Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

If his shot selection is restricted, but he is fit, then we are being compromised a little. I can live with that but perhaps he should be knuckling down early instead of acting as though he is fully functional.

No argument from me with regard to his abilities and value to the team.

 

[Caesar]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

I think we should all wait until Ponting regains full fitness before judging his form.

Why, if we're talking about his form over an extended period (in this case, 3 years)?

He is still our most feared and comfortably our best batsmen, if we are serious about trying to win the Ashes back then he has to bat at 3.

Honestly, I don't think he IS our best batsman any more. Clarke and probably even Katich have performed consistently better for quite a while now, and we've had a pretty tough 12 months in 2009.

I certainly still want him in the team, and I wouldn't mind him batting at number 3 through to the end of the Ashes and beyond, but I certainly don't think he's the only person going around who can do that role. In a perfect world I'd like to see Clarke have a crack at the role, since it would be nice to have someone with some experience there when Ponting retires. He's had a mortgage on the spot so long, half the current side were in primary school last time someone else was regular first drop in the Test team.

 

[breeno]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Why, if we're talking about his form over an extended period (in this case, 3 years)?


Honestly, I don't think he IS our best batsman any more. Clarke and probably even Katich have performed consistently better for quite a while now, and we've had a pretty tough 12 months in 2009.

I certainly still want him in the team, and I wouldn't mind him batting at number 3 through to the end of the Ashes and beyond, but I certainly don't think he's the only person going around who can do that role. In a perfect world I'd like to see Clarke have a crack at the role, since it would be nice to have someone with some experience there when Ponting retires. He's had a mortgage on the spot so long, half the current side were in primary school last time someone else was regular first drop in the Test team.

I agree.

Since 07/08, Ponting has 2193 runs @ 41.38.

Since 07/08, Clarke has 2438 runs @ 54.17.

Since 08 (he didn't play 07/08), Katich has 2132 runs @ 52.

For a while now, I think Ponting has been overrated (not taking anything away from him, but for 3 seasons he hasn't been our form batsman). Katich in about 10 less innings only has 61 runs less than Ponting since 07/08, and Clarke has been performing for much longer.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Does anyone think he will retire after the coming Ashes?

I'm just wondering on people's thoughts.

A lot of players like to end a great career on a big note. And there is nothing bigger in the cricket world than the Ashes.

He may like to finish then, hand over the captaincy after a big series and let Clarke take on te cooling off period after that, since the team should no doubt be settled by then.

Then he can play on for the world cup. End with the Ashes and the WC.

I can more see Ponting retiring in ODIs earlier than Tests.

Just a thought, don't think he will but it's definitely a possibility.

 

[Ljp86]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Does anyone think he will retire after the coming Ashes?

I'm just wondering on people's thoughts.

A lot of players like to end a great career on a big note. And there is nothing bigger in the cricket world than the Ashes.

He may like to finish then, hand over the captaincy after a big series and let Clarke take on te cooling off period after that, since the team should no doubt be settled by then.

Then he can play on for the world cup. End with the Ashes and the WC.

I can more see Ponting retiring in ODIs earlier than Tests.

Just a thought, don't think he will but it's definitely a possibility.

I'm betting he'll go after the 2011 World Cup. He'll be 36 by then and will have competed at his 5th World Cup. I'd see no real reason for him to continue on unless he wanted to call it quits on home soil which could be a distinct possibility.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

I'm betting he'll go after the 2011 World Cup. He'll be 36 by then and will have competed at his 5th World Cup. I'd see no real reason for him to continue on unless he wanted to call it quits on home soil which could be a distinct possibility.

They are my thoughts on the matter as well.

Personally I prefer to see players retire around the 37/38 mark. Finishing on top is always nice, but like Hayden he played until he didn't think it possible to play on. I think that has a bit of team spirit in it, squeeze out every last drop of your performance for your country. I do understand the sentimental value though, and I have to admit if it were me, I would retire on top as well.

I thought Ponting may drop another form of the game and continue with just one. I think he would drop ODIs way before Tests though, which doesn't help this situation with the Ashes, a year and a half break then the World Cup.

I would like to see him finish at home.

 

[Caesar]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Personally I prefer to see players retire around the 37/38 mark. Finishing on top is always nice, but like Hayden he played until he didn't think it possible to play on.

Playing to 37/38 and finishing 'on top' form wise are so rare as to be almost mutually exclusive. Hayden was well and truly past it when he finally called it quits - for the last two years of his career he averaged comfortably in the thirties.

I think that has a bit of team spirit in it, squeeze out every last drop of your performance for your country.

I think it's the opposite. To hang onto your spot in the face of poor performances, in the knowledge that there are others out there who could perform better, is the epitome of selfishness. It's natural, I'm pretty sure I'd do it too, but it's definitely not about team spirit.

I should note that in no way do I think Ponting is past it, despite his decline - quite the reverse. Buts a rule we are far too reluctant to cut the cord on old, rusted-on players who are no longer performing at an acceptable level for Test cricket.

Affording too many chances to players who are have become a liability to the side has become a bit of a trait of ours in recent years. It's a luxury we may no longer be able to afford without a superstar team to carry the dead weight.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Playing to 37/38 and finishing 'on top' form wise are so rare as to be almost mutually exclusive. Hayden was well and truly past it when he finally called it quits - for the last two years of his career he averaged comfortably in the thirties.


I think it's the opposite. To hang onto your spot in the face of poor performances, in the knowledge that there are others out there who could perform better, is the epitome of selfishness. It's natural, I'm pretty sure I'd do it too, but it's definitely not about team spirit.

I should note that in no way do I think Ponting is past it, despite his decline - quite the reverse. Buts a rule we are far too reluctant to cut the cord on old, rusted-on players who are no longer performing at an acceptable level for Test cricket.

Affording too many chances to players who are have become a liability to the side has become a bit of a trait of ours in recent years. It's a luxury we may no longer be able to afford without a superstar team to carry the dead weight.

It's a fine line, and I think using the Hayden example might have caused a bit of confusion. For me Hayden could have played on, but I'm biased.

What I mean is there is a small margin for error. Retiring just as you start your decline is what I like.

I'm going to use McGrath as an example because he is the only one I can think of right now. Obviously his age was starting to show and he retired at the right time, but I just want to use him periodically. He could have played on and still churned out good results, year after year. But him retiring at that time, the same time as Warne, caused a big churn up in the team. Technically that could be called 'selfish'. Don't read into this further than I am intending though, just low on examples.

It does really depend on the state of the team though.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Hayden averaged 80 odd against India in the 07/08 series and looked to be batting as good as ever.

No-one could have predicted that he'd be out of the game less then a year later, he injured his achilles tendon and never came back the same player which isn't surprising.

People in discussing Ponting's form have to factor in the fact that for most of this home summer he has been carrying an elbow injury that has severly impacted his batting.

I think Ponting will retire after the 2011 World Cup from all forms of the game after winning the cup and regaining the Ashes to go down as our greatest cricketer since Bradman.

 

[breeno]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

People in discussing Ponting's form have to factor in the fact that for most of this home summer he has been carrying an elbow injury that has severly impacted his batting.
.

You do realise when we're taking figures from 2 seasons ago it doesn't matter?

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

What the hell does what he averaged 2 seasons ago have to do with it?

He averaged 49.5 in the Ashes, and at the Oval he singlehandedly had the poms crapping themselves. That was the most recently completed test series, in the ODI games after the Ashes and at the Champions Trophy he was in great touch.

He got 55 at the Gabba, got some starts at Adelaide and then got injured at Perth and has struggled since that moment with his injury.

Batsmen are not going to be able to average 50+ year after year, the law of chance or the law of averages will see to that.

People have to state their case here, if you think Ponting isn't up to it anymore then say it? Should he go down the order? Have a rest?

England aren't anything we need to start jumping up and down about, they are a good team sure, but we are just as good and all this talk that we have to start purging players out of our team is totally uncalled for.

Lets be realistic.

 

[breeno]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

What the hell does what he averaged 2 seasons ago have to do with it?

He averaged 49.5 in the Ashes, and at the Oval he singlehandedly had the poms crapping themselves. That was the most recently completed test series, in the ODI games after the Ashes and at the Champions Trophy he was in great touch.

He got 55 at the Gabba, got some starts at Adelaide and then got injured at Perth and has struggled since that moment with his injury.

Batsmen are not going to be able to average 50+ year after year, the law of chance or the law of averages will see to that.

People have to state their case here, if you think Ponting isn't up to it anymore then say it? Should he go down the order? Have a rest?

England aren't anything we need to start jumping up and down about, they are a good team sure, but we are just as good and all this talk that we have to start purging players out of our team is totally uncalled for.

Lets be realistic.

I know what you're saying, but I'm talking about his average from 2 years ago up until now.

I personally think he should go down there order especially if restricted, but as I said I don't doubt his ability, but for some time now he has averaged sub 45. Certainly not a bad record for someone of his age, I was just suggesting that he isn't our best bat anymore.

England are a good side, they're doing well against South Africa and taking them lightly when we havn't got that great of a team isn't the best thing to do.

 

[Caesar]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

What the hell does what he averaged 2 seasons ago have to do with it?

It's called trend analysis.

People have to state their case here, if you think Ponting isn't up to it anymore then say it? Should he go down the order? Have a rest?

England aren't anything we need to start jumping up and down about, they are a good team sure, but we are just as good and all this talk that we have to start purging players out of our team is totally uncalled for.

Wow, way to start putting words in people's mouths. Where in this thread has anyone called for Ponting to be purged from the team? Most posts I see have explicitly pointed out that they think Ponting still belongs in the team until at least after the Ashes. A couple have suggested he moves down the order.

There is no harm in pointing out that Ponting's potency has severely declined in recent years, nor that Australia tends to hang onto players past their use by date.

 

[Sober Symonds]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

It's worth discussing. Ponting's a great batsman still, but the newspaper analysed his more recent figures the other day, and it would appear he has slipped a bit. Regardless, would it be such a bad idea to ease him down a couple of places and prepare for life beyond him? Maybe not right now, but worth a thought soon.

It's a fine line, and I think using the Hayden example might have caused a bit of confusion. For me Hayden could have played on, but I'm biased.

What I mean is there is a small margin for error. Retiring just as you start your decline is what I like.

One could argue that Hayden was selfish playing on an extra year or two until he convinced himself he still had some touch. In the meantime, he embarassed himself somewhat and really should have pulled the pin when, as you say, his decline "started".

I think Caesar is right. We (Hilditch & co.) suddenly started letting blokes linger longer than they were allowed under Hohns' regime. Even legends got the tap on the shoulder then, and as bitter a pill it was to swallow at the time, it kept us very strong.

I appreciate you are big on sentimentality, Boris, but we can't dwell in it or we fumble the ball in the meantime and other hungrier teams catch us out.

Oooh, Ponting's looking good at the moment ... I like it!

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Well if Ponting moves down the order, who takes number 3?

I have stated that Ponting is still the best man at number 3 at this stage, and is the one most likely to play an innings that will a test match. If your looking forward to the Ashes, Ponting is the one most likely to win us a test match of his own bat, one great innings could seal the Ashes for us.

I don't see the point of Ponting coming in if we're 4/250 - because North and Haddin are more then capable of going on with it from that position.

Conversely, I don't see the point of Ponting coming it at 6 if we're 4/60.

Ponting isn't the player he was, but so what?

His the best we have got and the one most capable of winning the Ashes of his own bat.

Keep him at 3 where he has the best chance of influencing the match.

 

[breeno]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

Well if Ponting moves down the order, who takes number 3?

I have stated that Ponting is still the best man at number 3 at this stage, and is the one most likely to play an innings that will a test match. If your looking forward to the Ashes, Ponting is the one most likely to win us a test match of his own bat, one great innings could seal the Ashes for us.

I don't see the point of Ponting coming in if we're 4/250 - because North and Haddin are more then capable of going on with it from that position.

Conversely, I don't see the point of Ponting coming it at 6 if we're 4/60.

Ponting isn't the player he was, but so what?

His the best we have got and the one most capable of winning the Ashes of his own bat.

Keep him at 3 where he has the best chance of influencing the match.

In terms of actual runs over the past two years, no he is not the best bat we have got.

The point seems to fly over your head very often.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

It can keep flying over my head, Ponting IMO is our best batsmen in the sense that his the most likely to exert a influence on the game when he bats. Not just in the runs he scores, but in the pressure he takes off the rest of the order.

I don't really take total runs into it, Ponting is IMO our most feared batsmen and most capable of taking a grip on a match. That may be counter-attacking with a quick fire 70 odd to open up the innings for the remaining batsmen as he did in the 4th test in the Ashes.

The suggestion to even move Ponting from number 3 at this stage is uncalled. Possibly, down the road I could see Watson going to 3 and Hughes opening and Ponting maybe going to 5 but that would need a massive change in form from Hughes.

 

[a for effort]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

It can keep flying over my head, Ponting IMO is our best batsmen in the sense that his the most likely to exert a influence on the game when he bats. Not just in the runs he scores, but in the pressure he takes off the rest of the order.

Whilst grammatically valid, this comment makes no sense.

 

[breeno]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

It can keep flying over my head, Ponting IMO is our best batsmen in the sense that his the most likely to exert a influence on the game when he bats. Not just in the runs he scores, but in the pressure he takes off the rest of the order.

I don't really take total runs into it, Ponting is IMO our most feared batsmen and most capable of taking a grip on a match. That may be counter-attacking with a quick fire 70 odd to open up the innings for the remaining batsmen as he did in the 4th test in the Ashes.

The suggestion to even move Ponting from number 3 at this stage is uncalled. Possibly, down the road I could see Watson going to 3 and Hughes opening and Ponting maybe going to 5 but that would need a massive change in form from Hughes.

IMO Our best batsman is the one who is making the most runs at the best average. You can look good all you want, but the bottom line is that our best batsman is the one making runs.

I don't think moving him down the order while he is restricted isn't such a bad idea, and my reasoning for this is to groom someone else into the role since we have had such a settled number 3 for so long.

If it is totally in your opinion then stop putting words in people's mouths and shooting them down for their own opinions.

 

[Boris]

Re: Australian Test XI - Selection Thread

One could argue that Hayden was selfish playing on an extra year or two until he convinced himself he still had some touch. In the meantime, he embarassed himself somewhat and really should have pulled the pin when, as you say, his decline "started".

I think Caesar is right. We (Hilditch & co.) suddenly started letting blokes linger longer than they were allowed under Hohns' regime. Even legends got the tap on the shoulder then, and as bitter a pill it was to swallow at the time, it kept us very strong.

I appreciate you are big on sentimentality, Boris, but we can't dwell in it or we fumble the ball in the meantime and other hungrier teams catch us out.

Oooh, Ponting's looking good at the moment ... I like it!

The Hayden situation is different, because had he not been dropped from the ODI team, he could very well have averaged 50ish in the Ashes, his IPL come back to form proved the point I made just before he retired, I even said he would be very good in that coming IPL. ODI is where he came back as a batsman, and it was very obvious his intention was to play through to the Ashes, and for a man with only one and a half series of bad form (which Katich, Watson, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey and North have all had) he get's dropped for being old. I don't want to continue with this topic though.