Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

that seems about right. although i dont really like the idea of taking the game out of the umpires hands. i think that bad decisions are another way of getting wickets and has and should always be part of the game.

that goes both ways though, i think on average more people are givin not out when out when its in the umpires hands, i think it adds a little to the exitement, like with the 3rd umpire for runouts has. also regerding my last post, i think T/20 is more of a threat to ODIs than it is to test cricket.

 

[Mousey]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

I agree with all discussed above. Very good ideas and statements.

 

[breeno]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

I just want to see pitches have individual characteristics, I want to see the Waca fast and bouncy, Indian Pitches spinning HEAPS, and maybe one in 5 pitches being a batting track. We all saw that on bowling pitches, the game is THAT much more exciting, especially when the runs have to be earnt. That is how I judge a batsman, how many runs he scores on horrible pitches, not how many runs he scores on flat tracks.

I agree a new ball every 60 overs could be a good idea, I would prefer pitches to be lively once more again.

 

[Caesar]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

I look at Hayden's career as a reflection of the times. The guy is one of the most prolific batsmen in the world of the last decade, but he was incredibly limited. Take him off a flat track and he was very ordinary.

I echo breeno. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a good batting surface, but it's only one of many pitches available in our nuanced game. Bowlers and batsmen should have to develop their games to cope with a range of different types of pitches, that provide a range of conditions over a five day Test Match.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

one thing that doesnt seem to be happening as much is the deterioration of pitches. in some cases the pitches are much the same on day 5 as they were when the test began, enabling teams to chase down some monstrous scores, instead of the team batting last having to cope with worn pitches spinning more with some rough patches and cracks opening up. i think the only way to fix this is having stricter regulations on what you can and cant do to a pitch, including not as much work done to them during games.

 

[gbatman]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

What I love about lively wickets is that slow boring batsmen get removed. Batsmen are more desperate to but away bad balls and there are often more strokes played.

I really miss Sydney's Spin and Perth's Bounce and late cracks.

The first test in South Africa Where the ball swung (yes it's a Kookaburra) was fantastic to watch! I'd pay to see that.

I always look forward to Indai tests because it's the ultimate challenge and the ball really spins.

Changing the new ball might be ok but it might see spin bowling and reverse swing die a little. Perhaps a change at 70 overs...

Australia has been so good at cricket because we love the game and a large ammount of us play and watch it. The players we have had in the team are players who grew up watching the game on those traditional wickets. If we make cricket boring in this country we will lose it. Kids need to see the game and see the ball spinning, seaming and swinging and get excited about what they see and this will motivate them to play and emulate what they see. Kids need to know about these skills!

Australia needs to save cricket and go back to the glory days where every wicket is different and most wickets do something. The odd flat wicket is good for the game. Melbourne traditionally ends up flat.

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i miss perths bounce as well, i used to look forward to the perth test, now its shit. heres my take on the Aussie pitches.
Adelaide oval, great batting surface easily the best in Australia.
SCG, spinners pitch but seamers have their chance especially early on day 1 and day 5 .
MCG, a bit of a mongrel pitch over the years, can suit bat or ball, has been getting flater the last few years, im not sure if they still use merry creek soil there. ?
GABBA, traditionally a seamers deck but it has been known to take turn.
WACA, just a shadow of its former self, note we have lost our last 2 matches there, has been chalk and cheese the last 2 years, last year suited the bowlers and this year the bat with no bounce to speak of, the curator needs a rocket.
belreive oval, the best outfield of all the Australian grounds, the pitch seams to suit bat and ball, the incomming tide can juice things up a bit. we have chased 350 odd on day 5 there against the pakis.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i agree with that.

i re-thought the idea of bringing in the new ball earlier, and ive changed my mind. i forgot about the spinners and reverse swingers as gbatman said. i would much rather watch a spinner bowl then a pace bowler, and if you give a team the chance to bring it in earlier, then maybe the times where the captain delays it for 20 overs just so the spinner can have more of a go.

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i agree with that.

i re-thought the idea of bringing in the new ball earlier, and ive changed my mind. i forgot about the spinners and reverse swingers as gbatman said. i would much rather watch a spinner bowl then a pace bowler, and if you give a team the chance to bring it in earlier, then maybe the times where the captain delays it for 20 overs just so the spinner can have more of a go.

spinners dont mind bowling with a harder ball, a good spinner will allways be in demand in any team in the world, remember it wasnt long ago when we played 2 frontline spinners, warne and may, miller, mcgill, but having warne as one of them made it a lot easier to do that. changing the ball at 60/70 overs it will still be at the captains descretion, if its reversing the captain may opt to keep the old one, but often it does nothing and it would just give the feilding team the option if needed. a spinner may find himself in more demand as the captain will want his new ball bowlers well rested, also a lot of grounds suffer from bad light so often on day one (80 overs in) the bowling captain is hestitant to take a new rock with 10 overs to go and the light meters not far away.

 

[bundybullz08]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

I look at Hayden's career as a reflection of the times. The guy is one of the most prolific batsmen in the world of the last decade, but he was incredibly limited. Take him off a flat track and he was very ordinary.

I echo breeno. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a good batting surface, but it's only one of many pitches available in our nuanced game. Bowlers and batsmen should have to develop their games to cope with a range of different types of pitches, that provide a range of conditions over a five day Test Match.

What about that series back in i think 2001,in India?
Surely that was one of the best batting performances you've seen by an individual during a series?

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

What about that series back in i think 2001,in India?
Surely that was one of the best batting performances you've seen by an individual during a series?

i agree, he was the only one who made runs in that series, he was known as a flat track bully but that didnt mean he couldnt bat on a dodgy pitch, it just meant he murdered the bowling on flat tracks.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

spinners dont mind bowling with a harder ball, a good spinner will allways be in demand in any team in the world, remember it wasnt long ago when we played 2 frontline spinners, warne and may, miller, mcgill, but having warne as one of them made it a lot easier to do that. changing the ball at 60/70 overs it will still be at the captains descretion, if its reversing the captain may opt to keep the old one, but often it does nothing and it would just give the feilding team the option if needed. a spinner may find himself in more demand as the captain will want his new ball bowlers well rested, also a lot of grounds suffer from bad light so often on day one (80 overs in) the bowling captain is hestitant to take a new rock with 10 overs to go and the light meters not far away.

i guess so. i just like to stick to tradition though. like keeping tests 5 days and not playing them at night.

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i guess so. i just like to stick to tradition though. like keeping tests 5 days and not playing them at night.

im only saying it because pitches arnt going to get any friendlier towards the bowlers, theres no money in 5 day test matches lasting 3 days. as for the night thing, i have no idea how they are going to overcome the problem of wet seams from dew, there is no way a ball will last 80 overs. and as for tradition, test cricket used to have 8 ball overs, no bouncer rule, matches were timeless or 6 day, i think anyway the game can be improved we must do it, you surely dont want to let "tradition" getting in the way of progress because its the game that suffers, as long as old batting and bowling records arnt compromised to much i dont see the harm.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

im only saying it because pitches arnt going to get any friendlier towards the bowlers, theres no money in 5 day test matches lasting 3 days. as for the night thing, i have no idea how they are going to overcome the problem of wet seams from dew, there is no way a ball will last 80 overs. and as for tradition, test cricket used to have 8 ball overs, no bouncer rule, matches were timeless or 6 day, i think anyway the game can be improved we must do it, you surely dont want to let "tradition" getting in the way of progress because its the game that suffers, as long as old batting and bowling records arnt compromised to much i dont see the harm.

thats about what i meant by tradition. i said it very loosely, i more meant natural progression. having 60-70 overs before the new ball can be taken is not in the natural progression of ridding the game of its problems. the other things that were changed were for the greater game (although not such things as the front foot no ball IMO was bad). if you change the time spent playing a test then the same things will happen but at a different rate. if a test were to go for 6 days there wouldnt be less draws as the teams would bat for longer and set larger scores. if you shortened it to 4 or 3 day tests then draws would still happen and games would still finish early as teams still do the exact same thing, just with smaller time frames and amounts of runs. it is tradition for the game to change, but it must only be for the greater good and still allow fair comparisons to older players and games. having pitches more suited to bowlers than they are now would be for the greater good as it would bring more competition and maybe even reverse the times back to when pitches were unique.

i have found though that pitches dont do anything different to teams when they are both evenly matched. see how the australians and south africans competed in their respected tours. all the games went mostly the full length, all had results and all were very close (3-3 for the two series is enough proof). putting sides together more carefully may be the answer, but australia not being able to play cricketing sides that are not as good will bring bad things to the game.

it has to be made sure that money doesnt become too big an issue with choices in cricket though. like making them play at night like they are set to later in the year just so i will be on prime time tv. i dont like that at all. keep the money out of the game IMO.

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

you make some good points boris, i just think the powers that be want it to be a batsmans game, consider what we have seen over the last century.

batsman padding up to a ball coming in from outside off stump, there was a time long ago when the bowler was givin the benifit of the doubt regarding LBWs in that situation, scrapped.
greatly improved bats.
smaller grounds (ropes)
bouncer rule.
the mankat rule (scrapped)
stricter on the front foot rule.
better batting surfaces, also a good batting strip is normally very hard and abrasive and the balls suffer because of this.
much better protective gear for batsman.
ball tampering way to risky now days. and it used to happen a lot.
umpires ready to blast any bowler for going in the danger zone on his follow through, much stricter now days.
sorry for rambling on but can you think of one rule change that has been in the bowlers favour. ever,, apart from the 8 ball over change.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i don't think i can recall any. i dont really have the largest knowledge of cricketing history.

what about the elbow bending law that was brought in? did that help bowlers in any way? there seems to be more offspiners able to get more rip because of it.

a lot of the laws brought in were for protection. imagine if cricket was played as it is today without helmets? i recall a couple of people dying when body line tactics first started coming into play. bouncers use to always be accidental, more like beamers are now. making the grounds smaller were also for safety of fielders as a picket fence isnt the softest of materials to run head first into. i dont like the way bats are going though. i know that i myself would love to have a bat that you barely have to swing to hit a six, but does that mean its fair. a lot of players are falling victim to the better bat though, with mis-timed shots now going further and in the air at a more catchable height. if old style bats were still used an edge would never carry to third man.

on the tradition theme again, would you rather see the white picket fence shown again? i keep thinking about it everytime i see the huge amounts of advertising covering it. i think it is as symbolic of cricket as white clothing and honesty, but you cant see it anymore. i know thats where the grounds and CA make a lot of money but a lot of youngsters watching dont even know there is one there. thats my complaint of the day.

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i don't think i can recall any. i dont really have the largest knowledge of cricketing history.

what about the elbow bending law that was brought in? did that help bowlers in any way? there seems to be more offspiners able to get more rip because of it.

a lot of the laws brought in were for protection. imagine if cricket was played as it is today without helmets? i recall a couple of people dying when body line tactics first started coming into play. bouncers use to always be accidental, more like beamers are now. making the grounds smaller were also for safety of fielders as a picket fence isnt the softest of materials to run head first into. i dont like the way bats are going though. i know that i myself would love to have a bat that you barely have to swing to hit a six, but does that mean its fair. a lot of players are falling victim to the better bat though, with mis-timed shots now going further and in the air at a more catchable height. if old style bats were still used an edge would never carry to third man.

on the tradition theme again, would you rather see the white picket fence shown again? i keep thinking about it everytime i see the huge amounts of advertising covering it. i think it is as symbolic of cricket as white clothing and honesty, but you cant see it anymore. i know thats where the grounds and CA make a lot of money but a lot of youngsters watching dont even know there is one there. thats my complaint of the day.

i dont begrudge them making a dollar if they can, remember test cricketers are paid very well now days so the cash has to come from somewhere, and back in the old days they could have a nice picket fence with now signs because cricketers wernt paid nearly as much as they are now, i wouldnt like to see test cricketers looking like bill boards though, and your right about the elbow thing but thats really only helped out the one player to my knoledge, im not sure if the pacemen get the same grace as murali, and your right about most of those changes being about safty, i wonder what would happen if a heavy hitter drilled a ball back to the bowler or umpire and creamed them in the face and the bowler or the umpire just didnt have time to react, i wonder if they"d look into the bat thing then, some baseball pitches have nearly died from the same scenario.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

i dont begrudge them making a dollar if they can, remember test cricketers are paid very well now days so the cash has to come from somewhere, and back in the old days they could have a nice picket fence with now signs because cricketers wernt paid nearly as much as they are now, i wouldnt like to see test cricketers looking like bill boards though, and your right about the elbow thing but thats really only helped out the one player to my knoledge, im not sure if the pacemen get the same grace as murali, and your right about most of those changes being about safty, i wonder what would happen if a heavy hitter drilled a ball back to the bowler or umpire and creamed them in the face and the bowler or the umpire just didnt have time to react, i wonder if they"d look into the bat thing then, some baseball pitches have nearly died from the same scenario.

your right about the money situation, any extra dollars can improve the grounds further.

i found a lot of off spin bowlers are now taking advantage of the elbow bending law, like Botha for South Africa for example. his action was coming into question and he was dropped from the side because he couldnt bowl well enough without flicking his elbow a little, but as soon as the law came through and was defined further he found he could still bowl that way, and then made his way back into the side.

something bad has to happen before anything is changed, like roads. roads will only be improved if someone dies on it first. i suppose there always has been and always will be dangers of playing any sport, and thats one of the reasons they are payed as much as they are, but safety should be a big issue, without going too far. like motorsport as well, they are changing tracks to ensure that they are safer, but at the same time they are ruining parts of tracks that used to be the best and hardest corner, or whatever, that only the best drivers could get around successfully. instead they take the corner out of the track for safety and the track loses its defining points and becomes boring. the same sort of thing could happen in cricket, and to some extent already has, with the protective gear. no longer are tail enders afraid of the ball and getting hurt so that they cant bowl and leaving it a very hard task for them to not lose their wicket, it used to be always a reasonably easy task to clean up the tail, making the batsmen have a much harder role to play and to fulfill. now we see batsmen sometimes relying on the tail much more, instead of them concentrating on keeping themselves and the other batsmen in. in one way though it has made it more exciting cricket as the tailenders are always the hit out or get out type, and such make runs quickly or get out in a spectacularly weird way. any other safety issues you think should be fixed, or leave the game as it is?

 

[distributer of pain]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

a lot of local grounds have pop up sprinklers which will be an issue when someone lands on one the wrong way, i doubt whether test grounds use them though.

 

[Boris]

Re: Are flat wickets killing test cricket?

yes they are a bit of a problem those sprinklers. one of the grounds i play on has them, and the other of the 2 major ones i play on doesnt even get watered at all, that in itself is a safety issue.

i doubt that they would use them on test grounds, but then how do they get even covering?

there is a couple of grounds in england that have a brick wall on the edge of the boundary where the change rooms are, that is a real safety issue because many players have run straight into them.

i think we may be a little off topic here