I haven't bowled one in the nets yet but I thought it might get a lot of drift. I'll have to give it a go.
Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)
- Thread starter Richard the Third
- Start date
I haven't bowled one in the nets yet but I thought it might get a lot of drift. I'll have to give it a go.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Sounds good, just keep up that air of indifference and keep plugging away with your bowling and try not to over-think it and bowl natrually, although that's a lot easier said than done!
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
The weather! It has been unbelievable here in the UK, probably the sunniest and warmest Easter holiday I've ever experienced in my 50 years. We've had almost a week and a half of sunshine and temps in the 18-25 region and wickets everywhere are cracking up what with having no rain for weeks, so that should suit your spinning down to the ground, Jim and you might get some bounce?
futureblackcap
Well-Known Member
I had a practice earlier today and I got my sister to video me. Heres my videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORwvLqaJN5o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LZBwudwlVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJcarYtju4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSIcjJUbY0Y
Please have a look, and give me any advice.
Thanks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORwvLqaJN5o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LZBwudwlVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJcarYtju4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSIcjJUbY0Y
Please have a look, and give me any advice.
Thanks
Disagree Jim, I'm a massive Rashid fan. I've seen him bowl live twice now, once 3 years ago against Notts in a T20 (where it is notorious for not turning), and once for England (10-1-37-0). Both times he consistently turned it, in good areas too. If you look the game before Jim, he did take 11 wickets on a pitch known for seaming and not turning...
I think you're being grossly unfair, he's got a lot of tricks and he uses them wisely. I think he'll take another hatful this season like last season, and to be fair to the lad he does average 40 with the bat...!doctortran
Member
Thinking about rhythm is not good. It makes you think about what you were doing, what you should be doing, instead of what you are doing at the present moment.
But it has to be said. Let's get straight into the delivery stride you want. Break it down to two steps.
1) Hips move first with your front shoulder. Your bowling arm is relaxed and back. Your trunk is not moving yet with your front shoulder. Depending on your thoughts on high front arm -- it goes up then down or stays level with your back shoulder and then pushes down. Your trunk is not moving yet. As your front shoulder goes down your back hip tries to push up and forward and you hips end up tilting. Sort of like / (like a forward slash) but less steep obviously.
2) Now your trunk moves after your hips start moving. The quicker the transition from your hips and front shoulder then into the entire trunk the more power. As your hips have already tilted your trunk now catches up. Another way of seeing it is that your back hip drives up and your trunk slightly later follows and then your shoulder.
Here we have a reason for why you stay as still as you can at the crease. You don't want to rotate your trunk too early. Too early and you can't get your legs going before your trunk. You disrupt the chain of velocity production.
1) If you watch the Gatting ball Warne hardly moves his trunk as he brings his arm up and then his shoulder down. Notice his back hip tensing and his back leg is obviously trying to put force forward and up.
2) Then his hip pushes forward enough to be square to the wicket and then his trunk follows so that the tilt difference between hip and trunk no longer exists.
Hips and front shoulder. Then trunk lining up and catching up with hips. Then bowling shoulder. This will probably sound like apples are oranges, but it feels like three semi-quavers in a row, or three quick gun shots. BAM BAM BAM! Hopefully that makes sense.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Thinking about rhythm is not good. It makes you think about what you were doing, what you should be doing, instead of what you are doing at the present moment.
But it has to be said. Let's get straight into the delivery stride you want. Break it down to two steps.
1) Hips move first with your front shoulder. Your bowling arm is relaxed and back. Your trunk is not moving yet with your front shoulder. Depending on your thoughts on high front arm -- it goes up then down or stays level with your back shoulder and then pushes down. Your trunk is not moving yet. As your front shoulder goes down your back hip tries to push up and forward and you hips end up tilting. Sort of like / (like a forward slash) but less steep obviously.
2) Now your trunk moves after your hips start moving. The quicker the transition from your hips and front shoulder then into the entire trunk the more power. As your hips have already tilted your trunk now catches up. Another way of seeing it is that your back hip drives up and your trunk slightly later follows and then your shoulder.
Here we have a reason for why you stay as still as you can at the crease. You don't want to rotate your trunk too early. Too early and you can't get your legs going before your trunk. You disrupt the chain of velocity production.
1) If you watch the Gatting ball Warne hardly moves his trunk as he brings his arm up and then his shoulder down. Notice his back hip tensing and his back leg is obviously trying to put force forward and up.
2) Then his hip pushes forward enough to be square to the wicket and then his trunk follows so that the tilt difference between hip and trunk no longer exists.
Hips and front shoulder. Then trunk lining up and catching up with hips. Then bowling shoulder. This will probably sound like apples are oranges, but it feels like three semi-quavers in a row, or three quick gun shots. BAM BAM BAM! Hopefully that makes sense.
I think that's a tall order to be able to digest all that and turn it into some kind of tangible plan, but then I'm not a learner that particularly does well with written instructions, I'm more what's called a kineasthetic learner, so if you find this confusing FBC, rather than saying nothing, you should respond and say so, I'm sure Doctortran wont mind and his work here wont be in vain as it'll be useful to someone else that is reading the thread and not necessarily making any contributions to the threads, of which there are loads. There also appears to be an image missing for some reason and that'll be useful for all the visual learners out there including myself if it was to be up-loaded again so that it appears.
futureblackcap
Well-Known Member
Thinking about rhythm is not good. It makes you think about what you were doing, what you should be doing, instead of what you are doing at the present moment.
But it has to be said. Let's get straight into the delivery stride you want. Break it down to two steps.
1) Hips move first with your front shoulder. Your bowling arm is relaxed and back. Your trunk is not moving yet with your front shoulder. Depending on your thoughts on high front arm -- it goes up then down or stays level with your back shoulder and then pushes down. Your trunk is not moving yet. As your front shoulder goes down your back hip tries to push up and forward and you hips end up tilting. Sort of like / (like a forward slash) but less steep obviously.
2) Now your trunk moves after your hips start moving. The quicker the transition from your hips and front shoulder then into the entire trunk the more power. As your hips have already tilted your trunk now catches up. Another way of seeing it is that your back hip drives up and your trunk slightly later follows and then your shoulder.
Here we have a reason for why you stay as still as you can at the crease. You don't want to rotate your trunk too early. Too early and you can't get your legs going before your trunk. You disrupt the chain of velocity production.
1) If you watch the Gatting ball Warne hardly moves his trunk as he brings his arm up and then his shoulder down. Notice his back hip tensing and his back leg is obviously trying to put force forward and up.
2) Then his hip pushes forward enough to be square to the wicket and then his trunk follows so that the tilt difference between hip and trunk no longer exists.
Hips and front shoulder. Then trunk lining up and catching up with hips. Then bowling shoulder. This will probably sound like apples are oranges, but it feels like three semi-quavers in a row, or three quick gun shots. BAM BAM BAM! Hopefully that makes sense.
Firstly, thanks for your thoughts.
I have a few questions regarding your advice. Some of it, I did find a bit confusing. I'm a visual learner as well so if you have any pictures or videos that can help represent what your saying, that would be great.
When you said "Hips move first with your front shoulder". what do you actually mean, is this the process leading up to the point of release or before the run up begins?
For some reason your image didn't work, I'm sure this would be a lot easier to understand if the image was there.
Brilliant doctortran. your posts should be printed out into a book. one reason for many of us to come over here and check bc everyday.
Just wondering if staying side on is just another way of saying what you described here. Some start side on, but are said to open up before they bowl ( macgill, stuart law).
Because in a plane perpendicular to the pitch, your body is moving together (well almost), so the only axis i can see lead and lag come in is the rotation axis about the bowlers' head.
The pictures on drtrans posts are a bit temperemental, sometimes they come up sometimes they don't. When they do it makes the post a whole lot clearer. I think your right shrek about keeping side on for longer. Its like the advice on page 60 of Philpotts book where he says to tuck the front arm into the ribs to delay the upper half of the body opening up too soon.
Also what I glean from it is something that Jim and Dave talked to me about when I posted my first videos up a year ago. That is keeping the hips and shoulders aligned throughout the whole delivery. I did what FBC is doing where the top half of his body races ahead of the bottom half. In that way you are only getting power from the top half of your body and bowling arm and nothing from the legs.
Drtrans posts have helped me a lot even if I haven't fully understood them to begin with. Keep going back to them and reread them now and then and it all becomes clearer.
Also what I glean from it is something that Jim and Dave talked to me about when I posted my first videos up a year ago. That is keeping the hips and shoulders aligned throughout the whole delivery. I did what FBC is doing where the top half of his body races ahead of the bottom half. In that way you are only getting power from the top half of your body and bowling arm and nothing from the legs.
Drtrans posts have helped me a lot even if I haven't fully understood them to begin with. Keep going back to them and reread them now and then and it all becomes clearer.
doctortran
Member
Ok i've just edited the image. I've been recently using fluffyapp to upload images and I think it's causing a few problems.
However hopefully I've fixed the problem. The image is here in case you want to look at it in anotherwindow http://cl.ly/6B6W/Untitled-23.jpg
Hopefully the images will help your understanding. But to describe it a few other ways:
1) Like a car.
Your torso is the gears and drive shaft which connects to the main chassis. Initially they are completely still.
Your front shoulder and back hip are the engine of the car. Your engine spins forward and your torso comes along for the ride for a split second. But then the gears and drive shaft react to the engine movement and align itself with the force -- so your torso moves to align with your shoulder and hip. This then moves the wheel which is your bowling shoulder. The ball is the dude/dudette sitting in the car.
2) Like a windmill
Your torso is the main silo. You are structurally sound -- you are still. Your front shoulder and back hip move. Then your torso reacts to that movement to try and maintain balance (i.e. structural forces of the silo). This leads to an end -- i.e. movement of your front shoulder up and through.
It's bam bam bam.... one after the other. Front shoulder and hip first. Then torso to keep up. Then bowling shoulder.
However hopefully I've fixed the problem. The image is here in case you want to look at it in anotherwindow http://cl.ly/6B6W/Untitled-23.jpg
Hopefully the images will help your understanding. But to describe it a few other ways:
1) Like a car.
Your torso is the gears and drive shaft which connects to the main chassis. Initially they are completely still.
Your front shoulder and back hip are the engine of the car. Your engine spins forward and your torso comes along for the ride for a split second. But then the gears and drive shaft react to the engine movement and align itself with the force -- so your torso moves to align with your shoulder and hip. This then moves the wheel which is your bowling shoulder. The ball is the dude/dudette sitting in the car.
2) Like a windmill
Your torso is the main silo. You are structurally sound -- you are still. Your front shoulder and back hip move. Then your torso reacts to that movement to try and maintain balance (i.e. structural forces of the silo). This leads to an end -- i.e. movement of your front shoulder up and through.
It's bam bam bam.... one after the other. Front shoulder and hip first. Then torso to keep up. Then bowling shoulder.
doctortran
Member
I certainly see what you mean and I think it is right. But I think my advice is also relevant too for front on bowlers. I mean you can definitely see the same thing happening with fast bowlers like Curtley Ambrose.
1) Ambrose gather or leap into delivery stride
2) Shoulder Comes down. Hips already level and back hip gradually move upward (notice 1 his back hip is down). See how Ambrose maintains solid posture.
3) Back hip up front shoulder down. Trunk is trying to catch up with the alignment of the hips. Separation of trunk alignment and hip alignment creates velocity. Still good posture trying to remain upright.
4) Trunk completely aligned with hips. Square to the wicket and bowling shoulder up and about to release.
I think this shows that it's less about being side-on, but about rhythm, about how all those body parts go together to produce a well pitched delivery. Video (Curtley takes 7 for 1): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5G4pqb4nns
futureblackcap
Well-Known Member
I understand this advice a lot easier than the 1st attempt. I certainly will be referring back to all the advice you and others have given to me. I will try add these processes into my bowling action and post some more videos once (I think) I've corrected my technique.
Thanks once again
Thanks, that explains quite a lot. But, I do wonder about hte bracing of front knee that you talked about earlier - in this case with the steady torso, front shoulder(non bowling arm) going down from a height and the bowling arm and hips following - it all seems to work easily as long as the torso is rotating but not bouncing up or down.
But when you talk about bracing the front knee first and then straightening it to gain maximum height- it feels like a bounding up. I'm assuming that comes between 1 and 2. The trouble is, I'm unable to see how you do that without upsetting the rest of the rhythm. My front foot also lands quite naturally as fully extended so as to gain maximum height at the point of delivery. (I know a video will help, but our club has elections today and we can only start with the nets some time after next week.)
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I've uploaded some new vids of my pre-season practice sessions if anyone's interested in having a look.
This one where I'm working with the new flick out of the hand which I find a lot easier to get the 90 degree seam presentation and as you'll see it gets results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c30z93LzTLQ if you look at our wicket in the paddock you might notice that it's angled downwards from left to right, so with the leg breaks you have to spin against the slope!
This one from a new angle looking over the fence gives a better sense of the turn I manage to get when it comes out right and you'll see I'm beginning to integrate the bound back into my deliveries as my knee get slowly better. There's a couple of wrong uns at the end with the white balls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m6wBvuqntA
This one where I'm working with the new flick out of the hand which I find a lot easier to get the 90 degree seam presentation and as you'll see it gets results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c30z93LzTLQ if you look at our wicket in the paddock you might notice that it's angled downwards from left to right, so with the leg breaks you have to spin against the slope!
This one from a new angle looking over the fence gives a better sense of the turn I manage to get when it comes out right and you'll see I'm beginning to integrate the bound back into my deliveries as my knee get slowly better. There's a couple of wrong uns at the end with the white balls. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m6wBvuqntA
Dave nice bowling in the second video, but in the first, I know it is just the stand-start drill, but it might be a good idea to get that front hand up there, really strong (to ingrain that habit). (That is also the first step of the windmill that dr.tran talks about, where front shoulder goes up)
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I'll have a look - but, this is a wholly new approach to the release of the ball, so I am focusing on what is happening with my right hand more than anything else. The end result as a couple of people have already observed is that it's messing everything else up. In the short term I'm not that fussed and the aim is to work with this release and integrate it with the whole bowling action as a long term objective, I'm thinking months before it'll become smooth?
Yeah I had a look and you're right it's weak, maybe that'll be a starting point?
Yep, I think (at least in stand start drill), just get the hand up high over your head before you do anything else. Then even if you forget about it and concentrate on your release, the instinct kicks in and you will have a much stronger delivery than otherwise.
You can tell that by looking at your actual bowling - the left arm is a lot stronger in that action than it is in stand start drill.(tells us your instinct or habit is right) so just get it up there first even before your delivery stride
doctortran
Member
So what you are looking for is the full big picture. It occurs with the front knee hitting the floor and its relationship to the bowling arm coming up. When your knee just touches the ground your bowling arm should be around shoulder height and straight back. So between 1 and 2 the straightening of the knee happens to get through the crease -- or between 3 and 4 give or take for Curtley.
I think what you are talking about the bounding up and the upsetting of the rest of the rhythm comes from too early use of the bowling hand. I had a discussion with Chippyben last year about using the bowling arm later. It could also be able getting enough power through your back leg to get through the crease so you are not going up -- but through. This is something of using the centre of your back foot.
If you are having trouble then it is probably because of one of these two -- however it's probably difficult to know without looking at the action. Something of a lesson for me probably -- to post up images properly hehe.