Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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Did some work in the nets yesterday and it was going quite well:





If you pause both videos just as my front foot lands, you will see how I tend to lean back more when I run in. This then leads to me, sometimes, losing position for the legspin release. The second video shows the ball turn a decent amount, but I have lost some sidespin compared to the first video and that one step delivery. I certainly need to be as upright when running in as I am when doing the one-step drill. The issue is the jump and I think I just need to get a bit more forward in that jump. It looks like I tend to lean back a bit at the start of the jump and so the issue of me leaning back actually starts with the jump.
 
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Cleanprophet said:
Did some work in the nets yesterday and it was going quite well:





If you pause both videos just as my front foot lands, you will see how I tend to lean back more when I run in. This then leads to me, sometimes, losing position for the legspin release. The second video shows the ball turn a decent amount, but I have lost some sidespin compared to the first video and that one step delivery. I certainly need to be as upright when running in as I am when doing the one-step drill. The issue is the jump and I think I just need to get a bit more forward in that jump. It looks like I tend to lean back a bit at the start of the jump and so the issue of me leaning back actually starts with the jump.
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Videos are both in private mode clean.
 
Did some bowling today to a batsman and it didn't go very well. I was back to falling away and bowling topspinners and googlys. I think my delivery stride is too closed with that front foot moving too far from the line of my back foot. It used to be on the same line as the back foot and I think I've over corrected that. From one article I've read, the suggestion is that you should be able to draw a line from the toe of your back foot straight down the pitch to the heel of your front foot. I think the line of my front foot is about a yard wide of the line of my back foot, which is far too much. I found this following South African article that had loads of tips and training drills. Well worth a look:

https://cricket.co.za/category/15/Coach-Education/2400/Bowling-Leg-spin-bowling/
 
Cleanprophet said:
Did some bowling today to a batsman and it didn't go very well. I was back to falling away and bowling topspinners and googlys. I think my delivery stride is too closed with that front foot moving too far from the line of my back foot. It used to be on the same line as the back foot and I think I've over corrected that. From one article I've read, the suggestion is that you should be able to draw a line from the toe of your back foot straight down the pitch to the heel of your front foot. I think the line of my front foot is about a yard wide of the line of my back foot, which is far too much. I found this following South African article that had loads of tips and training drills. Well worth a look:

https://cricket.co.za/category/15/Coach-Education/2400/Bowling-Leg-spin-bowling/
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Yeah I've had a bowl today as well, Been working on getting up on the toes and bracing the front leg. Seems okay. Been luck to be able to bowl at tail-enders and had loads of success, not sure if I'd do so well against good batsmen in the same scenario. I might put a video up later, but some of the accuracy has gone - much fuller balls, so more practice needed I reckon, but generally looks promising still. I still feel as though this all represents forward progression, so happy for the moment with the loss of accuracy.

Where I normally practice (the paddock) they've removed all the fencing, but I've been looking today and realised that I might be able to cut a better wicket next year going the opposite way, but I'd be bowling up hill - quite a bit up hill, do your reckon that would be detrimental to my bowling?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Where I normally practice (the paddock) they've removed all the fencing, but I've been looking today and realised that I might be able to cut a better wicket next year going the opposite way, but I'd be bowling up hill - quite a bit up hill, do your reckon that would be detrimental to my bowling?
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Hmmm, not sure. You would imagine it would have some effect. It may well be terrible for me with the my balance issues at the moment. Obviously, the aim is to get your weight going over your front foot and forward towards the target. I'm tending to fall away to the left and so running up a hill would be tricky. Actually, a down hill slope might help me quite a bit. For other people, going up a hill might not be a problem as long as you compensate for that by leaning forward a bit more and as long as you still do bowl on a flat surface on a regular basis (so as to ensure you don't develop a balance issue that sees you get too far forward when you get on a normal surface).
 
Cleanprophet said:
Hmmm, not sure. You would imagine it would have some effect. It may well be terrible for me with the my balance issues at the moment. Obviously, the aim is to get your weight going over your front foot and forward towards the target. I'm tending to fall away to the left and so running up a hill would be tricky. Actually, a down hill slope might help me quite a bit. For other people, going up a hill might not be a problem as long as you compensate for that by leaning forward a bit more and as long as you still do bowl on a flat surface on a regular basis (so as to ensure you don't develop a balance issue that sees you get too far forward when you get on a normal surface).
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Cheers, I'll have to think about it as it is quite steep and I remember years ago considering doing it and trying and then thinking it did feel like I was bowling up a hill. Currently the strip is across the slope so with leggies it has to spin against the slope which must be beneficial.
 
Did some more work down at the nets earlier today. The foot position is a bit better now, but I think most of the problems I am having now are due to me releasing the ball too early. I suspect the falling away to the left and dropping of the left shoulder got me into a habit of releasing the ball at the point my bowling arm was vertical or slightly past the vertical. Ideally, the ball should be released about 30 degrees past the vertical otherwise you simply won't be able to drag your fingers across the ball.

I asked the question a few weeks back why I was able to turn it square when bowling over shorter distances. Of course, the answer is very obvious when you think about it. It is because you have to release the ball really late to get it to actually pitch (later than you would normally release it). I was struggling to get sideways movement on the ball today and I started to think about that release point. I went back to that tactic of bowling 10 or 12 balls off 12 yards, then another 10 or 12 off 15 yards and gradually working backwards to the full distance - keeping that feeling of releasing the ball at the ideal point. By the time I get to the full distance, the ball is turning square where 15mins earlier it was barely turning at all.

It's all linked to me not getting my weight moving forward fully. It is still tending to fall to the left and that makes it difficult for me to get to the release point. I just need to work on getting over that front foot and releasing it at that 60 degree angle.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Did some more work down at the nets earlier today. The foot position is a bit better now, but I think most of the problems I am having now are due to me releasing the ball too early. I suspect the falling away to the left and dropping of the left shoulder got me into a habit of releasing the ball at the point my bowling arm was vertical or slightly past the vertical. Ideally, the ball should be released about 30 degrees past the vertical otherwise you simply won't be able to drag your fingers across the ball.

I asked the question a few weeks back why I was able to turn it square when bowling over shorter distances. Of course, the answer is very obvious when you think about it. It is because you have to release the ball really late to get it to actually pitch (later than you would normally release it). I was struggling to get sideways movement on the ball today and I started to think about that release point. I went back to that tactic of bowling 10 or 12 balls off 12 yards, then another 10 or 12 off 15 yards and gradually working backwards to the full distance - keeping that feeling of releasing the ball at the ideal point. By the time I get to the full distance, the ball is turning square where 15mins earlier it was barely turning at all.

It's all linked to me not getting my weight moving forward fully. It is still tending to fall to the left and that makes it difficult for me to get to the release point. I just need to work on getting over that front foot and releasing it at that 60 degree angle.
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At least you're aware of what it is you're doing wrong. What is it that you're searching for the most with these tweaks is it specific as you're saying at the moment with the seam presentation? Is this the only aspect you're really looking to nail? It would be good to see you bowl 12 consecutive balls at a target off of your run-up. Having said that have you ascertained your run-up as I had a look at a few of your videos and noticed that some of them are short 3 or 4 steps and then one of them was Warne-esque - 8 steps building up to the explosive finale through the crease.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
At least you're aware of what it is you're doing wrong. What is it that you're searching for the most with these tweaks is it specific as you're saying at the moment with the seam presentation? Is this the only aspect you're really looking to nail? It would be good to see you bowl 12 consecutive balls at a target off of your run-up. Having said that have you ascertained your run-up as I had a look at a few of your videos and noticed that some of them are short 3 or 4 steps and then one of them was Warne-esque - 8 steps building up to the explosive finale through the crease.
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Well, the plan was to move to a longer run up (it was about 7 long strides from the stumps) but the longer run up just made me more likely to get the release wrong. That's sort of on the backburner until I get that release consistent. I've found that if I just turn up at the nets and start bowling, I am almost certain to release the ball too early in my action. If I do 5 mins work before hand, I get back to releasing it correctly. I always had that feeling of the ball sliding or slipping out of my hand. Of course, that was precisely what was happening. With that slight lean to the left I had, it caused the bowling arm the fall behind me a bit and then, as it raised, it moved towards the line of the stumps. When the ball was released early, it then followed on that line to the legside and got there full and after going about 5 foot in the air. That is pretty much how most balls will go if they are released too early.

The thing is, I almost always video my bowling from behind and it is tricky to pick up on the early release unless you are specifically looking for it. Side on is the best angle to see it properly. I spotted this fella's video on youtube (and left a comment on it) but you can see his release is exactly what I am talking about. Look at 1.35 to see his release. The palm of his hand is facing the camera and the ball's trajectory is way too high:



That's pretty much the sort of thing I've been doing a lot. You can't complete the wrist flick in time and so the ball slides out of your hand with no real downward pressure and no real spin. Just a horrible ball that can be smashed to all parts.

I did some run and jump approaches today and my position at the crease looked spot on in terms of balance and how upright I am. In terms of my position at the crease, I think the adjustment I made was an over-adjustment that caused balance issues. The base now has me not as open chested and I'm able to get a lot more upright. For me, I like to have my front foot exactly equidistant from my head position and my bowling hand position - right in the middle (if anything, I'd like to get my head nearer the line of my front foot, but I'm happy to have it as it is at the moment). From what I saw today, everything looked absolutely fine except for me releasing the ball too early. It could be down to my weight not getting forward quickly enough but I suspect it's just a bad habit I got into from bowling a lot with an action and fell away to the left quite sharply.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Well, the plan was to move to a longer run up (it was about 7 long strides from the stumps) but the longer run up just made me more likely to get the release wrong. That's sort of on the backburner until I get that release consistent. I've found that if I just turn up at the nets and start bowling, I am almost certain to release the ball too early in my action. If I do 5 mins work before hand, I get back to releasing it correctly. I always had that feeling of the ball sliding or slipping out of my hand. Of course, that was precisely what was happening. With that slight lean to the left I had, it caused the bowling arm the fall behind me a bit and then, as it raised, it moved towards the line of the stumps. When the ball was released early, it then followed on that line to the legside and got there full and after going about 5 foot in the air. That is pretty much how most balls will go if they are released too early.

The thing is, I almost always video my bowling from behind and it is tricky to pick up on the early release unless you are specifically looking for it. Side on is the best angle to see it properly. I spotted this fella's video on youtube (and left a comment on it) but you can see his release is exactly what I am talking about. Look at 1.35 to see his release. The palm of his hand is facing the camera and the ball's trajectory is way too high:



That's pretty much the sort of thing I've been doing a lot. You can't complete the wrist flick in time and so the ball slides out of your hand with no real downward pressure and no real spin. Just a horrible ball that can be smashed to all parts.

I did some run and jump approaches today and my position at the crease looked spot on in terms of balance and how upright I am. In terms of my position at the crease, I think the adjustment I made was an over-adjustment that caused balance issues. The base now has me not as open chested and I'm able to get a lot more upright. For me, I like to have my front foot exactly equidistant from my head position and my bowling hand position - right in the middle (if anything, I'd like to get my head nearer the line of my front foot, but I'm happy to have it as it is at the moment). From what I saw today, everything looked absolutely fine except for me releasing the ball too early. It could be down to my weight not getting forward quickly enough but I suspect it's just a bad habit I got into from bowling a lot with an action and fell away to the left quite sharply.
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Surely all that bloke needs to do is release a smidge later and put more spin on it. I have a sub variation whereby I spin the ball a lot harder and release it earlier, so that it initially takes a loopy flight path, but then it drops and dips more and lands shorter with top - spin. Flatter balls like the Flipper I release much later and do so intentionally, but then I also bowl a flipper where I toss it up high and slow, dropping it short so that it stalls. The thing is you can probably spot these coming a mile away as variations. Going on my recent epiphany with the consistent run-up, do you not feel that it may be beneficial to establish exactly what you're going to do with your run up and then work from there? I know that's a bit rich coming from someone that's faffed about with about 67 varieties of run-up whilst getting the releases right, but with hind-sight it does seem to make total sense to me now.
 
New video working with the braced leg and trying to get up on the toes. There's a loss of accuracy, a lot of balls were very full, many down the legside, but looking at the video my leg is swinging out and around, so need to work on bring it through.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Surely all that bloke needs to do is release a smidge later and put more spin on it. I have a sub variation whereby I spin the ball a lot harder and release it earlier, so that it initially takes a loopy flight path, but then it drops and dips more and lands shorter with top - spin. Flatter balls like the Flipper I release much later and do so intentionally, but then I also bowl a flipper where I toss it up high and slow, dropping it short so that it stalls. The thing is you can probably spot these coming a mile away as variations. Going on my recent epiphany with the consistent run-up, do you not feel that it may be beneficial to establish exactly what you're going to do with your run up and then work from there? I know that's a bit rich coming from someone that's faffed about with about 67 varieties of run-up whilst getting the releases right, but with hind-sight it does seem to make total sense to me now.
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Early-late releases are all part and parcel of variations. To bowl a topspinner/googly, you have to release it a bit earlier and, for many people, you have to drop your left shoulder and get the bowling arm more vertical (that said, this is only if you want to bowl a superb topspinner/googly - someone like Warne never made these adjustments and that's why his topspinner often still turned quite sharply as it wasn't a pure topspinner and it's also why he bowled so few googlys). It's best to have a lesser topspinner/googly that is harder to pick than one that is easier to pick. At club level, some of the better bats will pick it.

I was watching Imram Tahir bowling yesterday and you can see how much earlier he releases his googly and how much he drops his left shoulder. Of course, the price he pays is that his googly is harder to pick as he drops his left shoulder and has a vertical arm for his legspinner. It's not as easy to pick but it doesn't spin very much at all. It makes him a much lesser bowler in the longer form of the game. In limited overs, it works well.

The problem I've been having and that this bloke is having is that the early release is completely unintentional and is lacking any control.

As for the run up, you might want to do some work to get a run up that feels comfortable and provides good momentum. But, I wouldn't use it whilst working on the front leg and front arm things you are looking at. I'd keep it to standing starts or one step starts until you get them sorted and then move to a longer run up.
 
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Cleanprophet said:
Early-late releases are all part and parcel of variations. To bowl a topspinner/googly, you have to release it a bit earlier and, for many people, you have to drop your left shoulder and get the bowling arm more vertical (that said, this is only if you want to bowl a superb topspinner/googly - someone like Warne never made these adjustments and that's why his topspinner often still turned quite sharply as it wasn't a pure topspinner and it's also why he bowled so few googlys). It's best to have a lesser topspinner/googly that is harder to pick than one that is easier to pick. At club level, some of the better bats will pick it.

I was watching Imram Tahir bowling yesterday and you can see how much earlier he releases his googly and how much he drops his left shoulder. Of course, the price he pays is that his googly is harder to pick as he drops his left shoulder and has a vertical arm for his legspinner. It's not as easy to pick but it doesn't spin very much at all. It makes him a much lesser bowler in the longer form of the game. In limited overs, it works well.

The problem I've been having and that this bloke is having is that the early release is completely unintentional and is lacking any control.

As for the run up, you might want to do some work to get a run up that feels comfortable and provides good momentum. But, I wouldn't use it whilst working on the front leg and front arm things you are looking at. I'd keep it to standing starts or one step starts until you get them sorted and then move to a longer run up.
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I saw Tahir last night and was surprised how far he lurches forwards - looked messy to me.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
New video working with the braced leg and trying to get up on the toes. There's a loss of accuracy, a lot of balls were very full, many down the legside, but looking at the video my leg is swinging out and around, so need to work on bring it through.
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Some nice balls in there. You probably have a few balls being released a bit early, hence the full legside balls.

I wouldn't worry too much about the back leg. That usually takes care of itself. It is swinging out and around because your momentum isn't going fully over your front leg. As we've said before, your weight tends to move to the left a bit and so you lose some energy to the left and your back leg swings out as a natural counter-balance (if you fall to your left with your right leg in the air, it will swing out and that's what is happening). The best way to fix that is to fix your balance so that your follow through is 100% at the target.

The one thing that stands out is that you seem to slow down quite a lot as you hit the crease. You don't seem to accelerate into the delivery.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I saw Tahir last night and was surprised how far he lurches forwards - looked messy to me.
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There's a few legspinners around like that these days. I've mentioned Badree a few times before. He's another one. It's all down to T20 I reckon. It's easier to generate pace on the ball by pulling that left shoulder down and swing that right side around quickly, but you lose the position you need to impart sidespin. However, these bowlers have success with those actions and so they stick with them. It's far harder to bowl proper legspin and make it work in T20.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Some nice balls in there. You probably have a few balls being released a bit early, hence the full legside balls.

I wouldn't worry too much about the back leg. That usually takes care of itself. It is swinging out and around because your momentum isn't going fully over your front leg. As we've said before, your weight tends to move to the left a bit and so you lose some energy to the left and your back leg swings out as a natural counter-balance (if you fall to your left with your right leg in the air, it will swing out and that's what is happening). The best way to fix that is to fix your balance so that your follow through is 100% at the target.

The one thing that stands out is that you seem to slow down quite a lot as you hit the crease. You don't seem to accelerate into the delivery.
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Yeah it's all new, so that slowing down aspect will have to be worked on, hopefully fingers crossed the weather may clear for the weekend or at least be dry and I can have another go and try and address the aspects you've mentioned.
 
Some more work in the nets yesterday (I going there every other day at the moment after a period of going down almost every day). It's really coming together. I was focusing on getting that feeling of getting my head foward over the front leg and right into the delivery. This, in turn, helps me get that later release position because my torso is leaning much more forward. That then gets my shoulders further forward and my bowling arm gets to that 60 degree release angle much easier and with more energy.

It all has the added bonus of ensuring my weight is much more at the target and not leaning so much to the left. This is one little clip of me walking in and you can see it is the most balanced and correct position I have produced in months. There were some clips of me doing step starts and walking starts where the release is fine but I was still leaning away a bit more than is ideal. This is far more along the lines of what I am looking for:

 
Cleanprophet said:
Some more work in the nets yesterday (I going there every other day at the moment after a period of going down almost every day). It's really coming together. I was focusing on getting that feeling of getting my head foward over the front leg and right into the delivery. This, in turn, helps me get that later release position because my torso is leaning much more forward. That then gets my shoulders further forward and my bowling arm gets to that 60 degree release angle much easier and with more energy.

It all has the added bonus of ensuring my weight is much more at the target and not leaning so much to the left. This is one little clip of me walking in and you can see it is the most balanced and correct position I have produced in months. There were some clips of me doing step starts and walking starts where the release is fine but I was still leaning away a bit more than is ideal. This is far more along the lines of what I am looking for:

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Set private again CP.
 
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