Sometimes You're Better Off Just Being You...

[leftie600]

Great article on a guy that got crushed by coaches, including Terry Jenner. Also makes you think about you and the game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/857117.html

At least he's a happy man now!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Great article on a guy that got crushed by coaches, including Terry Jenner. Also makes you think about you and the game:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/857117.html

At least he's a happy man now!

Hmmm - that's crap, who do you look to then for advice? I suppose it makes sense that you might try these different approaches suggested by different people and then I guess you reject them on the basis that they don't suit your for whatever reason? I'm still kind of surprised that Jenner was that insistent that the right way was the Warne way and that only.

 

[leftie600]

Hmmm - that's crap, who do you look to then for advice? I suppose it makes sense that you might try these different approaches suggested by different people and then I guess you reject them on the basis that they don't suit your for whatever reason? I'm still kind of surprised that Jenner was that insistent that the right way was the Warne way and that only.

I can vouch for his experience in NZ in the 90's (not at that level though!). No one knew anything about legspin other than the occasional Philpott or Jenner seminar and I can tell you that it showed in the coaching.

Loveridge bowled flat legbreaks because that was the best way to take advantage of NZs mud pitches from that era. Bowling like that got him wickets and got him noticed, coaches then took him aside, reviewed some Warne videos and told him that he had to change. Loveridge attempts the change and watches his bowling fall to pieces...and it got really bad.

Jenner does deserve some criticism for this as he pretty much only advocated his legspinning way and didn't leave the door open for others. I wonder if he was partly responsible for the Australia's lack of legspinning options after Warne and MacGill retired?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I can vouch for his experience in NZ in the 90's (not at that level though!). No one knew anything about legspin other than the occasional Philpott or Jenner seminar and I can tell you that it showed in the coaching.

Loveridge bowled flat legbreaks because that was the best way to take advantage of NZs mud pitches from that era. Bowling like that got him wickets and got him noticed, coaches then took him aside, reviewed some Warne videos and told him that he had to change. Loveridge attempts the change and watches his bowling fall to pieces...and it got really bad.

Jenner does deserve some criticism for this as he pretty much only advocated his legspinning way and didn't leave the door open for others. I wonder if he was partly responsible for the Australia's lack of legspinning options after Warne and MacGill retired?

Yeah maybe? I wonder if Warne if he coached would try and replicate what he's been taught by Jenner and is that the reason perhaps that Steve Smith waned after Warne's apparent intervention? It does seem that Warne can only bowl like Warne and it does seem that people like Rashid (Adil) went down the pan after Warne's intervention?

 

[leftie600]

Yeah maybe? I wonder if Warne if he coached would try and replicate what he's been taught by Jenner and is that the reason perhaps that Steve Smith waned after Warne's apparent intervention? It does seem that Warne can only bowl like Warne and it does seem that people like Rashid (Adil) went down the pan after Warne's intervention?

If Warne came to you and told you how you should be bowling you'd probably do it, as would I, but is it actually the best way for you to bowl? As you've seen with the videos people have posted we're all different with only some base fundamentals that link those different styles.

Imagine if your bowling was fine and then someone attempted to reconstruct you in their image of what you should be bowling despite the fact it may not be any better than what you currently do. That was Loveridge's downfall and I've seen it happen to a lot of potential legspinners.

I'm not saying people should ignore the advice they're given but at least be willing to give feedback to coaches when they are not comfortable with the changes being made.

 

[TonyM]

...I'm not saying people should ignore the advice they're given but at least be willing to give feedback to coaches when they are not comfortable with the changes being made.

This whole perfect action idea, is is something the ECB are now trying to get their coaches away from, although it is difficult because what do you replace it with if you are an inexperienced coach? As ever there are good and bad coaches and even within the good category they might not be good for a particular player, so finding the right advice is often difficult (added to the fact that playing ability does not equate to coaching ability). As a coach, I am happy to receive feedback if players have given something I have suggested a go but don't feel that it works for them, but hopefully the suggestion was based on observation and experience ie thought about, not just 'you ought to bowl more like Warne, McGill, whoever'

 

[someblokecalleddave]

This whole perfect action idea, is is something the ECB are now trying to get their coaches away from, although it is difficult because what do you replace it with if you are an inexperienced coach? As ever there are good and bad coaches and even within the good category they might not be good for a particular player, so finding the right advice is often difficult (added to the fact that playing ability does not equate to coaching ability). As a coach, I am happy to receive feedback if players have given something I have suggested a go but don't feel that it works for them, but hopefully the suggestion was based on observation and experience ie thought about, not just 'you ought to bowl more like Warne, McGill, whoever'

It's a tricky one this, but just to start; At your club Tony in relation to this, how often do you get to work with kids or anyone that is working with spin, do they know to come to you, or does someone at the club say to them "Mate you're pants, go and speak to Tony and he'll get you back on track" or "See Tony, he'll show you how to get the ball spinning"?

 

[TonyM]

Unfortunately, I am not working with any spinners at present. I moved clubs this time last year and am the only qualified coach at my new club so I guess juniors would come to me, but we are still a good way away from that at present (its still at the herding cats stage, although it gets better every week). I have identified a potential spinner who is currently under 10 but that is not based on anything physical, just that he seems to have the right mental attributes.

At my previous club, and district, I did work with a number of junior spinners and I would hope that I helped develop them as bowlers. Did everything I suggest work? No. At times was some of the advice 'generic'? Unfortunately yes, although I would say less so as the years passed, in the same way that you have periods where the bowling clicks, it is not that different with coaching. Would I class myself as a spin expert, no nothing like, but the best bit of coaching I did on my recent CPD workshops was spin related so can't be all bad.

 

[boogiespinner]

Some of the greatest bowlers in history have been flat-trajectory spinners. If you can spin it at pace, where's the problem? Derek Underwood had people telling him to change his action and slow down, but he realised the batsmen that faced him never seemed to enjoy the ball coming onto them quickly. Tiger O'Reilly famously told Arthur Mailey to stuff it when he got told to slow down. And then there's the legendary SF Barnes who has the claim to being the greatest bowler anyone has ever seen.

 

[boogiespinner]

A lovely piece of advice in the Philpott book is where he says listen to the experts but also work it out for yourself and have the confidence to do things your own way if you are really convinced.

The Buddha said something rather similar.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Unfortunately, I am not working with any spinners at present. I moved clubs this time last year and am the only qualified coach at my new club so I guess juniors would come to me, but we are still a good way away from that at present (its still at the herding cats stage, although it gets better every week). I have identified a potential spinner who is currently under 10 but that is not based on anything physical, just that he seems to have the right mental attributes.

At my previous club, and district, I did work with a number of junior spinners and I would hope that I helped develop them as bowlers. Did everything I suggest work? No. At times was some of the advice 'generic'? Unfortunately yes, although I would say less so as the years passed, in the same way that you have periods where the bowling clicks, it is not that different with coaching. Would I class myself as a spin expert, no nothing like, but the best bit of coaching I did on my recent CPD workshops was spin related so can't be all bad.

The questions was digging for an answer that related more to how kids identify themselves as spin bowlers, do they see something as I did that inspires them and therefore the desire is intrinsic, or is it that they get written off as seam up bowlers and designated as potential spin bowlers and moulded into one? You've said they go to you, or is it they're sent to you by senior players? I always feel like I'm herding cats as you say (I like that description)! We've got two kids at the moment that are spinners and they're both pretty good (Leggies). More than anything I'd be inclined to let them be other than encouraging them, I think they have to find their own way if the desire is intrinsic, but them if they approach you independently or someone says they've had a couple of poor games and they're thinking about throwing the towel in, I might then intervene, but primarily in a supportive role initially. I'd be hoping for them to say 'I can't do A B or C and then ask them what they feel they're doing wrong and see if they can figure what my have changed. If I was to advise anything remedial, it would be very simple... Make sure you're relaxed, bowl with a loose grip. That kind of thing.

So the kid you're saying is the potential spinner, what's your next move and how will you cultivate the potential there?

 

[leftie600]

Interestingly Adil Rashid who got his bowling back to a decent level last county season has been asked by the England coaching staff to speed up his bowling as they believe he is too slow for tests. The inside word is that with that work he has, of course, lost the spin he was getting.

Another case of unnecessary changes and if he was too slow for tests he should have been told so and left out of the test squad!

 

[TonyM]

The questions was digging for an answer that related more to how kids identify themselves as spin bowlers, do they see something as I did that inspires them and therefore the desire is intrinsic, or is it that they get written off as seam up bowlers and designated as potential spin bowlers and moulded into one?

I think it is probably a bit of both, although unfortunately with the reduction in free to air TV coverage, I would say less and less players are coming with a real idea of what cricket is, unless there is a family member who plays/played, so the kids don't necessarily know about different bowling styles themselves. I have also seen lots of kids who naturally spin the ball when they first start to bowl, almost by accident, and that can trigger an interest to develop that further in some of them. From a club point of view, at least one of the junior sessions will be devoted to spinning (all styles) to let everyone have a go.

I suppose there is an element of 'failed seam up' bowler syndrome, although I think this is an evolving process with bowlers as I look to give them options right from the start - once bowlers have a solid basic action and I then start to look down the other end to give them options (is it extra pace? are they a 'dot ball pressure builder'? can they cut or swing the ball? do they have good control so can bowl different lines and lengths?) basically anything that can give them an advantage over the batter. For some this might be spinning the ball, but the big thing I look for before offering this as an option is their personality - can they train and can they come back from being hit? Obviously if they want to spin the ball then we can then work on the mental side, but I would never 'push' (wrong word) someone into being a spinner without those two attributes.

You've said they go to you, or is it they're sent to you by senior players? I always feel like I'm herding cats as you say (I like that description)! We've got two kids at the moment that are spinners and they're both pretty good (Leggies). More than anything I'd be inclined to let them be other than encouraging them, I think they have to find their own way if the desire is intrinsic, but them if they approach you independently or someone says they've had a couple of poor games and they're thinking about throwing the towel in, I might then intervene, but primarily in a supportive role initially. I'd be hoping for them to say 'I can't do A B or C and then ask them what they feel they're doing wrong and see if they can figure what my have changed. If I was to advise anything remedial, it would be very simple... Make sure you're relaxed, bowl with a loose grip. That kind of thing.

I think that is spot on, unless there is something horrible in their action that is hindering their progress, you need to be careful when to intervene.

So the kid you're saying is the potential spinner, what's your next move and how will you cultivate the potential there?

He is new so still working on basic bowling action at the moment but might do a little bit with him when I next do some 1-2-1 bowling work with the kids (taking them out in turn from a group session to work with them individually). Essentially looking at release point and then maybe incorporating some spin to see what he thinks

 

[boogiespinner]

I suppose there is an element of 'failed seam up' bowler syndrome

I'm not sure there is anything wrong with such a syndrome...

Hedley Verity "Initially a medium-paced bowler, he switched to bowling spin in an attempt to secure a place in the Yorkshire team."
Murali "He began his cricketing career as a medium pace bowler but on the advice of his school coach, Sunil Fernando, he took up off-spin when he was fourteen years old."
Clarrie Grimmett "A schoolmaster encouraged him to concentrate on spin bowling rather than fast bowling."
SF Barnes "In 1894, when Barnes was a 21-year-old fast bowler, he was asked to join the ground staff of Staffordshire County Cricket Club"
Jim Laker "In his junior days he was a fast bowler before being persuaded to alter his trade."
Shane Warne "I was surprised when Anwar once told me he had actually been a spin bowler as a kid. Then again, I was a medium-pace bowler, and I know other players who developed in different ways"
Derek Underwood "as all youngsters do, I wanted to be a fast bowler. I suppose when it came to the transition between youth cricket and adult cricket I was no longer quick anymore"

I'm finding that pretty much every great spin bowler once bowled seam up, quite possibly up to professional level... Benaud is the only one I can find so far that seemed to bowl exclusively spin from the start, although I certainly haven't checked them all out.