Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[doc8176]

Wait side spin? I mean they also have backspin right? Shouldn’t that help with the grip, even though it’s a synthetic pitch? Also how do you differentiate between the orthodox backspin vs big leg break?Can you feel when the hand is rotated fully that it’s a orthodox backspin and not big leg break? I hope what I am saying makes sense

Edit: I feel like once you turn your hand around from normal delivery to impart backspin, it’s quite hard to grasp whether you have turned too much (orthodox backspin) vs not (big leg break). Or maybe it’s just me and it will come with practice?

So what I would imagine the big leg break is, is a legbreak bowed with almost entirely side spin. The idea being that if it grips it will turn a lot.

Putting backspin on it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because that will make it less likely to grip and just slide on. With the speed that spinners bowl at the backspin does nothing other than make the ball skid on, like with the flipper/slider.

You want to get the seam at as much of a 90 degree angle as possible.

I would wait to consult Dave though because my idea of big leg break might be different to what he’s referring to.

 

[zjitu]

So what I would imagine the big leg break is, is a legbreak bowed with almost entirely side spin. The idea being that if it grips it will turn a lot.

Putting backspin on it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because that will make it less likely to grip and just slide on. With the speed that spinners bowl at the backspin does nothing other than make the ball skid on, like with the flipper/slider.

You want to get the seam at as much of a 90 degree angle as possible.

I would wait to consult Dave though because my idea of big leg break might be different to what he’s referring to.

The full side spin most of the time skids (well I have seen it turning (80% of the time) where we practice but in the synthetic pitch we play in, it never turned!) in the artificial pitch.

The impression I got from the blog from SomeblokecalledDave. is that you put backspin with side spin for big leg break. Think of your top spinner palm direction, rotate it by 180 to get orthodox backspin, which means 90 is pure side spin while 45 is normal leg break. What happens when you rotate by let’s say 135 degree? You still have side spin like the normal leg break but you also put back spin in the mix. I hope that makes sense.
Hopefully SomeblokecalledDave. will clarify.

 

[doc8176]

The full side spin most of the time skids (well I have seen it turning (80% of the time) where we practice but in the synthetic pitch we play in, it never turned!) in the artificial pitch.

The impression I got from the blog from SomeblokecalledDave. is that you put backspin with side spin for big leg break. Think of your top spinner palm direction, rotate it by 180 to get orthodox backspin, which means 90 is pure side spin while 45 is normal leg break. What happens when you rotate by let’s say 135 degree? You still have side spin like the normal leg break but you also put back spin in the mix. I hope that makes sense.
Hopefully SomeblokecalledDave. will clarify.

Yeah ok I think I have tried that before actually and it tends to drift/swing a bit more and then nip away slightly.

I might actually have a video of it, although I tend to bowl it with more backspin, but a similar hand position to what you described.

 

[zjitu]

Yeah ok I think I have tried that before actually and it tends to drift/swing a bit more and then nip away slightly.

I might actually have a video of it, although I tend to bowl it with more backspin, but a similar hand position to what you described.

I think with right amount of side spin you can have more turn from this though. I have seen it at the short concrete pitch, it turns massively sometimes.

 

[Leggy88]

I think with right amount of side spin you can have more turn from this though. I have seen it at the short concrete pitch, it turns massively sometimes.

Only on really conducive and turning tracks would this happen. I guess because the backspin makes it 'hold up' in the pitch and grip more on turning tracks, thus having more time for it to translate into turn?

 

[zjitu]

Only on really conducive and turning tracks would this happen. I guess because the backspin makes it 'hold up' in the pitch and grip more on turning tracks, thus having more time for it to translate into turn?

Yes, that’s my impression of it. So synthetic will not work? Well it will never hurt to try I guess.

 

[Leggy88]

Yes, that’s my impression of it. So synthetic will not work? Well it will never hurt to try I guess.

Nah synthetic isn't really a turning track. Backspin goes straight on, and usually overspin is the best way to get turn, at least if you are bowling at a decent pace (which you are for sure).

 

[zjitu]

Nah synthetic isn't really a turning track. Backspin goes straight on, and usually overspin is the best way to get turn, at least if you are bowling at a decent pace (which you are for sure).

That’s so sad for me Don’t think I will have the chance to play in real turf here. All of them are synthetic pitch. I will just keep at it, who knows maybe someday…

 

[doc8176]

That’s so sad for me Don’t think I will have the chance to play in real turf here. All of them are synthetic pitch. I will just keep at it, who knows maybe someday…

To be fair you said you get almost 10 degrees of turn on your leg break

I don’t think you’ll need a whole lot more than that anyway.

 

[zjitu]

To be fair you said you get almost 10 degrees of turn on your leg break

I don’t think you’ll need a whole lot more than that anyway.

Too much greedy for turn

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

SomeblokecalledDave. Read your blogs, they are a great read. Learned about big leg break from there! Tried it out a couple of times yesterday, sometimes they don’t turn at all, while sometimes they do. Is synthetic pitch bad for big leg break? Or maybe I am not doing it correctly. I tried to do it at a smaller pitch in my backyard (concrete), sometimes they turn massively. Maybe I am not able to translate it to a bigger proper pitch? Any thoughts? TIA.

Cheers! Yeah, they don't always turn off the wicket and that's a massive asset - especially against better batsmen who watch the ball out of the hand. They're going to see the ball coming down spinning at 90 degrees and will almost certainly set for a ball that's going to turn and then it doesn't sometimes. We always have to remember for much of the time when we see the likes of Warne bowling, he's not bowling on flat roads like we have to in club cricket much of the time, but 4-5 day wickets with dirty great holes in - hence the massive turn he gets. I'm guessing your synthetic pitches are similar to the ones I play/practice on? In which case, you'll get some turn if you're spinning it hard. If you bowl slower you'll get more turn, but then you need to be far more accurate. If you were bowling stock balls consistently inviting the drive or a defensive block, the big leg-breaks going to be the ball that finds the edge potentially if you're bowling an attacking line.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Wait side spin? I mean they also have backspin right? Shouldn’t that help with the grip, even though it’s a synthetic pitch? Also how do you differentiate between the orthodox backspin vs big leg break?Can you feel when the hand is rotated fully that it’s a orthodox backspin and not big leg break? I hope what I am saying makes sense

Edit: I feel like once you turn your hand around from normal delivery to impart backspin, it’s quite hard to grasp whether you have turned too much (orthodox backspin) vs not (big leg break). Or maybe it’s just me and it will come with practice?

I think you've been reading my account of these deliveries. I work on the basis that so few of us can consistently release the ball so accurately we can get it to come out of the hand with the exact rotation we're looking for. Therefore, if like me, you can't release the ball with the 90 degree rotation, the answer might be to try and release with intended back-spin, that way you might get something akin to the 90 degrees or in my case I might strike lucky and get a hint of back-spin in which case it should increase the potential for it to go straight on? The only example I've ever seen of anyone bowling like this e.g. able release the ball with acute accuracy is Jeetan Patel with his finger-spin. He appears to be able to release the ball with almost pure side spin with the potential for it to skid on, but then he increases that potential by releasing the ball with pure side spinning rotation, but angled backwards so that it is guaranteed to skid on as it doesn't land on the seam.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Too much greedy for turn

Variation does for most if combined with accuracy.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

The full side spin most of the time skids (well I have seen it turning (80% of the time) where we practice but in the synthetic pitch we play in, it never turned!) in the artificial pitch.

The impression I got from the blog from SomeblokecalledDave. is that you put backspin with side spin for big leg break. Think of your top spinner palm direction, rotate it by 180 to get orthodox backspin, which means 90 is pure side spin while 45 is normal leg break. What happens when you rotate by let’s say 135 degree? You still have side spin like the normal leg break but you also put back spin in the mix. I hope that makes sense.
Hopefully SomeblokecalledDave. will clarify.

I'll knock up a picture of what I've observed and read...

 

[zjitu]

I think you've been reading my account of these deliveries. I work on the basis that so few of us can consistently release the ball so accurately we can get it to come out of the hand with the exact rotation we're looking for. Therefore, if like me, you can't release the ball with the 90 degree rotation, the answer might be to try and release with intended back-spin, that way you might get something akin to the 90 degrees or in my case I might strike lucky and get a hint of back-spin in which case it should increase the potential for it to go straight on? The only example I've ever seen of anyone bowling like this e.g. able release the ball with acute accuracy is Jeetan Patel with his finger-spin. He appears to be able to release the ball with almost pure side spin with the potential for it to skid on, but then he increases that potential by releasing the ball with pure side spinning rotation, but angled backwards so that it is guaranteed to skid on as it doesn't land on the seam.

So backspin doesn’t help with the turn? Because I have seen that in small concrete pitch, the ball with backspin actually turns a lot. I can feel it has backspin and it grubs the concrete turning a lot.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

I'll knock up a picture of what I've observed and read...

A ball like this is going to give you far more top-spin, but dependent on the wicket will also turn in varying degrees and is a dangerous ball because of the over-spin (Dip) combining with varying degrees of turn dependent on the surface and how well you're able to control the angle on release.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

A ball like this is going to give you far more top-spin, but dependent on the wicket will also turn in varying degrees and is a dangerous ball because of the over-spin (Dip) combining with varying degrees of turn dependent on the surface and how well you're able to control the angle on release.

View attachment 2020
Ball like this - again given the surface/speed and the amount of turn is an approximation of most peoples stock ball I would imagine? This'll give you good turn off the wicket combining dip. Get these going consistently and the change up to any of the others and you're definitely in the game!

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

This kind of seam presentation is now moving towards the 'Big Leg Break' this'll turn big consistently retaining dip if bowled with lots of spin and may skid on.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

This kind of seam presentation is now moving towards the 'Big Leg Break' this'll turn big consistently retaining dip if bowled with lots of spin and may skid on.
View attachment 2022

This is a pure side-spinner and this'll primarily skid on by my reckoning - unless you bowl into a minefield. Woolmer in his book 'The art and science of cricket' analyses this ball and says the physics (Magnus effect) says this ball wont drift and he argues that the ball of the century wasn't a pure side-spinner. As I recall when I last read his account of it I felt that it didn't stand up to scrutiny and if you look at all the people he collaborated with and consulted with in the books credits - there's no-one there that seems to have any real grounding in the art of wrist-spin so it's speculative? All of these theories are subject to whether you can release the ball consistently with such accurate seam presentation and I think dissecting these seam presentations has limited value - unless of course you have high-speed video capabilities?

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

So backspin doesn’t help with the turn? Because I have seen that in small concrete pitch, the ball with backspin actually turns a lot. I can feel it has backspin and it grubs the concrete turning a lot.

If you're able to release the ball fully confident of it actually back-spinning - I think that'll skid on more than turn, If you get something like a yoga mat and flick the ball out of your hand using the flipper click over a short distance with back spin onto a super grippy surface you'll see an exaggerated approximation of what happens.