Opener2
Active Member
I'd argue Money Shield and whatever they call B Grade would be markedly stronger under an 8 team comp.
But whatevs.
But whatevs.
New Dvca Grading Structure
- Thread starter Tongs
- Start date
Tongs
Well-Known Member
YOu just proved my point, you argue only about the 1st XI sides. I am also arguing as a comp as a whole. Not just about Barclay Shield, or the 1st XI sides. But, to respond to what you said: B grade (Division 3) will be filled with a number of sides that realistically don't deserve to be there (Based on the fact they can't even get into Money Shield, or in some cases, play finals in B grade. It would also have some sides "kicked out" because, although they are good enough, its their clubs 2nd XI (NEW). So how would Division 3 be stronger?
Opener2
Active Member
I thought your argument was I only cared about Barclay Shield?
Anyhow, I feel 8 team grades makes for more competitive cricket the whole way through the comp.
Playing sides of similar abilities more often.
I wouldn't make them first xi only, don't mind the clubs such as NEW having clubs higher if they are good enough. So that won't change. I'd just go from 12 -> 8. Probably harsh on the sides who finish 3rd last but get dropped so you'd set a date in 2 years or so to do it. 7x1 day games, 7x2 day games.
Going on this years ladders.
Barclay Shield
Diamond Creek
Lower Eltham
Macleod
Rosanna
Research
Riverside
Bundoora
St Francis
Money Shield
Epping
Plenty
NEW
Mernda
Lalor
Greensborough
Eltham
Bundy United
3rd Shield
Heidelberg
Lower Plenty
Camrea
Monty
Hurstbridge
NEW 2nd xi
Banyule
Mill Park
Anyhow, I feel 8 team grades makes for more competitive cricket the whole way through the comp.
Playing sides of similar abilities more often.
I wouldn't make them first xi only, don't mind the clubs such as NEW having clubs higher if they are good enough. So that won't change. I'd just go from 12 -> 8. Probably harsh on the sides who finish 3rd last but get dropped so you'd set a date in 2 years or so to do it. 7x1 day games, 7x2 day games.
Going on this years ladders.
Barclay Shield
Diamond Creek
Lower Eltham
Macleod
Rosanna
Research
Riverside
Bundoora
St Francis
Money Shield
Epping
Plenty
NEW
Mernda
Lalor
Greensborough
Eltham
Bundy United
3rd Shield
Heidelberg
Lower Plenty
Camrea
Monty
Hurstbridge
NEW 2nd xi
Banyule
Mill Park
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Tongs
Well-Known Member
I agree on this point, unfortunately, the DVCA don't. The top 3 grades will be First XI grades only. Therefore your calculation of the teams are incorrect, as keeping in mind that it will mean that NEW seconds will be forced out and Plenty Valley will now go from 9th place in D grade to now playing in "X Shield" Division 3.
I also fear what the final decisions will be for the now B grade and below grades, based on this decision
Opener2
Active Member
Well mine aren't, as all along I have been stating what I would do, not what the DVCA will...
B grade and below I am as clueless as yourself.
B grade and below I am as clueless as yourself.
shortnwide
Active Member
I'd also argue that it's gilding the lily to call plenty valley a first XI side... I mean it's effectively a 5th XI. Their good players will play through their higher grades. The dvca ought not reserve them a spot as they'll never be up to it...
Tongs
Well-Known Member
I have been asked by a couple of people if they could see the proposal as, surpringly, it is yet to be posted on the DVCA website..
The below has been sent to every club, and it is then up to the club to then share with its members. for those of you that have not read it, i have posted it below.
The below has been sent to every club, and it is then up to the club to then share with its members. for those of you that have not read it, i have posted it below.
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Tongs
Well-Known Member
New first XI structure
The DVCA executive has reviewed the current grade structure of senior cricket in our association with the recommendations to be implemented for the 2016/2017 season. The executive will adopt three first XI grades, made up of 10 clubs in Barclay Shield, 10 clubs in Money Shield and 8 clubs in BGrade. Note: B Grade will re-‐named as a shield grade, with clubs to be given the opportunity to nominate people deserving of the right to be acknowledged in this manner.
The executive has based this decision on a number of benefits for the association, including:
• A more even spread of clubs across three grades, improving the fairness of clubs playing against clubs of similar ability level.
• Reduction in the number of teams in each grade will give more clubs the opportunity to play finals and ensure their seasons remain ‘alive’ further into the season.
• Return to each first XI playing against other first XI sides and encourage clubs to ensure their playingl ists are developed to remain competitive with other first XI sides.
• Offers flexibility for new clubs capable of competing against other first XI sides to enter the competition into a first XI grade.
• Flexibility if there is a reduction of clubs to evolve the structure into 10/8/8 or 8/8/8 or similar.
• Opportunity for 10-‐side grades to play 9 two-‐day matches presenting a fairer fixture. It is noted that the 8-‐side grade will be required to play two clubs twice.
How will the DVCA allocate clubs into the new structure?
All of our current 28 DVCA clubs will be required to compete in one of the three
first XI grades. Based on ladder positions and premiers from season 2015/2016 the executive will re-‐grade teams on the following basis:
• Barclay Shield: 9 highest ranked clubs based on ladder position plus the Money Shield premier.
• Money Shield: 3 lowest ranked clubs from Barclay Shield, 2nd to 7th ranked first XI sides in Money Shield(excludes the Money Shield premier) plus the B Grade premier. If the BGrade premier is a 2nd XI side, then the 8th ranked first XI side will remain in Money Shield.
• BGrade/Third Shield: Remaining 8 clubs to be graded into the third shield.
How will relegation and promotion work in the new structure?
The concept of promotion and relegation will remain but the first XI grades will be separate to any other lower grades. That is, promotion and relegation will exist between Barclay & Money shield and between Money Shields & the 3rd shield Grade but there will not be promotion or relegation between the 3rd shield grade and the grade below.
The DVCA executive has reviewed the current grade structure of senior cricket in our association with the recommendations to be implemented for the 2016/2017 season. The executive will adopt three first XI grades, made up of 10 clubs in Barclay Shield, 10 clubs in Money Shield and 8 clubs in BGrade. Note: B Grade will re-‐named as a shield grade, with clubs to be given the opportunity to nominate people deserving of the right to be acknowledged in this manner.
The executive has based this decision on a number of benefits for the association, including:
• A more even spread of clubs across three grades, improving the fairness of clubs playing against clubs of similar ability level.
• Reduction in the number of teams in each grade will give more clubs the opportunity to play finals and ensure their seasons remain ‘alive’ further into the season.
• Return to each first XI playing against other first XI sides and encourage clubs to ensure their playingl ists are developed to remain competitive with other first XI sides.
• Offers flexibility for new clubs capable of competing against other first XI sides to enter the competition into a first XI grade.
• Flexibility if there is a reduction of clubs to evolve the structure into 10/8/8 or 8/8/8 or similar.
• Opportunity for 10-‐side grades to play 9 two-‐day matches presenting a fairer fixture. It is noted that the 8-‐side grade will be required to play two clubs twice.
How will the DVCA allocate clubs into the new structure?
All of our current 28 DVCA clubs will be required to compete in one of the three
first XI grades. Based on ladder positions and premiers from season 2015/2016 the executive will re-‐grade teams on the following basis:
• Barclay Shield: 9 highest ranked clubs based on ladder position plus the Money Shield premier.
• Money Shield: 3 lowest ranked clubs from Barclay Shield, 2nd to 7th ranked first XI sides in Money Shield(excludes the Money Shield premier) plus the B Grade premier. If the BGrade premier is a 2nd XI side, then the 8th ranked first XI side will remain in Money Shield.
• BGrade/Third Shield: Remaining 8 clubs to be graded into the third shield.
How will relegation and promotion work in the new structure?
The concept of promotion and relegation will remain but the first XI grades will be separate to any other lower grades. That is, promotion and relegation will exist between Barclay & Money shield and between Money Shields & the 3rd shield Grade but there will not be promotion or relegation between the 3rd shield grade and the grade below.
Tongs
Well-Known Member
Structure of lower grades
The executive proposes two options to cater for the structure of grades below first XI cricket.
Option One: Stand-‐alone 2nd XI grades
This structure would basically replicate the structure for first XI sides, with all clubs required to field a 2nd XI in three “reserve” grades split with a10/10/8. If this structure is put in place, all clubs 2nd XI will be ranked from 1 to 28 based on ladder positions at the end of season 2015/2016. Top 10 sides will be placed in the highest reserve grade, then the next 10 into the 2nd reserve grade and the remaining 8 into the 3rd reserve grade. Promotion and relegation will exist between 2nd XI sides, keeping in mind that the premier of top reserve grade will not be promoted and bottom side in the third reserve grade will not be relegated. Promotion and relegation will NOT be tied to their first XI side. That is a club could have a side in Barclay and their 2nd XI in the lowest reserve grade. All remaining grades will be structured as 10 side grades with ladder positions determining the ranking of these sides when grading for season 2016/2017.
OptionTwo: 10 team grades throughout all lower grades
All remaining grades below the new first XI structure will become 10 side grades with potential for these grades to consist a mixture of 2nd XI, 3rd XI etc sides.
In implementing this option, the DVCA will rank and grade each club’s 2nd
XI sides into the top 3 grades below first XI cricket. The 3rd of these grades will consist of 8 2nd XI sides in season 2016/2017 and the two highest ranked 3rd XI sides.
Once this has been implemented there would be no restriction on promotion and relegation within these lower grades. That is, if a club earns the right through promotions, they could have their 2nd, 3rd & 4th XI sides in the top 3 grades that sit below the first XI structure.
The executive proposes two options to cater for the structure of grades below first XI cricket.
Option One: Stand-‐alone 2nd XI grades
This structure would basically replicate the structure for first XI sides, with all clubs required to field a 2nd XI in three “reserve” grades split with a10/10/8. If this structure is put in place, all clubs 2nd XI will be ranked from 1 to 28 based on ladder positions at the end of season 2015/2016. Top 10 sides will be placed in the highest reserve grade, then the next 10 into the 2nd reserve grade and the remaining 8 into the 3rd reserve grade. Promotion and relegation will exist between 2nd XI sides, keeping in mind that the premier of top reserve grade will not be promoted and bottom side in the third reserve grade will not be relegated. Promotion and relegation will NOT be tied to their first XI side. That is a club could have a side in Barclay and their 2nd XI in the lowest reserve grade. All remaining grades will be structured as 10 side grades with ladder positions determining the ranking of these sides when grading for season 2016/2017.
OptionTwo: 10 team grades throughout all lower grades
All remaining grades below the new first XI structure will become 10 side grades with potential for these grades to consist a mixture of 2nd XI, 3rd XI etc sides.
In implementing this option, the DVCA will rank and grade each club’s 2nd
XI sides into the top 3 grades below first XI cricket. The 3rd of these grades will consist of 8 2nd XI sides in season 2016/2017 and the two highest ranked 3rd XI sides.
Once this has been implemented there would be no restriction on promotion and relegation within these lower grades. That is, if a club earns the right through promotions, they could have their 2nd, 3rd & 4th XI sides in the top 3 grades that sit below the first XI structure.
Tongs
Well-Known Member
What will happen with Playing Dates?
Currently the competition consists of 20 playing dates plus finals. Under a proposed fixture with nine 2-‐day matches this will only require 18 playing dates plus finals. The executive is not in favour of losing two playing dates and as such has a number of options that will be discussed and investigated over the next 24 months. Potential options include a T20 carnival played over two weekends, representative match, insert a preliminary final into the finals format.
Next steps
The executive will further discuss and outline the proposal at the AGM in August. At this meeting club Presidents will be asked for feedback on their preferred option for lower grades with the potential for a vote to be conducted.
The executive understands that the proposal will result insome sides elevating a number of grades from their current position. With two seasons to prepare and to seek opportunities to develop their player lists it is felt that this should be seen as a positive for their club. For those clubs that are concerned with their own sides playing in a higher grade in season 2016/2017, they are encouraged to contact the executive in order to work through those concerns.
Currently the competition consists of 20 playing dates plus finals. Under a proposed fixture with nine 2-‐day matches this will only require 18 playing dates plus finals. The executive is not in favour of losing two playing dates and as such has a number of options that will be discussed and investigated over the next 24 months. Potential options include a T20 carnival played over two weekends, representative match, insert a preliminary final into the finals format.
Next steps
The executive will further discuss and outline the proposal at the AGM in August. At this meeting club Presidents will be asked for feedback on their preferred option for lower grades with the potential for a vote to be conducted.
The executive understands that the proposal will result insome sides elevating a number of grades from their current position. With two seasons to prepare and to seek opportunities to develop their player lists it is felt that this should be seen as a positive for their club. For those clubs that are concerned with their own sides playing in a higher grade in season 2016/2017, they are encouraged to contact the executive in order to work through those concerns.
pepper the pig
Active Member
I agree. 8 team grades is great. I feel the same way
about the competitiveness and that it provides a higher % of playing finals.
What's even better is playing 7 x 1 dayers and 7 x 2 dayers which I'm sure would be welcomed with open arms. Breaks up the season, more chance of upsets and less 80 over days in the field .
Tongs
Well-Known Member
Regardless of what people think might be good ideas - If you read the proposal, there is NO mention of 7 One day games, 7 Two games. In fact, it says that this will not be happening.
pepper the pig
Active Member
As Opener2 said, I reckon it's the best system that's all IMO
Tongs
Well-Known Member
Sorry, just saying that my point is that the system that the DVCA are putting in place is full of flaws.
pepper the pig
Active Member
Agreed
Ex Prez
Active Member
If clubs put the structure change in as a rule change proposal, then wont they look at it... ?
If enough push for the 8 team comp then they might listen...?
The issue then becomes the same as we have now - with 4 clubs 1sts (not counting PVB) outside the shield comps... so do we go with 4 shields of 8..with top 4 B grade or new clubs to fill the spaces...? How far do we go...?
I am all for the change to 10 teams.
Start a week later & have the cup weekend off - to make up the 2 weeks, cant see any players / clubs arguing too much here.
I like the option of a prelim final weekend in the finals too...
It is not without flaws.
As discussed PVB shouldnt be promoted to an A grade from 9th in D.
IMO they shouldnt be in the comp since they became Plenty Valley, but thats another arguement.
Tongs - it says that the 2nds will be regraded, ranked 1 to 28..
So that means the 2nd grade teams will not necessarily be in the same order as the firsts.
eg Bundoora might play Lower Eltham in the 1st, but might play Riverside in the 2's...
I think if they move to 3 shields - have to - then all grades below just need to be re-graded as they are now, with full promo / relegation from B grade to H. (10 teams per grade)
- So B grade premier should have option of going up - on the proviso that it is only replacing another 2nd XI team in that grade that is relegated. (and cant be a duplicate team)
No 1st Xi can play outside the 3 shield divisions. (except PVB)
It is always going to have flaws. You mentioned Panton Hill ( example only) previously.
1's finished 6 th in B grade. Their 2's , 7th in F. So they would be promoted 4 grades up...??
Would be a farce.
As it sits, they come into the 3rd shield comp, and their 2nds should play F or G on current ranking.
It is up to clubs that have not got strong lower grade numbers to do so. The stronger clubs will find themselves at the top of the B/C grade and the weaker lower...
I think, in time, you will find it will closely mirror where the clubs sit in their 1's anyway.
FYI - those that dont realise, the current D grade comp - consisted of 7 teams 2nds this year. ( and 1 x 1st PVB). Playing aginst some teams 3's.
If they re - grade all to 10 teams, then this flaw will even itself out through the grades one would hope.
If enough push for the 8 team comp then they might listen...?
The issue then becomes the same as we have now - with 4 clubs 1sts (not counting PVB) outside the shield comps... so do we go with 4 shields of 8..with top 4 B grade or new clubs to fill the spaces...? How far do we go...?
I am all for the change to 10 teams.
Start a week later & have the cup weekend off - to make up the 2 weeks, cant see any players / clubs arguing too much here.
I like the option of a prelim final weekend in the finals too...
It is not without flaws.
As discussed PVB shouldnt be promoted to an A grade from 9th in D.
IMO they shouldnt be in the comp since they became Plenty Valley, but thats another arguement.
Tongs - it says that the 2nds will be regraded, ranked 1 to 28..
So that means the 2nd grade teams will not necessarily be in the same order as the firsts.
eg Bundoora might play Lower Eltham in the 1st, but might play Riverside in the 2's...
I think if they move to 3 shields - have to - then all grades below just need to be re-graded as they are now, with full promo / relegation from B grade to H. (10 teams per grade)
- So B grade premier should have option of going up - on the proviso that it is only replacing another 2nd XI team in that grade that is relegated. (and cant be a duplicate team)
No 1st Xi can play outside the 3 shield divisions. (except PVB)
It is always going to have flaws. You mentioned Panton Hill ( example only) previously.
1's finished 6 th in B grade. Their 2's , 7th in F. So they would be promoted 4 grades up...??
Would be a farce.
As it sits, they come into the 3rd shield comp, and their 2nds should play F or G on current ranking.
It is up to clubs that have not got strong lower grade numbers to do so. The stronger clubs will find themselves at the top of the B/C grade and the weaker lower...
I think, in time, you will find it will closely mirror where the clubs sit in their 1's anyway.
FYI - those that dont realise, the current D grade comp - consisted of 7 teams 2nds this year. ( and 1 x 1st PVB). Playing aginst some teams 3's.
If they re - grade all to 10 teams, then this flaw will even itself out through the grades one would hope.
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YouKnowNothing
Member
I can't see what the upside of changing from 12 to 10 is????
Warwick Todd
Active Member
I've come up with an idea for a 12 club competition
1 Lower Eltham
2 Eltham
3 Diamond Creek
4 Lower Plenty
5 Montmorency
6 Research
7 Riverside
8 Plenty
9 Hurstbridge
10 Bundoora United
11 Bundoora
12 North Eltham Wanderes (just sneak in)
The top grade would be called A Grade and in B Grade all the 2nd XI's can play each other.
It would have 9 x 2 day games and 2 x 1 day games.
1 Lower Eltham
2 Eltham
3 Diamond Creek
4 Lower Plenty
5 Montmorency
6 Research
7 Riverside
8 Plenty
9 Hurstbridge
10 Bundoora United
11 Bundoora
12 North Eltham Wanderes (just sneak in)
The top grade would be called A Grade and in B Grade all the 2nd XI's can play each other.
It would have 9 x 2 day games and 2 x 1 day games.
My thoughts
Barclay Shield stays as a 12 team, top grade competition. This is the elite grade of the association and should stay untouched.
Money Shield and "3/C" grade have 8 teams each that play eachother in the 7 x 2 day / 7 x 1 day format. Each team gets a home, and an away game against eachother. Clubs know they have 2 years to be 'up-to-scratch' to remain in Money, ensuring they are one step closer to Barclay Shield.
Unfortunately, 5 teams will fall from Money to "3/C" grade to implement the upcoming change. However, this grade will be most competitve as clubs vie to be one step closer to Barclay.
From then on, "4/D" and below should have 12 teams.
BMW
Barclay Shield stays as a 12 team, top grade competition. This is the elite grade of the association and should stay untouched.
Money Shield and "3/C" grade have 8 teams each that play eachother in the 7 x 2 day / 7 x 1 day format. Each team gets a home, and an away game against eachother. Clubs know they have 2 years to be 'up-to-scratch' to remain in Money, ensuring they are one step closer to Barclay Shield.
Unfortunately, 5 teams will fall from Money to "3/C" grade to implement the upcoming change. However, this grade will be most competitve as clubs vie to be one step closer to Barclay.
From then on, "4/D" and below should have 12 teams.
BMW