Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

[Rasterius]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Maybe in terms of figures, Flintoff wasn't the greatest of players. However, the effect he had on the crowd and the players around him, causing them to raise their abilities, makes him a great player and an indispensable member of the England team.

Remember back to Edgbaston '05, with Australia chasing 281, Australia were about 40-0 and Langer and Hayden were looking set. Flintoff comes on, first ball Langer is gone, and then ensues one of the best overs ever where Ponting is continuously peppered and challenged until, in the seventh ball of the over (one was a no-ball), Ponting edges behind to Jones. That over turned the game and if it wasn't for Flintoff, who knows what might have happened.

No point in saying what if this, what if that. Maybe Harmison would of come back to deliver a good spell, you don't know. The point is he can turn the game in his prime, which happened to be in a very memorable series. But besides that series and one or two years before, looking at his whole career he is overrated. It's not like he had any magic spells in 06/07 or any other time in his career.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

No point in saying what if this, what if that. Maybe Harmison would of come back to deliver a good spell, you don't know. The point is he can turn the game in his prime, which happened to be in a very memorable series. But besides that series and one or two years before, looking at his whole career he is overrated. It's not like he had any magic spells in 06/07 or any other time in his career.

Yeah, it all comes down the personal opinion. I didn't see much of him, but thought he really performed when it mattered, but was pretty ordinary the rest of the time.

Once again, though, I didn't see that much of him.

 

[Thumbs up]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Lee was definitely not overrated in his last 2 years of cricket - they were sensational and if he bowled like that for his whole career he would be as good as McGrath.

Just stop it Boris!

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Lee was definitely not overrated in his last 2 years of cricket - they were sensational and if he bowled like that for his whole career he would be as good as McGrath. That wasn't the case though.

Yeah, it was his whole career that was overrated.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Maybe in terms of figures, Flintoff wasn't the greatest of players. However, the effect he had on the crowd and the players around him, causing them to raise their abilities, makes him a great player and an indispensable member of the England team.

Remember back to Edgbaston '05, with Australia chasing 281, Australia were about 40-0 and Langer and Hayden were looking set. Flintoff comes on, first ball Langer is gone, and then ensues one of the best overs ever where Ponting is continuously peppered and challenged until, in the seventh ball of the over (one was a no-ball), Ponting edges behind to Jones. That over turned the game and if it wasn't for Flintoff, who knows what might have happened.

That is over-stating it a bit; another case of glorifying feats after the fact. I presume Flintoffs rampant drinking during the 06/07 Ashes, and the subsequent world cup, had a positive effect on team moral?

Flintoff was exceptional during the 2005 Ashes, but that was one series. Outside of that, he didn't reach his full potential.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Johnson bowled poorly for the majority of the Ashes.



It was the form of his life, with both the bat and ball. He has struggled to replicate either since.



Except that he confirmed it had.



It works one way, but not the other.



Yeah it's all down to luck not hard work paying off.



You don't have to tell me you're a fool.

Your work is good to read for a laugh, not much else.\

Yes, I say it again, England have had a fair share of luck recently. They were 2 balls away from losing the South African series 2-1. Poor umpiring gave England another reprieve against Bangladesh.

I say it again, sooner or later England's luck will expire, Murphy's Law suggests that that time will be during the 2010/2011 Ashes series.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Shall we remain on topic here? I know that certain members have a love affair with bashing anything English but it gets tiresome - save it for elsewhere. As far as I'm aware the topic is not 'so and so were lucky, they'll get theirs soon enough'.

Also, lets out the little digs, shall we? Far too many snide comments being thrown around. Debate, discuss what others have written by all means but also respect their points of view. I'm not a fan of threads of this nature in the first place so don't give me cause to close it.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Fair enough,

However, I have already put Brett Lee as a candidate for most over-rated bowled in the world, or at least in the last 10 years, therefore I would think that this isn't just another case of English bashing.

To be honest, I was gob-smacked when Lillee said that Lee was an all-time great 'express' bowler.

Brett Lee has a great debut season at home in the 1999/2000 season, and followed that up against the Windies in 2000/01.

He then got injured, returned for the 2001 Ashes, bowled pies and averaged 40 for the series.

For the vast majority of his career, Lee bowled without brains, he was either too full or too short.

 

[brickwaller99]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
76 150 16531 9554 310 5/30 9/171 30.81 3.46 53.3 17 10 0

pretty good if you ask me. Not a contender for most overrated test bowler because he was constantly copping the criticism above from everyone.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Once again it really does depend on what you qualify as overrated. I didn't expect anything more of Lee in his early days, so my rating of him was lower, and he in fact exceeded what I expected of him, so myself I underrated him.

All depends on your point of view.

 

[Ljp86]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
76 150 16531 9554 310 5/30 9/171 30.81 3.46 53.3 17 10 0

pretty good if you ask me. Not a contender for most overrated test bowler because he was constantly copping the criticism above from everyone.

Not bad but not that great either. Wouldn't call Lee overrated but you look back on his career and you could say he's a "good" bowler but won't be much more than that.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Not bad but not that great either. Wouldn't call Lee overrated but you look back on his career and you could say he's a "good" bowler but won't be much more than that.

Average under 20 - Freak
Average 20 to 25 - Great
Average 25 to 30 - Good
Average 30 to 35 - Average

 

[Beeswax]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

I don't think Jimmy Anderson is over-rated by any other nation apart from the English press and Andrew Strauss. Everyone else thinks he is ok, but not brilliant. I live in the UK and early in the year, what is called Derby in May conditions, he can be completely unplayable. But he just looks a trundler when they aren't. He is still far too conditions-dependent to be considered a top bowler.

But he is wonderful to watch when the conditions are in his favour.

MJ on the other hand is not conditions dependent. What makes him bowl well doesn't seem to be effected by anything outside what is going on his own head. Hence he can bowl well on dead pitches and really poorly in helpful conditions. Bit like Steve Harmison in that regard. Which is not at all a compliment.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Not bad but not that great either. Wouldn't call Lee overrated but you look back on his career and you could say he's a "good" bowler but won't be much more than that.

I'll come out and say that I'm not a Lee fan - personally, I think he's too one dimensional as a bowler. However, in his defence he's not the sort of bowler that stats will ever do justice to.

He main use, for pretty much the whole of his career was as a shock option. McGrath and Warne generally tied up an end (or least kept it economical) so Lee was used to rough up the batsman in an attempt to blast a wicket or two. Saving runs and creating pressure wasn't really his thing - pure speed was.

For me, he never really developed as a bowler. Once his pace started to dip and injuries took their toll his effectiveness lessened somewhat. Coupled with having to lead the attack for a while, he become a player who was singing to someone else's tune.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

I think there was a definite change in Lee's style.

When he was young he was there for the one and only thing, as Mas said. Who cares how many runs you go for if you get wickets at that rate and you have two of the best bowlers ever bowling along with you? He was just given a free run, do what you want when you want.

The question is, did he lose games? No, he didn't. If he had a bad day, then those other greats would come in and protect him.

When the great duo were coming close to retirement there was a noticeable difference in the way he bowled. He was carrying an injury and slowed down to about 140 km/h. This only made him better though. Since Ashes 06/07 he really was a different bowler. He was more than a yorker/bouncer bowler and I think he really sat down with the bowling coach/other bowlers and worked on doing this. He blasted away Sri Lanka, New Zealand, West Indies and started on India, but then sickness and injury struck and he went downhill.

He was bowling up with McGrath in his last two seasons of his career, he changed the way he played and noticed what he had to do. Inversly to Mas's opinion, when he was given the 'leader of the attack' role he flourished and took it on board very well, and that I thought was the setting in stone the new attack for the next few years in an almost seamless transition from McGrath/Warne into something less dominating but still very capable.

It was all that unwanted injury that ended things for him. I think if it weren't for that we would have seen some fireworks.

Now he is back up to 150 km/h and if he plays his cards right we might see some more of him. He just needs to make sure his rest and rehabilition is sufficient, the selectors have obviously shown their interest.

I think in his early career he was overrated by the general media. Often he would come away with a bag of wickets every game, 2, 3 or 4 of them, and would get them in quick succession and really terrorise. He really only got them though because he was given free rain to do what he wanted with the strength of the attack. The media looked at him and thought "x-factor", the looks, speed, excitement and antics were perfect for the headlines. That is why I didn't like him, he was pretty much just a coverboy of Australian Cricket.

It was that transistion that earned my respect of him, he finally lived up to what the papers had been saying for years.

Taking all that into account: Lee was overrated. Now instead, he is just criticised and dogged by injury.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

I'll come out and say that I'm not a Lee fan - personally, I think he's too one dimensional as a bowler. However, in his defence he's not the sort of bowler that stats will ever do justice to.

He main use, for pretty much the whole of his career was as a shock option. McGrath and Warne generally tied up an end (or least kept it economical) so Lee was used to rough up the batsman in an attempt to blast a wicket or two. Saving runs and creating pressure wasn't really his thing - pure speed was.

For me, he never really developed as a bowler. Once his pace started to dip and injuries took their toll his effectiveness lessened somewhat. Coupled with having to lead the attack for a while, he become a player who was singing to someone else's tune.

I agree with that, however, it should go on record that I rated Lee highly as a white ball bowler. His bowling in the 2003 World Cup was the main reason why we won that competition. He bowled a spell against Sri Lanka in the semi-final that is the fastest spell I have ever seen. He clean bowled Attapatu, after having him dropped the ball previously, with a 160.1 km thunderbowl. I kid you not, Attapatu missed the ball by a good 30 centimetres.

Averaging 30 odd having played most of your career with Warne and McGrath isn't a fantastic record.

As you said, Lee was one dimensional as a bowler, however late in his career he developed reverse swing around the time I believe he was at his best performance wise (late 2005 - late 2006). Outside of that period Lee was an ordinary bowler.

Don't get me wrong, Lee would give 110% whether in the field, with the bat and with the ball. He also never backed away from facing the short stuff.

I have little doubt that part of the reason Lee retired from test cricket was that Ponting said to him, "listen mate, there isn't a spot here for you".

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Averaging 30 odd having played most of your career with Warne and McGrath isn't a fantastic record.

I'd actually argue the opposite.

If you have free rein knowing that you don't have to worry about anything would you just go for that wicket every over? He had no reason to hold back and bowl economically, and to show it he had a SR of 42.

Adding to that if you weren't as good a bowler as McGrath and Warne (not too hard at all might I say) then you were inevitably the scape goat. Whether you liked it or not they had to get runs from somewhere, and that was always going to be Lee. They attacked him more, and he was attacking him, leading to more runs flowing. But the rate that he got wickets was very good, so no need for concern.

It was when those two petered off and retired that he showed what he could do.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

No Boris, rather the opposite.

If they were attacking Lee then he should have got more wickets.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

No Boris, rather the opposite.

If they were attacking Lee then he should have got more wickets.

And not try to bowl like McGrath every couple of years when he realises he can't maintain his pace.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

No Boris, rather the opposite.

If they were attacking Lee then he should have got more wickets.

310 wickets in 76 games with a strike rate of 53? How many more wickets do you want?!

There has never been the question that he didn't get enough wickets, just that he cost too many runs to get them, and often there were long periods between his wickets, they would come in groups.

If they were attacking him more, he would get more wickets, but also would go for more runs. From the comparison statistics that were run by Breeno and Eddiesmith a while ago it was determined that he got over 75% of his wickets in the upper order, not tailend wickets, so he wasn't bowling to idiot batsman, of course they will get the one up on him sometimes.

I'm not saying Lee would have been a better bowler if McGrath and Warne weren't there, I'm saying that Lee wouldn't have the record he has and perhaps he wouldn't have even gotten a game.

Because those two were in there the selectors could go for that attacking option and go for a bowler that got wickets and got them fast and regularly. I fail to remember many games where he didn't come out of the match with at least 2 wickets in an innings, he always got something and often got them early.