Steven Smith, video link, general thoughts

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Jim2109 said:
what on earth is Warne talking about in the first video regarding the Slider?! palm of the hand facing the batsman is just a square leg break. when he demonstrates it he is clearly showing it as a backspinner by his wrist angle, and then just completely mis-describing it. when he bowls the demonstration delivery hes just dragging the fingers down the back to scramble it. the match delivery they show isnt even a slider, its a leg break that didnt turn.
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I was just about to write the same thing. Its just philpotts hard spun leg break. I'm not sure why it should slide on, in theory it should drift to the right the most out of any delivery and turn sharply although not quickly as there is no top spin.The only thing I can think is it gets no grip on super hard test pitches and "slides" on.
I think when the ball is pushed out the front of the hand ( Philpotts exercise of holding the ball out it front of yourself and spinning it back to your chest) it gives the illusion that the fingers are running down the back of the ball but that isn't actually occuring.
Is this just another one of Warnes deceptions. He mentions he and Jenner were working on it so why would Jenner call the round the loop backspinner the slider. If they can't even come to some concensus what hope do we have!!!
Great work with the vids golden arm
 
he describes it like a square leg break, but when he actually bowls it the seam has scrambled, so i think hes just pushing it out the front of the hand and running the fingers down the back of it. which is a slider. in the match footage its clearly an overspun leg break out of the hand, you can see the hand action, but the seam isnt clear in the footage. it looks like it may be scrambled, in which case that is his "other" slider, the scrambled seam leg break.

neither of them are the "orthodox back spinner", aka the zooter. Jenner has always called his backspinner the slider though. it makes you wonder if professionals arent as in the dark as we are. back in the early 90's they wouldnt have had the video technology that theyve got now, and it certainly wouldnt have been as accessible. maybe Warne literally just did what Jenner told him, and relied on human vision as feedback for what the ball was doing. theres every chance he genuinely didnt know what the Slider did! weve had many discussions on here about how bowler perception can vary wildly from the reality of what the ball does after it leaves the hand (as well as the action itself). its plausible.
 
Jim2109 said:
he describes it like a square leg break, but when he actually bowls it the seam has scrambled, so i think hes just pushing it out the front of the hand and running the fingers down the back of it. which is a slider. in the match footage its clearly an overspun leg break out of the hand, you can see the hand action, but the seam isnt clear in the footage. it looks like it may be scrambled, in which case that is his "other" slider, the scrambled seam leg break.

neither of them are the "orthodox back spinner", aka the zooter. Jenner has always called his backspinner the slider though. it makes you wonder if professionals arent as in the dark as we are. back in the early 90's they wouldnt have had the video technology that theyve got now, and it certainly wouldnt have been as accessible. maybe Warne literally just did what Jenner told him, and relied on human vision as feedback for what the ball was doing. theres every chance he genuinely didnt know what the Slider did! weve had many discussions on here about how bowler perception can vary wildly from the reality of what the ball does after it leaves the hand (as well as the action itself). its plausible.
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I reckon we should stop trying to get to the bottom of what is called what and revel in the fact that because we cant even agree on names that no one else (batsmen) have a hope of knowing what we are bowling. If we get a standardised system all the mystery and intrigue we need will be gone. Jims got a Zooter, Ive got a slider, noone needs to know they are the same delivery. Us devotees need only to explain it a bit to know what we mean.
 
Jim2109 said:
what on earth is Warne talking about in the first video regarding the Slider?! palm of the hand facing the batsman is just a square leg break. when he demonstrates it he is clearly showing it as a backspinner by his wrist angle, and then just completely mis-describing it. when he bowls the demonstration delivery hes just dragging the fingers down the back to scramble it. the match delivery they show isnt even a slider, its a leg break that didnt turn.
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yeah fair point, i hadn't actually spotted that! but for me the slider IS the scrambled seam ball which you kinda pull down on the ball to achieve. its an under and front of the hand delivery. the philpott 'going further round than a square leg break' slider sounds impossible to me,i've never seen anyone actually bowl it anyway. dunno why he demonstrates that ball then does something different. very odd. in the tutorial with mark nicholas he def refers to the slider as a front of the hand ball and there's no mention of the philpott method at all. but gotta disagree about the slider they show at the end. its definitely a slider, you can tell by the way he's pulled down on the ball and how its pitched a little shorter and faster than normal. looks so different to his leg break from behind.
 
Thanks GA great video. Where are you digging all these from? I agree that he is describing the big leg break there with the palm facing the batsman, it is very similar to the ball that bowled andrew strauss
 
Macca do you think smith was under orders not to bowl any variations bar one googly . Could it be that they may play him instead of hauritz and do not want to show their hand?
After all it happened with warne who was ordered not to bowl any variations and was carted by Graham Hick playing for worcestershire. It also happened with hollies not showing bradman his googly and also to peebles against bradman if I am not mistaken.
 
Jim2109 said:
what on earth is Warne talking about in the first video regarding the Slider?! palm of the hand facing the batsman is just a square leg break. when he demonstrates it he is clearly showing it as a backspinner by his wrist angle, and then just completely mis-describing it. when he bowls the demonstration delivery hes just dragging the fingers down the back to scramble it. the match delivery they show isnt even a slider, its a leg break that didnt turn.
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Chinese whispers - I've just posted something about the validity of explanations on film and the ephemeral nature of this kind of approach to explaining deliveries. Not until Warne sits down and writes about it and desribes the Slider in a formal written manner which is then edited properly with the sole intention of defining how to bowl a slider can we accept the description as being definitive in academic terms. This is my issue with the slider - there is no written description by anyone as far as I can make out that has the status to claim to have described the definitive 'Slider'. As far as I'm concerned till that happens the Slider is open to interpretation and evolution.

Or is there a written definition - if so where and who by?
 
It looks okay from where we're sitting! But give em some time, things may change. I've got to say I saw North bowl at Lords when he took a load of wickets against the Pakistanis and he looked better than Smith. Smiths young and he shouldn't be exposed to this series I reckon, keep him back rather than screw up his confidence. Doherty - give him a few more chances and withdraw him if he's getting smashed. Apparently Swann's not enjoying it either, it looks like both sides have the slow bowlers in their sights and are taking them to task as a strategy, they've now got to come up with plans, this is where Warne was a genius.
 
After the hiding Aus received yesterday they've got to make some changes. I think bringing a few younger guys in could freshen things up a bit. Phil Hughes will likely come in for Katich (seeing as he's injured himself) which I think will be good. And I reckon they should bring Steve Smith in for North. He could easily do a similar job to North. He's definitely got the batting to play at six (or seven, behind Haddin) and maybe bowl a few overs as well.

Do you reckon four seamers at the WACA or keep Doherty... or bring back Haury maybe?
 
Antipodean said:
After the hiding Aus received yesterday they've got to make some changes. I think bringing a few younger guys in could freshen things up a bit. Phil Hughes will likely come in for Katich (seeing as he's injured himself) which I think will be good. And I reckon they should bring Steve Smith in for North. He could easily do a similar job to North. He's definitely got the batting to play at six (or seven, behind Haddin) and maybe bowl a few overs as well.

Do you reckon four seamers at the WACA or keep Doherty... or bring back Haury maybe?
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Its the old shuffling the deckchairs on the titanic. When your best isn't good enough not much you can do. At least oz legspin can say it played no part in the biggest flaying of an Australian bowling attack in living memory.
Gotta play a spinner at the waca, always, unless its the 1980's and you are the west indies. If 3 pacemen cant do it a 4th usually wont either.

I reckon they should pick smith for north and boyce for doherty and go for a double legspin attack. But then of course this is a wristspin thread so what do you expect me to say ?

They will probably go hauritz and smith in the same team. At least the selectors can say both players have been part of their plan for a while now, unlike the doherty disaster which was a last minute tasmaniacal ponting brainwave.

They invested a lot in hauritz the last 18 months, and he has the most experience on 4th and 5th day wickets. Smith outbowled hauritz yesterday in sydney but then hauritz outbatted smith today.
 
I saw that. I agree, Hauritz and Smith should both play. The whole Doherty thing was very strange. After their constant backing of Hauritz they suddenly do a massive U-turn. If only they'd done the same thing with North sooner. What's the pitch like at the WACA? All I know is that it's traditionally fast and bouncy (perfect for Johnson really - hopefully he can regain some form at his home ground), is it likely to take turn as the match wears on, like Adelaide did?

Excellent spell of offspin by Swann on the last day, it has to be said. He really is the best going around at the minute.
 
I was working in the city today and got work knocked over by lunch so me and my mate packed up the tools and headed to the scg to watch the shield match. Luckily its not televised so no chance of the boss catching us out!!
Its only 7 dollars to get in and they open up the Ladies stand to watch it from. Great spot and the small crowd means plenty of room to stretch out and put your feet up. Kids have no trouble getting autographs as the players dressing rooms are at the back of the stand. Its a really good afternoon.
They had Cooper bowling offies for S.Australia and I was surprised just how slow his pace was. Im sure I bowl a bit quicker than him. It works for him though as he removed Kwaljha. Their full time offie was probably 20k/h faster than him and more the pace I would expect.
Its a shame I couldnt see Smith bowling live.
 
chippyben said:
I was working in the city today and got work knocked over by lunch so me and my mate packed up the tools and headed to the scg to watch the shield match. Luckily its not televised so no chance of the boss catching us out!!
Its only 7 dollars to get in and they open up the Ladies stand to watch it from. Great spot and the small crowd means plenty of room to stretch out and put your feet up. Kids have no trouble getting autographs as the players dressing rooms are at the back of the stand. Its a really good afternoon.
They had Cooper bowling offies for S.Australia and I was surprised just how slow his pace was. Im sure I bowl a bit quicker than him. It works for him though as he removed Kwaljha. Their full time offie was probably 20k/h faster than him and more the pace I would expect.
Its a shame I couldnt see Smith bowling live.
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So you are a chippy , chippyben?

Gettin in the ladies stand was a good score. Be good to be able to sit there at a test.
 
macca said:
So you are a chippy , chippyben?

Gettin in the ladies stand was a good score. Be good to be able to sit there at a test.
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Too right mate, Need a house building???

I dont think there is a better spot to watch cricket from than the ladies stand. They still segregate the members stand but usually the Ladies and Noble stand are members only too so its nice to get in there. My mate is on the waiting list for scg membership but I think it takes 10 years.
I was thinking yesterday sitting there that the stand has seen everyone from Trumper, Bradman and Grimmett through to Warne, Tendulker and Kallis.
Come to think of it maybe sitting up in the Moreton Bay Fig at North Sydney Oval would be better if it didn't get uncomfortable.
 
chippyben said:
Too right mate, Need a house building???

I dont think there is a better spot to watch cricket from than the ladies stand. They still segregate the members stand but usually the Ladies and Noble stand are members only too so its nice to get in there. My mate is on the waiting list for scg membership but I think it takes 10 years.
I was thinking yesterday sitting there that the stand has seen everyone from Trumper, Bradman and Grimmett through to Warne, Tendulker and Kallis.
Come to think of it maybe sitting up in the Moreton Bay Fig at North Sydney Oval would be better if it didn't get uncomfortable.
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Young Cameron Boyce from Qld is a chippy too. Good he has a trade to fall back on given the treatment spinners have been getting lately. You have to laugh that Warnes only real job was pizza delivery boy.

I go for the O'Rielly stand these days. It's good to swap around a bit. The Hill and the Sheridan and the old long gone Visitors Stand have all been favourites of mine.
 
macca said:
Young Cameron Boyce from Qld is a chippy too. Good he has a trade to fall back on given the treatment spinners have been getting lately. You have to laugh that Warnes only real job was pizza delivery boy.

I go for the O'Rielly stand these days. It's good to swap around a bit. The Hill and the Sheridan and the old long gone Visitors Stand have all been favourites of mine.
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Well Im backing Boyce all the way now!!! Looks like Warne ate a few of those pizzas too!
I sat in the Oreilly for a day nighter and got fried by the afternoon sun. We actually placed bets on the time the sun would go under the brewongle stand. I sat in the upper part of the Bradman stand last time, a bit more expensive but well worth it.
Where was the visitors stand?
 
Smith in for North. Well the young bloke gets his chance now.

Like mark taylor was saying about smith, club spinners can pick up a lot from watching smith compared to warne , in a sense, because smith is more like a cub spinner ! Fields set to get catches on the off side rather than lots of close in guys. smith had his slip too fine in tassie, but that was whites call.

He needs to bowl with that shape that he started his second spell in tassie, it got Goochie to come out and grab a seat as close as he could to check the young N.S.Welshman out.

He has had a good game this week against South Australia with 8 wickets and half century so he is the form allrounder right now.
 
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