok. Perry had access to Bradman and wrote several "cash-in" books based on that access, including bradmans all time greatest test team. Perry pestered Bradman right up to his death to drop grimmett and replace him with warne, which bradman would never do . Perry gives bradman a chance to include warne and drop grimmett even after warne is made one of wisdens 5 cricketers of the 20th century but bradman remained conviced that grimmett was a better bowler than warne. It was actually warnes mastery of grimmetts flipper that made bradman realise the true genius of grimmett. He had watched grimmett develop his flipper for a decade and even after , years later, benaud took it up at test level with success, bradman thought the flipper was a bit of a waste of time and interfered with the stock legbreak.
Probably the best book about warne is by an english guy the book is called " shane warne. flawed genius." or something like that.This has one of the best beginnings to a cricket book ever, and has a fair bit about warnes actual bowling.
One thing i found from the books was warne was first shown a flipper by jimmy higgs two years before potter showed him at the academy. which might explain why warne picked it up so soon after potter showed him. But there is also the question as to what type of flipper higgs bowled. I found some 1978 vca coaching books by frank tyson, when higgs was their spinner and the " flipper" they describe and demonstrate is in fact the "slider" backspinning topspinner of philpott.
GoldenArm;364921 said:
There are a few out there. I have read most of them but was mainly focussed on anything to do with the flipper or grimmett. Warne quizzed any bradman era player he met about grimmett and his methods, especially his flipper.
Roland Perry wrote a couple of biographies about Warne. They are ok. Perry had access to Bradman and wrote several "cash-in" books based on that access, including bradmans all time greatest test team. Perry pestered Bradman right up to his death to drop grimmett and replace him with warne, which bradman would never do . Perry gives bradman a chance to include warne and drop grimmett even after warne is made one of wisdens 5 cricketers of the 20th century but bradman remained conviced that grimmett was a better bowler than warne. It was actually warnes mastery of grimmetts flipper that made bradman realise the true genius of grimmett. He had watched grimmett develop his flipper for a decade and even after , years later, benaud took it up at test level with success, bradman thought the flipper was a bit of a waste of time and interfered with the stock legbreak.
Probably the best book about warne is by an english guy the book is called " shane warne. flawed genius." or something like that.This has one of the best beginnings to a cricket book ever, and has a fair bit about warnes actual bowling.
One thing i found from the books was warne was first shown a flipper by jimmy higgs two years before potter showed him at the academy. which might explain why warne picked it up so soon after potter showed him. But there is also the question as to what type of flipper higgs bowled. I found some 1978 vca coaching books by frank tyson, when higgs was their spinner and the " flipper" they describe and demonstrate is in fact the "slider" backspinning topspinner of philpott.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
What does everyone reckon the best length to bowl at is. I played against a bloke at the weekend who commended my bowling saying that it was good from several points of view but it would be so much better a yard shorter. We get told in games to bowl right under the batsmans nose, but I'm beginning to think this is more to do with inaccuracy because anything that is short and not on the stumps is obviously going to get hit miles. Whereas this bloke was saying that because mine were threatening the stumps he was very uneasy about playing the ball because it was turning and I had variations, but because my length was too long he was able to get the bat on the ball quite comfortably. His suggestion was that I bowled another yard shorter meaning about 4.5 - 5 yards from the stumps.
What does everyone reckon the best length to bowl at is. I played against a bloke at the weekend who commended my bowling saying that it was good from several points of view but it would be so much better a yard shorter. We get told in games to bowl right under the batsmans nose, but I'm beginning to think this is more to do with inaccuracy because anything that is short and not on the stumps is obviously going to get hit miles. Whereas this bloke was saying that because mine were threatening the stumps he was very uneasy about playing the ball because it was turning and I had variations, but because my length was too long he was able to get the bat on the ball quite comfortably. His suggestion was that I bowled another yard shorter meaning about 4.5 - 5 yards from the stumps.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
How do you that - post pic's on here like that? Yeah that aside Warne puts the ball in around the 5 yard mark, but he's bowling it at 50mph and more with masses of dip.
How do you that - post pic's on here like that? Yeah that aside Warne puts the ball in around the 5 yard mark, but he's bowling it at 50mph and more with masses of dip.
GoldenArm
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
i think its best to vary it up naturally. i am a tad inaccurate because i spin the ball so hard. its fairly common for me to toss up a couple of chest high leg side full tosses, just a few low full tosses or the odd rank half tracker. but when i get it right it tends to rove about of its own accord from yorker territory and even behind the batsman, right to the very fringes of the driving area and it causes the batsman merry hell. thats not to say i lack total control. i have a wrong un which i can place pretty accurately and thats not easy but with the stock leg break i always vary my spin, pace and as a result my length will change accordingly to the dip etc... Attacking the stumps is an absolute must but i think you can only do that if you are a big turner. i bowl most batsman out from quite a long way outside leg stump. if i start putting it on the stumps more often than not it goes right past them. sorry i'm wittering on here, i basically agree with you Dave, in ideal conditions where its turning bags and bouncing nicely you'd want it on what an old school cricket coach would call a 'good length' which is about 9 feet from the popping crease i reckon.
i think its best to vary it up naturally. i am a tad inaccurate because i spin the ball so hard. its fairly common for me to toss up a couple of chest high leg side full tosses, just a few low full tosses or the odd rank half tracker. but when i get it right it tends to rove about of its own accord from yorker territory and even behind the batsman, right to the very fringes of the driving area and it causes the batsman merry hell. thats not to say i lack total control. i have a wrong un which i can place pretty accurately and thats not easy but with the stock leg break i always vary my spin, pace and as a result my length will change accordingly to the dip etc... Attacking the stumps is an absolute must but i think you can only do that if you are a big turner. i bowl most batsman out from quite a long way outside leg stump. if i start putting it on the stumps more often than not it goes right past them. sorry i'm wittering on here, i basically agree with you Dave, in ideal conditions where its turning bags and bouncing nicely you'd want it on what an old school cricket coach would call a 'good length' which is about 9 feet from the popping crease i reckon.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
one last batch of images. Shane Warne pitch maps for every ball bowled across 2 innings in an Australian Ashes test. invaluable information i reckon, especially in a graphic form...
in other words, anywhere from 3-6 yards from the stumps. if an average batsman stands half in-half out of his crease to a leggie then probably 1-4 yards from his front foot. 1 yard means he can get his foot to the pitch, 2-3 yards is probably the ideal length for causing problems - hes either got to advance out of his crease to get to the pitch, or face the tricky decision of front foot or back foot, either of which is going to cause its own issues if the ball turns and/or bounces!
this is all new information to me, i never thought to google for pitch maps and hawkeye data until just now. ive got some targets to aim for with this new data, before i was just guessing. im going to buy a hula hoop and give it a shot at my next practice.
one last batch of images. Shane Warne pitch maps for every ball bowled across 2 innings in an Australian Ashes test. invaluable information i reckon, especially in a graphic form...
in other words, anywhere from 3-6 yards from the stumps. if an average batsman stands half in-half out of his crease to a leggie then probably 1-4 yards from his front foot. 1 yard means he can get his foot to the pitch, 2-3 yards is probably the ideal length for causing problems - hes either got to advance out of his crease to get to the pitch, or face the tricky decision of front foot or back foot, either of which is going to cause its own issues if the ball turns and/or bounces!
this is all new information to me, i never thought to google for pitch maps and hawkeye data until just now. ive got some targets to aim for with this new data, before i was just guessing. im going to buy a hula hoop and give it a shot at my next practice.
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
" Genarally speaking, a good length ball for an adult slow bowler is about 3 yards from the batting crease" Clarrie Grimmett. But he goes on to add lots of qualification , the main one being no two batsmen are the same and an ideal length varies according to this and slowness of the pitch etc.
every aussie legspinner from mailey to jenner said as a rule you usually have to pitch up more in england as against in aus where you need to be slightly shorter. Grimmett favoured an overpitched ball against one too short. You have to land the ball so it can do some business off the pitch before it reaches the batsman though, dont you think?
Dave, I have read your description of where you were advised to pitch( front of batsmen at full stretch) and thought that would be too full for around here, but it has worked for you and your conditions this season you would have to say.
" Genarally speaking, a good length ball for an adult slow bowler is about 3 yards from the batting crease" Clarrie Grimmett. But he goes on to add lots of qualification , the main one being no two batsmen are the same and an ideal length varies according to this and slowness of the pitch etc.
every aussie legspinner from mailey to jenner said as a rule you usually have to pitch up more in england as against in aus where you need to be slightly shorter. Grimmett favoured an overpitched ball against one too short. You have to land the ball so it can do some business off the pitch before it reaches the batsman though, dont you think?
Dave, I have read your description of where you were advised to pitch( front of batsmen at full stretch) and thought that would be too full for around here, but it has worked for you and your conditions this season you would have to say.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
what do you think the main differences are in wickets between Australia and England? ive heard that Australian pitches tend to have more bounce than English ones, in general? if thats the case then it would make sense to pitch the ball slightly fuller, as it isnt going to carry as much off the wicket.
with regards landing the ball so that it has a chance to move off the pitch - it makes sense. but i find i generally get batsmen into more trouble when it lands 6" in front of the furthest point they can reach their bat to, sometimes slightly fuller. it depends on the shots they want to play. players that like to sweep i will try to bowl full to encourage them, they should pretty much give away their wicket eventually. players that like to play straight i definitely bowl full to encourage the drive, the more technically correct a player is, the easier i find it to cause them problems. all of my wickets are of the most skilled batsman in the team, they try to play straight and the small amounts of turn before the ball reaches the bat finds edges, or misses the bat and gets them stumped as they move onto the front foot (maybe i need to convince the captain to open the bowling with me lol. when im bowling at the tail they either swing and miss or get lucky all the time). good aggressive players are the ones i struggle with, so maybe i need to trial a shorter length for this type of player. if nothing else it may contain them to more defensive shots and build some pressure/impatience and force a mistake (tricky to achieve when you only get 3-4 overs per match though).
one massive problem i may have here is how on earth do i vary my length without changing my speed and without bowling with a flat trajectory?! the ball naturally lands full, and i really loop it up but with good forward momentum as well. im not entirely sure how i can drop it 2 yards shorter without either reducing the effort of my action or bowling flatter. both of which are going to hinder the spin and its effects. any thoughts? i already bowl with lots of overspin, so additional dip isnt really available.
macca;364978 said:
what do you think the main differences are in wickets between Australia and England? ive heard that Australian pitches tend to have more bounce than English ones, in general? if thats the case then it would make sense to pitch the ball slightly fuller, as it isnt going to carry as much off the wicket.
with regards landing the ball so that it has a chance to move off the pitch - it makes sense. but i find i generally get batsmen into more trouble when it lands 6" in front of the furthest point they can reach their bat to, sometimes slightly fuller. it depends on the shots they want to play. players that like to sweep i will try to bowl full to encourage them, they should pretty much give away their wicket eventually. players that like to play straight i definitely bowl full to encourage the drive, the more technically correct a player is, the easier i find it to cause them problems. all of my wickets are of the most skilled batsman in the team, they try to play straight and the small amounts of turn before the ball reaches the bat finds edges, or misses the bat and gets them stumped as they move onto the front foot (maybe i need to convince the captain to open the bowling with me lol. when im bowling at the tail they either swing and miss or get lucky all the time). good aggressive players are the ones i struggle with, so maybe i need to trial a shorter length for this type of player. if nothing else it may contain them to more defensive shots and build some pressure/impatience and force a mistake (tricky to achieve when you only get 3-4 overs per match though).
one massive problem i may have here is how on earth do i vary my length without changing my speed and without bowling with a flat trajectory?! the ball naturally lands full, and i really loop it up but with good forward momentum as well. im not entirely sure how i can drop it 2 yards shorter without either reducing the effort of my action or bowling flatter. both of which are going to hinder the spin and its effects. any thoughts? i already bowl with lots of overspin, so additional dip isnt really available.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
This don't help - it sounds to me like I don't even know what you mean when you say it's fuller. I always understood that to mean closer to the stumps - is this wrong?
This don't help - it sounds to me like I don't even know what you mean when you say it's fuller. I always understood that to mean closer to the stumps - is this wrong?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
That'll be the magic application of dip - Warne style 55mph and it ends up 5 yards in front of the stumps. Try that - it's nigh on impossible!
Jim2109;365036 said:
That'll be the magic application of dip - Warne style 55mph and it ends up 5 yards in front of the stumps. Try that - it's nigh on impossible!
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
fuller means longer, closer to the stumps. the opposite of a short delivery.
youre probably right on that with regards Warne. i can get quite a lot of dip, on my full top spinner i can get loads, and tons of bounce as well. but im already at about maximum capacity on my dip, unless i can find even more revs from somewhere (im improving at about 15% per month though on a consistent basis) to get it dipping sharper.
maybe i dont have a choice but to lessen the flight or decrease the speed slightly. il have to try it out. the weather is awful today, i was going to try and get a practice in late this afternoon if i had time, but theres no chance with it raining
thinking about it, when you watch leg spinners that dont spin the ball that much they bowl with much less flight or at slower speeds. Adil Rashid is either slower or flatter, but he does get quite good revs on the ball. the young county leggies bowl quite slowly, around 45mph iirc. i reckon my average speed is probably around 45mph. as soon as i get a side-on video il know for sure!!
someblokecalleddave;365046 said:
fuller means longer, closer to the stumps. the opposite of a short delivery.
someblokecalleddave;365047 said:
youre probably right on that with regards Warne. i can get quite a lot of dip, on my full top spinner i can get loads, and tons of bounce as well. but im already at about maximum capacity on my dip, unless i can find even more revs from somewhere (im improving at about 15% per month though on a consistent basis) to get it dipping sharper.
maybe i dont have a choice but to lessen the flight or decrease the speed slightly. il have to try it out. the weather is awful today, i was going to try and get a practice in late this afternoon if i had time, but theres no chance with it raining
thinking about it, when you watch leg spinners that dont spin the ball that much they bowl with much less flight or at slower speeds. Adil Rashid is either slower or flatter, but he does get quite good revs on the ball. the young county leggies bowl quite slowly, around 45mph iirc. i reckon my average speed is probably around 45mph. as soon as i get a side-on video il know for sure!!
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
My dipping Leg Breaks I reckon are probably 35-40mph more the slower end of that. My faster balls as you say like Rashid are far flatter. But then that's an assumption. I noted last night that you seem to be almost fetishistic about what your balls are doing (F'nah F'nah) and that you seem to be observing everything that the ball does, whereas I don't recognise these things in my bowling because I'm just focused on 1. That it lands on the spot I want it to and that it then 2. turns in the direction I intended. I find that if I try and watch for the ball dipping or rotating I bowl rubbish! It comes down to the Philpott thing where you're focused on as little as possible?
I'm only aware of it when a batsman (As on Sunday) mentions it.
My dipping Leg Breaks I reckon are probably 35-40mph more the slower end of that. My faster balls as you say like Rashid are far flatter. But then that's an assumption. I noted last night that you seem to be almost fetishistic about what your balls are doing (F'nah F'nah) and that you seem to be observing everything that the ball does, whereas I don't recognise these things in my bowling because I'm just focused on 1. That it lands on the spot I want it to and that it then 2. turns in the direction I intended. I find that if I try and watch for the ball dipping or rotating I bowl rubbish! It comes down to the Philpott thing where you're focused on as little as possible?
I'm only aware of it when a batsman (As on Sunday) mentions it.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
i dont really think that i focus on what the ball is doing, my primary focus is on where its landing and what angle of rotation im putting on it (e.g. which way i want it to turn, how much by, and how much bounce). i decide on the rotation before i even take my run up, i know what i want to bowl in my head. then i focus on the spot i want to land the ball on, and then bowl it. but as soon as the ball leaves my hand i know whether its a good one or not, and then once ive taken my first follow through step my eyes adjust to follow the ball. generally i only see it for probably the last half of its length, but i can usually pick up fairly quickly if it is drifting or dipping, i see the seam position, and then i see what it does off the pitch.
in the nets i focus a lot more on what the ball is doing. in match situations my brain shuts down a little. i dont even consider my action unless its going really wrong. i still see the flight though. im not really distracting myself trying to look at the ball, i just see it.
maybe il try focussing even more on my line and length though and see what happens. it might help it might not, its always worth a try though.
someblokecalleddave;365066 said:
i dont really think that i focus on what the ball is doing, my primary focus is on where its landing and what angle of rotation im putting on it (e.g. which way i want it to turn, how much by, and how much bounce). i decide on the rotation before i even take my run up, i know what i want to bowl in my head. then i focus on the spot i want to land the ball on, and then bowl it. but as soon as the ball leaves my hand i know whether its a good one or not, and then once ive taken my first follow through step my eyes adjust to follow the ball. generally i only see it for probably the last half of its length, but i can usually pick up fairly quickly if it is drifting or dipping, i see the seam position, and then i see what it does off the pitch.
in the nets i focus a lot more on what the ball is doing. in match situations my brain shuts down a little. i dont even consider my action unless its going really wrong. i still see the flight though. im not really distracting myself trying to look at the ball, i just see it.
maybe il try focussing even more on my line and length though and see what happens. it might help it might not, its always worth a try though.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
I'm just watching the 1st one day game at the minute (Aus/Eng) watching Rashid. But Collingwood has just taken a wicket and they're speculating that it was thought out they're saying that Strauss has purposely left a gap on one side tempting the bat to try and put the ball in the gap. I kind of understand the theory and it's something that we can do and because of our potential to increase and reduce the bounce of the ball along with spin and therefore try and force an edge? So what might be the most basic approach to this tactic - would leaving a gap on Off-side be better than leaving a gap on the legside or maybe leave a gaping great hole to try and force the batsman to play forward. Which approach might be best with my off-stump attack with my leg breaks? Or am I talking out of my A**e here?
I'm just watching the 1st one day game at the minute (Aus/Eng) watching Rashid. But Collingwood has just taken a wicket and they're speculating that it was thought out they're saying that Strauss has purposely left a gap on one side tempting the bat to try and put the ball in the gap. I kind of understand the theory and it's something that we can do and because of our potential to increase and reduce the bounce of the ball along with spin and therefore try and force an edge? So what might be the most basic approach to this tactic - would leaving a gap on Off-side be better than leaving a gap on the legside or maybe leave a gaping great hole to try and force the batsman to play forward. Which approach might be best with my off-stump attack with my leg breaks? Or am I talking out of my A**e here?
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
first of all youve got to find a batsman that has both the knowledge and the skill to a) recognise the gap, and b) purposely look to aim a shot there. based on my own experience most club batsmen just look to hit the ball, and it goes wherever it goes. the higher up the chain you get the more likely such a tactic is to work i would think.
with regards the actual execution of such a tactic, id imagine it would work best if you identified a player with a favoured shot, and simply allowed them to play that shot. so for an easy example, a batsman loves to sweep to square leg. leave square leg open but restrict to 1 or 2 runs by leaving deep square leg in. try to restrict runs to all other areas. the batsmen then tries to exploit the easy single because he wants to get some runs and rotate the strike. let him exploit it a few times, then bowl something that looks sweepable but isnt and try to get a top edge or an LBW. that probably isnt the best example, but im yet to find a batsman that has looked to straight drive me in a match (only in the nets), which is by far the easiest situation to implement such a tactic.
considering playing straight is supposed to be the fundamental basic of batting, its amazing how many club players missed that coaching lesson lol. almost everyone looks to defend straight, and play shots sideways.
someblokecalleddave;365087 said:
first of all youve got to find a batsman that has both the knowledge and the skill to a) recognise the gap, and b) purposely look to aim a shot there. based on my own experience most club batsmen just look to hit the ball, and it goes wherever it goes. the higher up the chain you get the more likely such a tactic is to work i would think.
with regards the actual execution of such a tactic, id imagine it would work best if you identified a player with a favoured shot, and simply allowed them to play that shot. so for an easy example, a batsman loves to sweep to square leg. leave square leg open but restrict to 1 or 2 runs by leaving deep square leg in. try to restrict runs to all other areas. the batsmen then tries to exploit the easy single because he wants to get some runs and rotate the strike. let him exploit it a few times, then bowl something that looks sweepable but isnt and try to get a top edge or an LBW. that probably isnt the best example, but im yet to find a batsman that has looked to straight drive me in a match (only in the nets), which is by far the easiest situation to implement such a tactic.
considering playing straight is supposed to be the fundamental basic of batting, its amazing how many club players missed that coaching lesson lol. almost everyone looks to defend straight, and play shots sideways.
Sean
New Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Had my first training today and bowled for the first time since March.
Boy was I rusty. Bowling full toss after full toss followed by short wide balls spinning away. I got a few in the right areas, but I'll be looking to improve over the coming weeks before the season starts.
Had my first training today and bowled for the first time since March.
Boy was I rusty. Bowling full toss after full toss followed by short wide balls spinning away. I got a few in the right areas, but I'll be looking to improve over the coming weeks before the season starts.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Some bloke called batesy posted this elsewhere asking....
"I'm just curious as to how you would start off a spell.
Do you just bowl leg breaks for a few overs or do you put in a variation right away?
Do you put maxiumum revs on the ball right away or just slowly upthe revs?
Where do you aim to put the fist ball ( assuming its a right hander )
Thanks".
I think this is down to each individual and is affected by the state of the game, how many overs you're bowling, how good the batsman is, wind direction, your own form and more. If for instance in a 40 overs match where I'd expect 6 overs I'd probably start with my normal stock leg break on the off-stump turning it away from the bat. Then depending on how aggressive the batsman is explore the options trying to exploit weaknesses if the bat looks nervous, if he's aggresive keep that line and see what happens and then at the end of the over on the last ball put in a Wrong Un to give him something to think about while the other bowlers is doing his stuff.
Some bloke called batesy posted this elsewhere asking....
"I'm just curious as to how you would start off a spell.
Do you just bowl leg breaks for a few overs or do you put in a variation right away?
Do you put maxiumum revs on the ball right away or just slowly upthe revs?
Where do you aim to put the fist ball ( assuming its a right hander )
Thanks".
I think this is down to each individual and is affected by the state of the game, how many overs you're bowling, how good the batsman is, wind direction, your own form and more. If for instance in a 40 overs match where I'd expect 6 overs I'd probably start with my normal stock leg break on the off-stump turning it away from the bat. Then depending on how aggressive the batsman is explore the options trying to exploit weaknesses if the bat looks nervous, if he's aggresive keep that line and see what happens and then at the end of the over on the last ball put in a Wrong Un to give him something to think about while the other bowlers is doing his stuff.
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