Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[funk192]

I've looked at it again and again, experimenting myself with a cricket ball. I now think/believe that the index & middle fingers are playing a similar role to that of a fast bowlers grip. making the ball rotate towards the palm of the hand. The only difference is it's being forced to spin by clenching the index and middle fingers, running the tip of the fingers over the top of the ball. Now the rotation of the ball towards the batsmen only depends on hand position and what frame the ball comes out of the hand. This could have been anything from a type of half overspinning, to side spin, to half back spin delivery. I believe that from the momentum of the twisting wrist & angle of the wrist/hand and where the ball was released that it has come out as a sort of slight overspinning & mostly side spinning delivery, with the centre of rotation from the front of the ball(batsmen side) tilted a tiny bit down towards the ground(very slight flying saucer).

edit: another thing that can affect the angle of rotation is clenching one finger more than the other.

I need to put pictures up, or even demonstrate the wrist action on a recorded video because I am horrible at trying to explain things clearly.

 

[macca]

I cant see the rotation but if you reckon its overspin then it must be some sort of topspinner but to me it looks like the brad hogg flipper gone a bit wrong. the ball behaves with that down and in anti-loop of backspin and ganguly thinks it will be short gets on back foot but ball floats further than he estimates and lots faster, and breaks as well.

Hogg got the pace off his flipper partly with a faster arm movement but as well the way he could squeeze a cricket ball with his thumb and 2nd finger the ball shot out like squeezing a lemon pip. Usually a bit faster than that one even.

But once again i could be wrong cause my screen is not good at the moment and you guys might be able to see it better.

 

[funk192]

I cant see the rotation but if you reckon its overspin then it must be some sort of topspinner but to me it looks like the brad hogg flipper gone a bit wrong. the ball behaves with that down and in anti-loop of backspin and ganguly thinks it will be short gets on back foot but ball floats further than he estimates and lots faster, and breaks as well.

Hogg got the pace off his flipper partly with a faster arm movement but as well the way he could squeeze a cricket ball with his thumb and 2nd finger the ball shot out like squeezing a lemon pip. Usually a bit faster than that one even.

But once again i could be wrong cause my screen is not good at the moment and you guys might be able to see it better.

We will never know what exactly is happening unless we get the uploader to give us the original footage & if it was recorded off the telly properly in which is probably 720x576 interlaced format so we can see all of the 50 frames/fields and clearer ball rotation, but the that will never happen.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

High speed cameras are something I'm constantly looking into - I've got a lead it seems with a company that develp them in conjunction with Olympus. They've got the cameras sitting around doing nothing and are looking for applications that they can be put to in order that potential clients out there are aware of the applications they can be put to. My mate who works with Olympus and this other company is under the impression that they'd be interested in lending it out to me to see how I would put it to use, so that they can then use my example as a way of promoting the camera for sports analysis. It's a serious piece of kit 5000 FPS kind thing. Don't hold your breath though, as my mate is a busy bloke and whether he'll get onto the people involved or not remains to be seen.

 

[SLA]

I cant see the rotation but if you reckon its overspin then it must be some sort of topspinner but to me it looks like the brad hogg flipper gone a bit wrong. the ball behaves with that down and in anti-loop of backspin and ganguly thinks it will be short gets on back foot but ball floats further than he estimates and lots faster, and breaks as well.

Hogg got the pace off his flipper partly with a faster arm movement but as well the way he could squeeze a cricket ball with his thumb and 2nd finger the ball shot out like squeezing a lemon pip. Usually a bit faster than that one even.

But once again i could be wrong cause my screen is not good at the moment and you guys might be able to see it better.

Out of interest, do you have any actual footage of Hogg bowling a genuine flipper, with finger click and backspin and everything? Because I can't find anything on youtube - every delivery that is described as a flipper is actually a quick topspinner after closer inspection. The distinct lack of actual evidence makes me wonder whether his flipper actually ever existed at all...

 

[macca]

Out of interest, do you have any actual footage of Hogg bowling a genuine flipper, with finger click and backspin and everything? Because I can't find anything on youtube - every delivery that is described as a flipper is actually a quick topspinner after closer inspection. The distinct lack of actual evidence makes me wonder whether his flipper actually ever existed at all...

cant help you there mate. The best footage i have seen of hogg bowling a flipper was when he went on the channel 9 cricket show 'earl of twirl' segment. His flipper stood out on that but i suppose someone might slow that down and find topspin as well!

Maybe you have uncovered a huge con carried out by hogg. He fooled players like ponting and tendulkar, commentators like mark taylor and richie benaud and millions of viewers into believing he was snapping backspinning flippers when in reality he was somehow pumping out overspinners using his second finger. Certainly he had me fooled.

The irony is that the man who perfected the flipper, clarrie grimmett, preferred to bowl his flipper as an overspinner. With his thumb going up and second finger coming down imparting overspin. He occassionaly turned it upside down to bowl the backspinner but of the 5 flippers he found he could bowl he found the topspinning one the most productive. Problem is hogg doesn't get his hand in that posi in the clips.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Out of interest, do you have any actual footage of Hogg bowling a genuine flipper, with finger click and backspin and everything? Because I can't find anything on youtube - every delivery that is described as a flipper is actually a quick topspinner after closer inspection. The distinct lack of actual evidence makes me wonder whether his flipper actually ever existed at all...

Top observation! The art of deception - one of Warnes key weapons in his psychological domination of the game, was the fabrication of 'New deliveries', many of which (The Orthodox Back-Spinner being a great example) were the same ball but just called something new - "Zooter" (Orthodox Back-Spinner), "Slider" (Orthodox Back-Spinner) etc. So, as you've suggested it may be the case that he didn't have a slider and it was just a straight ball with hardly anything on it. It kind of makes sense in a way, but generally isn't it the case that most bowlers will only bowl their leg break and have perhaps two variations that they're comfortable with and thereafter you're then getting into the realms of being a jack of all trades master of none. The logical solution as with Warne much of the time, is then to bluff the opposition into believing you had a shed full of variations way in excess of normal human capabilities.

 

[highesteem1]

what is the conclusion of the discussion?? ... can anybody respond to my post ... is it possible to click with mf/ thumb(for flipper) while extending the wrist particularly delivering from back hand position???

 

[SLA]

what is the conclusion of the discussion?? ... can anybody respond to my post ... is it possible to click with mf/ thumb(for flipper) while extending the wrist particularly delivering from back hand position???

I've just tried it, and the only way I can get backspin between second finger and thumb with my wrist in roughly that position is if I tuck up my first finger out of the way (something Hogg is clearly not doing as you can see it on top of the ball just before he releases). Otherwise the ball has to be able to fit between the first two fingers without touching so that it can spin off the second without the first finger getting in the way and ruining the spin.

Now I have very big hands, and I'm nowhere near being able to do this. So I find it highly unlikely that Brad Hogg, or indeed anyone, would be able to bowl a flipped backspinner through the gap between his first and second fingers.

I think physically, backspin has to be spun off the foremost extended finger and topspin off the rearmost extended finger.In the clip Hogg has his first two fingers extended holding the ball, and the 3rd and 4th tucked out of the way. So biomechanically, he is either bowling a topspinner off the outside of his second finger or a backspinner off the inside of his first finger - and I think we can eliminate the second option from watching the clip - the first finger has clearly disappeared down the front of the ball.

 

[funk192]

I can bowl a kind of back spinner but only whilst clenching both the index and middle finger pulling back on the seam just like in the footage, not using the thumb. only for holding the ball. It's not pure backspin but it kind of shoots out the hand slipping out with mostly side spin and a little back spin, probably with around 110 degrees angle of rotation.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

what is the conclusion of the discussion?? ... can anybody respond to my post ... is it possible to click with mf/ thumb(for flipper) while extending the wrist particularly delivering from back hand position???

Yeah easy - it's the Wrong Wrong Un.

1. learn how to click your fingers with a ball in there as you do with all the Flippers.
2. Grip the ball ready for the Flipper click.
3. Bowl exactly as you would for the Wrong Un, but instead of releasing off the 3rd finger - click your fingers as in the Flipper click.

Now there is a caveat here....... Getting it to break towards off (Like a Leg Break) is the slightly harder aspect and more and more I'm beginning to be not bothered by the fact that it does or doesn't. What matters is the fact that the bowlers just seen what he perceives to be a Wrong Un, so he's waiting for an off break. My own experience of bowling the Wrong Wrong Un recently, is that it's exceptionally accurate, much faster than my Leg Break and very flat in comparison (flightwise). Sometimes it breaks to off, other times it breaks to leg, but more than anything it's different and it skids through low and it's a variation on what I normally do, therefore without it being 'textbook' perfect it still has validity and still potentially useful. My own experience with Flippers mirrors Grimmets, of all the Flippers I've tried in games, it's the top-spinning flipper that's got me wickets.

 

[macca]

I can bowl a kind of back spinner but only whilst clenching both the index and middle finger pulling back on the seam just like in the footage, not using the thumb. only for holding the ball. It's not pure backspin but it kind of shoots out the hand slipping out with mostly side spin and a little back spin, probably with around 110 degrees angle of rotation.

some guys have one finger (2nd finger) some guys 2,3 or all 4 on the ball as they grip their flipper but the true flipper is the thumb and 2nd finger finger snap. And that is what it appears to me hogg is trying to do in the vid, the thumb and the 2nd finger leave the ball in a single instance. Nothing inconsistent in what i can see anyway.

 

[macca]

If you can keep your 1st finger on your flipper grip for as long as possible it is a lot harder for batsman to pick

 

[funk192]

Just thought I'd try sharpen it up and see if a little more detail shows up, what do you guys think?

Out the side of the hand, side spinner?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Now it looks like a Chinamans Leg Break with a lot of over-spin

 

[funk192]

Now it looks like a Chinamans Leg Break with a lot of over-spin

That's probably the case for a bit of overspin with leg-break, since we can actually see see both index and middle(1st & 2nd) fingers in the cameras view as the ball has left the hand, and not index finger hiding behind the middle finger if it was then the rotation of the ball would be pure side spin, if you where to beleive that both index and middle fingers are giving the spin(fast bowlers tip of the fingers method)

 

[shrek]

No I think the middle finger is rolling down the front of the ball. It's a bit blurry I admit. I think the finger action (and the topspin on the ball) is easier to see on the first video where he bowls it a few times.

Its honestly not a particularly unusual delivery this - I can bowl it myself.

I just made an animated gif, and I think it's finally clearer as to what the 1st and 2nd fingers are doing.

If you watch closely you see the ball kind of get squeezed through the 1st and 2nd fingers or given a bit of side spin dragging the 1st and 2nd fingers. Both 1st and 2nd fingers do the same thing. Well that's what it looks like to me know.

edit: I have retraced the 2 frames to what I now beleive the fingers are doing to as best as I can see in the above animated gif.

Here are the new traces below:

The middle finger has some motion blur which I have coloured in pink.

Very interesting guys. I think this is a "flipper" or if you guys have read the Twirlymen, this is what he describes as the "Rajan's mystery ball" Even if you haven't read the entire book, just look at description of the mystery delivery.

It is basically a flipper that is bowled on the seam. While warne, benaud etc squeeze the ball out between the thumb and forefinger while the palm faces the sky ( to get the saucer kind of rotation), this one does it with palm in the top spin position.

Because of such a position, there is backspin on the ball, but along the seam, so this comes out like a swing bowler's delivery but with a lot more backspin (I'm sure chippyben would agree that swing bowlers put a bit of backspin when they bowl by rolling it off their fingers).

As a result, two things happen, obviously backspin causes it to float further causing batsmen to misread the length (after all they'd be used to dipping trajectory because of the overspin on the regular deliveries), and then it rushes on like a regular medium pacer's delivery. Secondly, if it lands the seam, it need not stay low like a traditional flipper would (which lands on the leather), at the same time, just as a seamer would, you can point the seam in the direction in which you would want the ball to go. Therefore, it is not a wrong-wrongun (in that you will have twist the wrist around a lot more than what hogg is doing here)

This ties in well with our observation that flippers usually swing- they swing because we are replicating what swing bowlers would do, at a slower pace (offset by more backspin)

 

[macca]

Very interesting guys. I think this is a "flipper" or if you guys have read the Twirlymen, this is what he describes as the "Rajan's mystery ball" Even if you haven't read the entire book, just look at description of the mystery delivery.

It is basically a flipper that is bowled on the seam. While warne, benaud etc squeeze the ball out between the thumb and forefinger while the palm faces the sky ( to get the saucer kind of rotation), this one does it with palm in the top spin position.

Because of such a position, there is backspin on the ball, but along the seam, so this comes out like a swing bowler's delivery but with a lot more backspin (I'm sure chippyben would agree that swing bowlers put a bit of backspin when they bowl by rolling it off their fingers).

As a result, two things happen, obviously backspin causes it to float further causing batsmen to misread the length (after all they'd be used to dipping trajectory because of the overspin on the regular deliveries), and then it rushes on like a regular medium pacer's delivery. Secondly, if it lands the seam, it need not stay low like a traditional flipper would (which lands on the leather), at the same time, just as a seamer would, you can point the seam in the direction in which you would want the ball to go. Therefore, it is not a wrong-wrongun (in that you will have twist the wrist around a lot more than what hogg is doing here)

This ties in well with our observation that flippers usually swing- they swing because we are replicating what swing bowlers would do, at a slower pace (offset by more backspin)

I agree with you shrek, its a flipper or attempted flipper. I can see the effects of backspin if not the actual rotation.

That sharpened image shows the actual finger snap with thumb and second finger with 1st finger helping the second finger do its job. You can see the second finger run down the back of the ball and thumb extends at the same time.
To overspin a flipper you need to have your hand opposite to how hogg presents here. then you have to have your thumb facing you and the second finger on the front of the ball. The back of the hand faces mid wicket. But this ball is hard for a legspinner to disguise as a legbreak compared to the backspinning flipper.

 

[chippyben]

Some good discussion there on Hogg's mystery ball. The more I watch it the more confused I get. Flippers really aren't my strong point.
We were rained off today. Dissappointing as we were to play a team that has been struggling so it could have been a good confidence booster. I was to be captain today too as our regular captain was away. So Ive missed out on bowling 8 overs of leg spin with the new ball too!!! Actually I was planning on bringing myself on 3rd change with a fairly conventional field.
Ive been picked to play in our districts rep team so at least I get to play a match tomorrow. I won't get a bowl at leg spin in that though.
My action is working well at the moment. I have stopped worrying about getting side on and just doing what is natural and I think that has helped a lot as Ive just been concentrating on rhythm.
The other thing that Dave mentioned on here a while ago is arm speed. When my arm is going at a good speed my wrist just snaps naturally and I put a lot of revs on the ball. When I try and slow up too much I tense up and the wrist just doesnt seem to "snap". The thing I have worked out is that I dont have to necessarily bowl faster to get the arm speed up. I just have to keep my leading arm strong and make sure my arm goes around at the full extent of the circle, its a bit hard to explain but I know what I mean??

 

[macca]

Some good discussion there on Hogg's mystery ball. The more I watch it the more confused I get. Flippers really aren't my strong point.
We were rained off today. Dissappointing as we were to play a team that has been struggling so it could have been a good confidence booster. I was to be captain today too as our regular captain was away. So Ive missed out on bowling 8 overs of leg spin with the new ball too!!! Actually I was planning on bringing myself on 3rd change with a fairly conventional field.
Ive been picked to play in our districts rep team so at least I get to play a match tomorrow. I won't get a bowl at leg spin in that though.
My action is working well at the moment. I have stopped worrying about getting side on and just doing what is natural and I think that has helped a lot as Ive just been concentrating on rhythm.
The other thing that Dave mentioned on here a while ago is arm speed. When my arm is going at a good speed my wrist just snaps naturally and I put a lot of revs on the ball. When I try and slow up too much I tense up and the wrist just doesnt seem to "snap". The thing I have worked out is that I dont have to necessarily bowl faster to get the arm speed up. I just have to keep my leading arm strong and make sure my arm goes around at the full extent of the circle, its a bit hard to explain but I know what I mean??

I know exactly what you mean. Thats what i tell jimmy. its not so much arm speed as arm strength

Too bad about the rain old boy, my young bloke got a game in before the weather hits us and had their first win of the season. Massive win so he didn't even need to bowl.

Great you got rep selection. Good luck tomorrow