DVCA: Player movements and rumours

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

We have all heard and seen from the weekend's results, that Research were demolished outright by Epping. Research were routed in the second dig for a record breaking 21. A fine effort by Epping but from all reports the umpiring standard was quoted as " woeful ". Research champion batsman Glenn Turner's dismissal was said to be a shocker. Surely the benefit of the doubt must be in the batsman's favour if the umpire is unsure? By all reports there were at least a handful of shockers in the Research-Epping match and by the same umpire. Was it an abberation or is this a common occurence from all the 70 + umpires we have?
Lalor Stars premier bat Steve Kemp was given caught behind down leg side in the match against Riverside when clearly a mile away from the ball. Umpire was 70 +. Most sides have 2 or 3 good bats and when one or two are given out on dubious decisions, it is very hard to fight back. Of course opposition teams may go over board in the appealing against the better bats but the umpire should still be able to judge the decision clear headed.
I keep hearing how hard it is to recruit umpires and dont go too hard on them, but at the end of the day cricket in the Valley is big business. I run a club that requires hours of work a week and there are lots of bigger clubs than mine around. Its hard work. The DVCA executive run things pretty good I would have thought, but our umpiring depatrment seems to be found wanting a tad. Sure we have good numbers compared to the Jika and Heidelberg district, but the standard in my opinion is and has been quite poor for a some time now. I assume we have all heard about the influx of 15 indian student umpires? Good move? I doubt it, but will reserve my judgement until some feedback comes in.
I get a bad taste in my mouth when I hear that we need more umpires. They are helping us out. Cricket will be the loser. Spare me! Clubs collectively must fork out close enough to $ 100,000 tax free to umpires over they year. Sure there are a couple of umpires that are worth their salt, Nick Shearer comes to mind, but why should a nuff nuff that is allowed out only on weekends get the same dollars as the best in our league?
If they aren't skilled enough to look after 22 men then dont employ them. If they are too old then leave them out in the garden on a saturday. I'm quite happy to have the batting team umpire therefore eliminating LBW's and close runouts than an elderly pensioner or a uni student that needs the cash.
This statement is not to sling shit at the umpiring fratenity but merely state that in my opinion more umpires is not necessarily better. We do need umpires, but good ones. Bad decisions will be made but less frequent. Pay the good umpires what they are worth and slide the payment scale according to the umpire rating. I have no problem paying a good umpire $200 a week but do struggle at the thought of paying $110 to umpires in anything below C grade. If Davo happens to come up with enough umpires to fill down to E grade there will be clubs forking out $500 odd every week.

 

[Ex-Prez]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

We have all heard and seen from the weekend's results, that Research were demolished outright by Epping. Research were routed in the second dig for a record breaking 21. A fine effort by Epping but from all reports the umpiring standard was quoted as " woeful ". Research champion batsman Glenn Turner's dismissal was said to be a shocker. Surely the benefit of the doubt must be in the batsman's favour if the umpire is unsure? By all reports there were at least a handful of shockers in the Research-Epping match and by the same umpire. Was it an abberation or is this a common occurence from all the 70 + umpires we have?
Lalor Stars premier bat Steve Kemp was given caught behind down leg side in the match against Riverside when clearly a mile away from the ball. Umpire was 70 +. Most sides have 2 or 3 good bats and when one or two are given out on dubious decisions, it is very hard to fight back. Of course opposition teams may go over board in the appealing against the better bats but the umpire should still be able to judge the decision clear headed.
I keep hearing how hard it is to recruit umpires and dont go too hard on them, but at the end of the day cricket in the Valley is big business. I run a club that requires hours of work a week and there are lots of bigger clubs than mine around. Its hard work. The DVCA executive run things pretty good I would have thought, but our umpiring depatrment seems to be found wanting a tad. Sure we have good numbers compared to the Jika and Heidelberg district, but the standard in my opinion is and has been quite poor for a some time now. I assume we have all heard about the influx of 15 indian student umpires? Good move? I doubt it, but will reserve my judgement until some feedback comes in.
I get a bad taste in my mouth when I hear that we need more umpires. They are helping us out. Cricket will be the loser. Spare me! Clubs collectively must fork out close enough to $ 100,000 tax free to umpires over they year. Sure there are a couple of umpires that are worth their salt, Nick Shearer comes to mind, but why should a nuff nuff that is allowed out only on weekends get the same dollars as the best in our league?
If they aren't skilled enough to look after 22 men then dont employ them. If they are too old then leave them out in the garden on a saturday. I'm quite happy to have the batting team umpire therefore eliminating LBW's and close runouts than an elderly pensioner or a uni student that needs the cash.
This statement is not to sling shit at the umpiring fratenity but merely state that in my opinion more umpires is not necessarily better. We do need umpires, but good ones. Bad decisions will be made but less frequent. Pay the good umpires what they are worth and slide the payment scale according to the umpire rating. I have no problem paying a good umpire $200 a week but do struggle at the thought of paying $110 to umpires in anything below C grade. If Davo happens to come up with enough umpires to fill down to E grade there will be clubs forking out $500 odd every week.

Well said in general but the overall standard is not that bad.
In Barlcay Reserve where i spend most of my time the ump standards have been fairly good and consistent over the last few years.
But then again we tend to get the newer umps who are up and coming.
In Barclay Shield the standard has been ordinary for years because the same guys in the 'click' get matches every week.
We all joke about getting hit on the pads after 5pm with one certian umpire. The fact that we do so and have done so for 10+ years is a disgrace.

We have had 2 indian umps this year. Both were very good in general cricket decisions. They lack a bit of knowledge in the local rules but that is to be expected.
Our local ump last weekend (who was very good for the entire match) made a big blue at the end of day 2 when he called time at 6pm when we had Macleod 9 for and chasing the last wicket for an outright. We still had 6 overs to go.

The overall department as you said needs an overhaul. The umps need to be educated not only in cricket rules but also the local rules as well.
The problem is you have a bloke who volunteers his time looking after the group. As you know the majority of club officials and the executive are all none paid volunteers so we cannot be too critical when they give up their time to do a job - even if we deem it not to be the best it could be.
When i was in the Jika, we had a Premier, well actually a state level umpire come round to each club and go thru the rules at the start of each year. I beleive they also meet with the local umps regularly. Not sure if this still happens or not but worked very well I thought.

I actually raised the idea of tiered payment levels in the umps a few years back but Davo said no.
He could not justify how an A grade umpire could share the load for the day and get maybe $150 whereas a C grade umpire had to do the job on his own and get maybe $80.

Saying this, if the same old umpires are still going to umpire in A grade anyway, why pay them more?

 

[Tongs]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

I have seen 3 of the "Imported" Umpires in action, and 2 of them were not worth the sweat off my balls after 80 overs in the field. The other one was fine. Did not make any bad decisions at all. As for the standard of umpiring, it is disgraceful and at all levels.

All I will say Keasy is thank your lucky stars (no pun intended) that you are playing ones. Look at the calibre that you are getting each week (ordinary to ok), and then think about what the guys get in the lower grades! I've seen some in action, and if i was playing in those grades i reckon i'd go close to punching one of them!


I do agree though, that something has to be done about it. But it cannot be players umpiring. You only want that so you can sledge with that foul mouth of yours and not get reported

And besides, no LBW means you lose 20 wickets a year!

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

I have seen 3 of the "Imported" Umpires in action, and 2 of them were not worth the sweat off my balls after 80 overs in the field. The other one was fine. Did not make any bad decisions at all. As for the standard of umpiring, it is disgraceful and at all levels.

All I will say Keasy is thank your lucky stars (no pun intended) that you are playing ones. Look at the calibre that you are getting each week (ordinary to ok), and then think about what the guys get in the lower grades! I've seen some in action, and if i was playing in those grades i reckon i'd go close to punching one of them!


I do agree though, that something has to be done about it. But it cannot be players umpiring. You only want that so you can sledge with that foul mouth of yours and not get reported

And besides, no LBW means you lose 20 wickets a year!

Good arguements both yourself and The Prez. Tongs you are a funny **************. These arguements are all opinions. Do people agree that it has been Dad's army for too long? Davo does a fine job for a volunteer and I can understand that it is a fair whack of his time to get the games umpired for the clubs. But where to in the future? When Dicky and Davo move aside who takes the reigns? Chris Doupe?
Why not pay a fee for the umpires advisor similar to DVCA secretary?
Should the umps who earn in excess of $2500 cash a year have to frequent clubs throughout the year?
George you are correct in saying that the standard one rung down maybe a little more consistent. I cant remember the last newbie umpire to do a game.
I have always believed that bowlers make the best umpires. They seem to know which way the ball is swinging and the nuances of the art. Batsmen are a dime a dozen. I cant remember bowling to too many of the men in white who stand nowadays. Moorey might be the only one. He couldn't tell which way the ball was swinging in his heyday let alone now! lol

 

[George]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

Good arguements both yourself and The Prez. Tongs you are a funny **************. These arguements are all opinions. Do people agree that it has been Dad's army for too long? Davo does a fine job for a volunteer and I can understand that it is a fair whack of his time to get the games umpired for the clubs. But where to in the future? When Dicky and Davo move aside who takes the reigns? Chris Doupe?
Why not pay a fee for the umpires advisor similar to DVCA secretary?
Should the umps who earn in excess of $2500 cash a year have to frequent clubs throughout the year?
George you are correct in saying that the standard one rung down maybe a little more consistent. I cant remember the last newbie umpire to do a game.
I have always believed that bowlers make the best umpires. They seem to know which way the ball is swinging and the nuances of the art. Batsmen are a dime a dozen. I cant remember bowling to too many of the men in white who stand nowadays. Moorey might be the only one. He couldn't tell which way the ball was swinging in his heyday let alone now! lol

I can tell you one thing that may help, that is to educate younger players not to appeal every time the ball beats the bat, hits the batter anywhere from head to toe, and/or generally display bad sportsmanship.

There are way too many young players (and some old players) in our midst who appeal willy nilly for obvious not outs, and seem to be encouraged to do so by weak captains. All this is doing is putting more pressure on amateur umpires who are in the whole trying hard.

I played in a game on the weekend where the square leg umpire (a player) gave a batsman not out when clearly run out to make up for what he thought was a bad decision against one of his batters by the main umpire earlier in the day. More bad sportsmanship, and by a senior player. Poor darts. Way too much bad sportsmanship for my liking in the comp and as i say, it seems to be encouraged by the leaders at clubs not cracking down on it early.

We all like to be competitive, but there are way too many bad appeals, only for guys to later say over a beer that they didn't think it was out and a guy copped a stinker. If it's clearly not out, stop appealing as it is basically cheating and putting way too much pressure on the goons at either end who have enough trouble counting to 6 every three and a half minutes.

An improvement in general sportsmanship across the grades (my club prides itself on it, and not lowering ourselves to the standard of some) will in my mind help the umpires immensly.

Don't take this as a defence for poor umpiring as I agree some of the 'old boys' have been past it for decades and need to move on.

 

[legend of a bear]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

Cold Case, if blokes like you didnt appeal when you know its not out, many of the problems you have raised would instantly disappear.
Clean up your own backyard first!

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

Totally agree. I dont reckon I've seen teams over appeal too much in Barclay Shield. Contrary to what people hear, I try to appeal when I think its close enough and when I think your dead I certainly make the umpire know what his finger is usued for. Gibbsy the great player he is, has a fair crack at the LBW's. In his defence he does bowl full and to a plan. This is why I believe it may be beneficial for clubs and umpires to have some discussion time between each other.
As for blatant cheating, Its a no goer for me. I would hope that my club is not guilty of this but cant guarantee it. I would personally find it hard to fire out a team mate trapped in front but I have never been in the situation.
A catch 22 whether I would rather lower grades umpire between themselves and blatantly cheat or inexperienced umpires coerced into match changing decisions. Either way it starts at the top. Captains should lead from the front, coaches and staff the same but also the umpiring officialdom must educate and be satisfied that a newbie can handle the pressure before employing them. Practice matches free of charge during pre season might be suffice!

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

Cold Case, if blokes like you didnt appeal when you know its not out, many of the problems you have raised would instantly disappear.
Clean up your own backyard first!

I dont appeal when I know its not out. You play too much across the line to cope. Remember the Grand Final when I cartwheeled your stumps past the keeper? That is why you are a goalkeeper at hockey cause you cant hit it straight enough or is it because you were never big on running?

 

[legend of a bear]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

I dont appeal when I know its not out. You play too much across the line to cope. Remember the Grand Final when I cartwheeled your stumps past the keeper? That is why you are a goalkeeper at hockey cause you cant hit it straight enough or is it because you were never big on running?

What about when you had me caught behind for 0 at Whittlesea? Everyone knew it hit me on the shoulder, including you, but you couldn't miss the opportunity to take advantage of an inexperienced umpire, and i dont think you've changed 1 little bit since. So don't come on here trying to sound like Mr Perfect, and get on the morale high ground. I know for a fact that YOU have umpires you think you can exploit in certain situations, so i'll say it againg....clean up your own back yard first.

By the way, that was Alfred E. Newman that played keeper, -I'm the hard running centre forward!!!

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

What about when you had me caught behind for 0 at Whittlesea? Everyone knew it hit me on the shoulder, including you, but you couldn't miss the opportunity to take advantage of an inexperienced umpire, and i dont think you've changed 1 little bit since. So don't come on here trying to sound like Mr Perfect, and get on the morale high ground. I know for a fact that YOU have umpires you think you can exploit in certain situations, so i'll say it againg....clean up your own back yard first.

By the way, that was Alfred E. Newman that played keeper, -I'm the hard running centre forward!!!

That inexperienced umpire was the great Ken McClelland. So next time I bowl to you I'm on a hattrick? Maybe I'll have my chance one day again .A common theme here Bear. In 25 years of cricket I have played against you twice and you brand me an umpire exploiter! Shame on you.

 

[legend of a bear]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

That inexperienced umpire was the great Ken McClelland. So next time I bowl to you I'm on a hattrick? Maybe I'll have my chance one day again .A common theme here Bear. In 25 years of cricket I have played against you twice and you brand me an umpire exploiter! Shame on you.

-nah, it was second ball....no hat-trick on!
-the umpire was dunny
-the stump cart wheeled past the keeper cos the keeper was up to the stumps in those days (and nowadays too, i hear)
-calling you an umpire exploiter is keeping it mild. shame on you.
-hope you're not expecting too much from santa claus this year...i dont think father will be too happy with you bagging the umps

 

[Tongs]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

George I disagree with what you are saying about the young kids appealing too much. Yes they do it, not because they are trying to cheat, but because they watch too much TV and generally have no idea about the rules of cricket. You can't say that they should not over appeal, as in their minds the batsman is actually out. It’s the coaches/fathers that should be teaching the kids the laws of cricket.

I believe it is the umpires who need to grow some aggots and take a bit of ownership of THEIR decisions. Who cares if the bowler appeals 5 out of 6 balls? They might be all close, but if it’s not out its not out. Don't give one because they have been close so many times. Over appealing means jack if the umpires take a bit of pride in their own work.

Keasy don't you give me that crap about you not appealing when you believe it is not out. You got me LBW to a (rhymes with PUNT) of a decision. I bat a yard out of my crease, took two steps down the pitch and got hit just above the knee roll. I also bat left handed, so far chance its going across me or pitching outside leg. You were the only buffoon to go up and needless to say I thought you were going to kiss the umpire you got up that close. The umpire preceded to shlte his pants and put up his shaking index finger.

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

Keasy don't you give me that crap about you not appealing when you believe it is not out. You got me LBW to a (rhymes with PUNT) of a decision. I bat a yard out of my crease, took two steps down the pitch and got hit just above the knee roll. I also bat left handed, so far chance its going across me or pitching outside leg. You were the only buffoon to go up and needless to say I thought you were going to kiss the umpire you got up that close. The umpire preceded to shlte his pants and put up his shaking index finger.

All you guys sound like the poor innocent criminal that is doing time for something he didnt commit. You bat out your crease and are left handed. Well I bowl predominately away swing to the left hander with a change up ball 5 yards quicker back into the left hander. Maybe that was the one that got you!

 

[Tongs]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

[/B]

All you guys sound like the poor innocent criminal that is doing time for something he didnt commit. You bat out your crease and are left handed. Well I bowl predominately away swing to the left hander with a change up ball 5 yards quicker back into the left hander. Maybe that was the one that got you!

Wasn't that quick, and i walked two steps down the pitch at you. Just missed it!

I now know how Rodney King felt!

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

Wasn't that quick, and i walked two steps down the pitch at you. Just missed it!

I now know how Rodney King felt!

must have been my slow ball that deceived you?

Getting back to umpires. I remember playing against my old side Bundoora. We had them on the ropes, out strides Sonny Taggar takes block, Dicky Norman says " two centres". First ball I thought I would either give him a inswinging yorker or a slow ball. I choose the latter and it comes out perfect, strikes Sammy dead and on the full. I didn't either bother with the over exaggerated appeal, just the hand up expecting Dickey to oblige. 1/2 a second goes by and I hear nothing, then I turn around and give another appeal at full throttle. What do I see? Dickie sound asleep. I throw in another rather large inquiry to wake Dickie up, he did and proceeded to drop his counter.
Sonny Taggar made 100 and we lost the game

 

[captain cuzz]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

The problem is as obvious as the nose on your face and it's the same problem you're going to have no matter what level you play, whether it be H Grade in the DVCA or if you're playing for Australia...

The problem is that umpires who have been around for a long time expect to umpire the highest level possible, whether they deserve to or not and will kick up a stink if they don't get those games.

I can guarantee you that most umpires over 55 would have said to themselves and possibly to the bloke in charge of the schedule "I'm umpiring at the top level, or I'm not umpiring at all"

Of course the comp are going to want to keep the blokes around, so they keep giving them the top grades!

It's common sense to know that the older you are, the more you're going to make mistakes, it's time for someone to bite the bullet and bring the next core group of 5 or 6 younger umpires through to umpire the top grades. I'm not saying a 20 year old should do it, but someone at the peak of their powers, 35 - 45 years.

Most umpires who have been around for a long time are going to be too proud and stubborn to realise that they're actually past it, similar in a way to a player who's played 1st XI cricket for the last 15 years, he expects to be picked at 1st XI level every week and would rather not play at all than play 2nd XI or lower. It would be nice for a bloke to be able to admit when he's over the hill, but I doubt we'll see it any time soon.

Forget about umpires taking ownership of their decisions, most blokes at our level will have a good guess for an LBW or caught down leg side AT BEST! It's time for the comp to actually get active about the standard instead of just sitting back and giving the token line of "we need more umpires, go easy on them becasue no one wants to do it..." They love to be in control and stamp their authority when it suits them, how about they pull their fingers out and work on something that clearly needs a change!

If some blokes at Money Shield or Barclay Reserve level were given a crack at Barclay Shield level, I'm tipping we'd see a marked improvement.

I play predominantly Barclay Reserve and I can say with a fair bit of conviction - I've had one bad umpire in 2 or 3 years that has given an absolute shocker, BUT, he was consistent about it ad gave 3 or 4 on the day! Most blokes at that level would prefer not give them unless they're ABSOLUTELY out, which is fine by me, so long as they're consistent with it.

 

[The Wizz]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

The same season I had a bad motor bike accident, I broke my arm and injured the disc in my back and neck. So I thought I would put something back into the game and umpire. After speaking to Davo I told him I only wanted to do the lower grades and stay close to home (Whittlesea) Davo agreed. I can tell you all it is very hard
to stay focused for 80/68 overs. I remember 1 game Yarrambat v Reaserch it was just before lunch The batsman smashed it to the keeper, I was off in fairy land I heard the noise but didn't see him hit it so I gave it not out. That batsman ended up making a 100 and winning the game from my mistake. But I still took the $80 and life goes on.
So what is the answer? Evan at test level there still making mistakes.

 

[Bundoora]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

must have been my slow ball that deceived you?

Getting back to umpires. I remember playing against my old side Bundoora. We had them on the ropes, out strides Sonny Taggar takes block, Dicky Norman says " two centres". First ball I thought I would either give him a inswinging yorker or a slow ball. I choose the latter and it comes out perfect, strikes Sammy dead and on the full. I didn't either bother with the over exaggerated appeal, just the hand up expecting Dickey to oblige. 1/2 a second goes by and I hear nothing, then I turn around and give another appeal at full throttle. What do I see? Dickie sound asleep. I throw in another rather large inquiry to wake Dickie up, he did and proceeded to drop his counter.
Sonny Taggar made 100 and we lost the game

"Sonny" Taggar and he made 100, not 110 and we weren't on the ropes cos i was in next

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

The same season I had a bad motor bike accident, I broke my arm and injured the disc in my back and neck. So I thought I would put something back into the game and umpire. After speaking to Davo I told him I only wanted to do the lower grades and stay close to home (Whittlesea) Davo agreed. I can tell you all it is very hard
to stay focused for 80/68 overs. I remember 1 game Yarrambat v Reaserch it was just before lunch The batsman smashed it to the keeper, I was off in fairy land I heard the noise but didn't see him hit it so I gave it not out. That batsman ended up making a 100 and winning the game from my mistake. But I still took the $80 and life goes on.
So what is the answer? Evan at test level there still making mistakes.

Sounds a bit like your cricketing days.
You'd be the first ump to admit it!

 

[cold case]

Re: DVCA: Player movements and rumours

"Sonny" Taggar and he made 100, not 110 and we weren't on the ropes cos i was in next

You are right, but you have two scores. Under 5 or over 50. I reckon you've made a lot more of the former scores.