Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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Chino#21 said:
Wow, isn't that quite unreasonable? In South Africa you could buy a decent bat for £80!

In my area there are about 5 clubs in proximity, and our league consists of 7-9 clubs. I have been to most of these clubs, every club has some outdoor cricket nets that can be used by anyone for free provided you don't vandalize them and you get permission to be on the field (clubs that have an open pitch often put fences around the whole field) There are also indoor facilities that are used for indoor cricket and they can be hired for R30 [÷17.59 for £] but you have to use a soft ball in those. Our club is building indoor nets at the moment and club members will be able to use these for free. There is one other indoor facility, but this is at a private school. They have outdoor pitch nets (to hire, don't know how much that would cost) and indoor nets designed for proper cricket with an optional bowling machine. 3 nets, green floors with high, fast bounce and lots of turn, and strong LED lights. I'm not up to date with the costs of these facilities but the last time I heard it was also about R30 an hour and you get to use the bowling machine as well.

Most schools have a set of 2/3 nets and they are free, but obviously you have to get the school's permission to practice in them, unless the school allows anyone to use them on Saturdays.

Seeing the cost of hiring a simple cricket net in England has really puzzled me. I'm not economically informed at all but why would it cost £80 to hire a cricket net? In SA you could hire huge spray lights that light up an entire cricket field at R300 per hour! (17£) The match balls would cost R250 for high quality balls (14£) drinks for both teams about R200 (11£) and that's if you're being amazingly generous. I don't think umpires ever demand payment from the club but let's say they want R100 (5£) Hiring the field costs R30 per hour and it's a 2-10 game. (13£) Medical kit - R50 (3£) So you could actually organize a day/night cricket game for 63£! (And I used the most expensive scenario possible)
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This is typical of the school net set up and would cost £80 and hour and that's with pretty ropey mats and you'd have to bring all your gear including stumps.
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A council run pitch in these parts is about £75 a day, that's for uncovered pitches, but they'd come with the clubhouse/shed. Food if you laid it on would be about £35 for a decent tea. Medical kit if you supplied your own would be about £15 I reckon.
Pitches look like this though...
The+Rec+Cricket+pitch+langdon+Hills+Essex+1.jpg
 
Chino#21 said:

Very entertaining video of Mushie, with some clueless commentary included! This is the first time I've seen such a long video of his bowling, he gets a lot of drift on his leg breaks (or top spinners according to the commentators) and that googly is quite deadly. It's easy to spot his googly in the video, it doesn't drift at all and you can see the direction of spin on the ball is a lot straighter, don't know why anyone would want to play him as an off spinner. It's a shame that there aren't any spinners of this class in international cricket at the moment. Sure, we've got a few spinners that can turn the ball and land it in the right areas, but that's not what makes spin bowling beautiful. It's the times that a spinner isn't taking wickets and he's experimenting with the pitch, probing for purchase and working the batsman over that are interesting to watch.
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Some unusual fields here, I've illustrated the one set as Mark Waugh comes in, I'll bung it on my blog and in here later.
 
What is meant by bowling with a loop? Does this only refer to the dip you get on the ball?

How is dip on the ball enhanced? More overspin? Any adjustments that can be made to my action to increase dip?
 
AngryRanga said:
What is meant by bowling with a loop? Does this only refer to the dip you get on the ball?

How is dip on the ball enhanced? More overspin? Any adjustments that can be made to my action to increase dip?
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Yeah, the more over-spin (Top-Spin) you put on the ball the more it will dip. If you think about Warne, he bowls at around 55mph which should easily be put out of the park especially considering the balls early trajectory. But then towards the end of its flight the ball suddenly drops out of the sky and lands 4 or 5 metres in front of the stumps! The reason is the top spin! The harder you spin it the faster you bowl it on a loopy trajectory above the eye-level and then get it to dip viciously short of the batsman. Have a look at this here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...&feature=iv&src_vid=t-3jnOIJg4k&v=23f1jvGUWJs
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah, the more over-spin (Top-Spin) you put on the ball the more it will dip. If you think about Warne, he bowls at around 55mph which should easily be put out of the park especially considering the balls early trajectory. But then towards the end of its flight the ball suddenly drops out of the sky and lands 4 or 5 metres in front of the stumps! The reason is the top spin! The harder you spin it the faster you bowl it on a loopy trajectory above the eye-level and then get it to dip viciously short of the batsman. Have a look at this here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...&feature=iv&src_vid=t-3jnOIJg4k&v=23f1jvGUWJs
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That's an interesting video. The bloke there mentioned at the end that a seam on the ball has a sideways force effect (essentially, the ball can move left/right with the aid of a seam). There's a certain chap I know who bluntly stated that a seam has no effect on sideways movement. Something I've always disagreed with. Question is, do you believe a learned professor of physics or a belligerent know-it-all? Tough one that.

I've never been in doubt that the seam position effects the amount of drift you can get. I bowl with a very clean seam and get nice drift into the right-handed batter when I rip the ball hard. When I use a ball with a very, very flat seam the drift is negligible.

Bringing it back to the original query about topspin/dip/loop. It is a game changer once you start getting that loop and even more so when you start getting a bit of drift too. Matthew Hayden spoke about this specifically. He said that he loves playing against spin. To him, it was easy runs. That is until he faces a spinner who rips it hard enough to get drift and dip. There's some nice footage of Bryce McGain bowling (something of a highlights package). In that footage, you see him bowl a ball to Michael Clarke, who is a superb player against spin. Clarke advances down the pitch but the ball drifts into his legs, causing him to play the wrong line and lob the ball up to the infield. In a nutshell, that is what legspin is all about. Warne will tell you that you are not going to beat a good batter off the pitch. You have to beat him in the air and that comes from drift and dip. Without that movement, a good batter will do exactly as Dave says and come down the crease and hit you out of the park.
 
Cleanprophet said:
That's an interesting video. The bloke there mentioned at the end that a seam on the ball has a sideways force effect (essentially, the ball can move left/right with the aid of a seam). There's a certain chap I know who bluntly stated that a seam has no effect on sideways movement. Something I've always disagreed with. Question is, do you believe a learned professor of physics or a belligerent know-it-all? Tough one that.
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Excusing your bestest belligerent friend, the professor is talking specifically about swing and not the magnus effect (drift) and that doesn't prove or disprove any magnifying effect that a perfect spinning seam position has on drift.

Do like the point about the 3 factors that make a good spinner: drift, dip and spin. Paul Strang states that those are the 3 things he looks for in from any potential spinner.
 
leftie600 said:
Excusing your bestest belligerent friend, the professor is talking specifically about swing and not the magnus effect (drift) and that doesn't prove or disprove any magnifying effect that a perfect spinning seam position has on drift.
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I think it's all abundantly clear. Spin creates a vacuum-like effect that changes the normal flight of a ball. Seam position also effects the normal flight of a ball. Therefore, a cleanly presented seam when bowling (whether bowling spin or seam) will aid movement through the air. Of course, you are then presented with other problems if the batter is watching the seam position and batting accordingly. You may well chose, in that instance, to scramble the seam. But fundamentally, if you want to move the ball in the air, bowl with a clean seam.

leftie600 said:
Do like the point about the 3 factors that make a good spinner: drift, dip and spin. Paul Strang states that those are the 3 things he looks for in from any potential spinner.
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Usually, any spinner who gets drift will also get spin (unless the pitch is taking no spin at all). For me, I would say drift and dip are the hallmarks of a quality spinner. Lots of people who know nothing about the game or bowling spin think that movement off the pitch is indicative of a good spin bowler. Of course, movement off the pitch is secondary and true hallmark of a good spin bowler is dip and drift. On the back of that, spin off the pitch becomes a weapon.
 
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Cleanprophet said:
That's an interesting video. The bloke there mentioned at the end that a seam on the ball has a sideways force effect (essentially, the ball can move left/right with the aid of a seam). There's a certain chap I know who bluntly stated that a seam has no effect on sideways movement. Something I've always disagreed with. Question is, do you believe a learned professor of physics or a belligerent know-it-all? Tough one that.

I've never been in doubt that the seam position effects the amount of drift you can get. I bowl with a very clean seam and get nice drift into the right-handed batter when I rip the ball hard. When I use a ball with a very, very flat seam the drift is negligible.

Bringing it back to the original query about topspin/dip/loop. It is a game changer once you start getting that loop and even more so when you start getting a bit of drift too. Matthew Hayden spoke about this specifically. He said that he loves playing against spin. To him, it was easy runs. That is until he faces a spinner who rips it hard enough to get drift and dip. There's some nice footage of Bryce McGain bowling (something of a highlights package). In that footage, you see him bowl a ball to Michael Clarke, who is a superb player against spin. Clarke advances down the pitch but the ball drifts into his legs, causing him to play the wrong line and lob the ball up to the infield. In a nutshell, that is what legspin is all about. Warne will tell you that you are not going to beat a good batter off the pitch. You have to beat him in the air and that comes from drift and dip. Without that movement, a good batter will do exactly as Dave says and come down the crease and hit you out of the park.
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I get the same amount of drift with any ball
 
Chino#21 said:
I do recall him saying this in some video. As far as most people are concerned, this is true, since a good batsman can just judge the line and length of the ball instantly, play for the correct amount of turn and await the next, so you need to upset their judgement.
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But you cannot play for the 'correct' amount of turn if you have no idea which way or how much it is going to, and that is precisely beating a batsman from the pitch.
 
you can beat some batsmen off the pitch, but the really good bats have a better read of it and to beat them, it's more likely going to be done through the air.
 
Spin Lizard said:
you can beat some batsmen off the pitch, but the really good bats have a better read of it and to beat them, it's more likely going to be done through the air.
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Surely it's not one or the other, its both. Neither in isolation are as good both? That's what makes good spin bowling - flight (Drift/swing/dip), turn off the wicket, (left/right/no turn/massive/minimal/stock) and speed (fast/slow/Medium), plus other factors - variation, accuracy and line of attack. All of these things contribute to causing the batsmen problems.
 
shahidpak said:
What about anil kumble he didnt have a lot of drift????
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Yeah the point I'm making is that he didn't rely solely on drift. Drift wasn't the only aspect of his bowling. I rarely get the ball to drift, but I still take wickets, I use variation of turn off the wicket, variation in the type of delivery... stock ball, one that turns more and one with more over-spin with more dip, spun hard, spun less, angle on the crease, slower, faster, loop, less loop.
Admittedly if I could get it to drift, and had some idea that it was/wasn't going to drift, it would probably make me into a far better bowler, but for the moment that still eludes me, so in the short term I have to use what I have. So getting back to what Warne might have/might not have said. It's pretty much a safe bet that he's said both at some point, they're all tools we should be using and developing.
 
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