Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[gundalf7]

yeah if only we could all get helpful pitches every match if would be so easy

nice to see you've had a great start to the season as well Darth. Unlucky 10anover there is always next match, as a leggie sometimes you'll get smashed sometimes you'll take a hatful its all part of the game.

legspinbowler the action looks nice and solid, what are you looking to improve on through the off season?

regards averages i'd say anything under 30 is more than useful, with closer to 20 the standard your likely to see for good bowlers. Regards economy i'd say 5 an over plus your going to have to be taking wickets quite regularly, with 4 an over being more standard and anything less than 3 your bowling exceptionally. Your probably looking at a strike rate of 30 or better at club level for good bowlers, but of course all of these are subjective and the higher the standard you play the higher the batting and bowling averages and runs per over will be.

 

[Darth Spin]

Thanks Gundalf, I was thrilled to get my first wicket bowling spin as I didn't want it to become a monkey on my back. I'm hoping it will calm me down for the next match as I was nervous.

 

[legspinbowler]

Lots to like there, lsb. Your approach is faster than mine and I really like how you twist up high on the front foot, something I think I struggle with. Follow through looks good, too. The only thing I picked up on was the right foot when you land. It's pointing slightly towards square leg-ish. Consequently your body does not look fully side on. This could be related to your rapid approach.

A view from a novice...

Martin

That's a fair point Martin, thanks. What helped me at the start to get tall is to start low in my action and thinking of reaching up during release.

yeah if only we could all get helpful pitches every match if would be so easy

legspinbowler the action looks nice and solid, what are you looking to improve on through the off season?

Looking to bowl quicker and turning it more as always

 

[leftie600]

I know it's been a while since I've been on here!

Good to hear you guys enjoying a successful start to the season. It's off season here down under and I miss cricket already

But it gives me a chance to see how I'm progressing. I recorded myself to see if I need any technical improvements. I would love to hear your feedback.

As someone who is also in the offseason I feel your pain.

I really like your action, it's been a while since I've seen someone bowl with the energy you get into your follow through without the usual hop that bowlers have to do. My only question is due to your bowling arm comes through at the vertical as opposed to 11 or 10 o'clock, do you find it easy to bowl a decent googly and topspinner? If so then you're fine (Mushtaq Ahmed is the perfect example) but if you're more a big legbreak bowler then that arm will need to come down a little bit and you'll need to get more side on as Darth Spin has suggested.

Below is a longwinded bit but the gist is that it's important to stay focussed on what kind of leggie you are before you take on any advice, despite what some captains may think we're not all the same!

This 'reach up' thing that Shane Warne said, it needs context. Warne had a model action in that he got perfectly side on and had the levers and strength to get the legbreak out perfectly...but it had it's own problems. Warne's action and the strength behind it put stress on his shoulder and back, to alleviate the stress he would unconsciously drop his arm, especially when he was tired. A low arm action has its own pros and cons but Warne found that it nullified some of his strengths hence his thought of 'reaching up' to make sure the arm doesn't drop too low. For someone like Mushtaq Ahmed or Anil Kumble this was never a problem as their arms were always pretty much at the vertical.

 

[SLA]

yeah if only we could all get helpful pitches every match if would be so easy

nice to see you've had a great start to the season as well Darth. Unlucky 10anover there is always next match, as a leggie sometimes you'll get smashed sometimes you'll take a hatful its all part of the game.

legspinbowler the action looks nice and solid, what are you looking to improve on through the off season?

regards averages i'd say anything under 30 is more than useful, with closer to 20 the standard your likely to see for good bowlers. Regards economy i'd say 5 an over plus your going to have to be taking wickets quite regularly, with 4 an over being more standard and anything less than 3 your bowling exceptionally. Your probably looking at a strike rate of 30 or better at club level for good bowlers, but of course all of these are subjective and the higher the standard you play the higher the batting and bowling averages and runs per over will be.

Yeah I'd normally be aiming for something like 10 overs, 3-40 as a decent days work. Of course, it helps if you fit in with what the other bowlers are doing; if everyone is taking wickets, then 4-50 is great as you will bowl the team out, whereas if everyone else is bowling 10 overs 1-30 then the wickets are comparatively less relevant your 50 runs looks rather profligate by comparison. That's happened to me before.

Whatever the standard, the sign of a good allrounder is to keep your batting average higher than your bowling average!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

As someone who is also in the offseason I feel your pain.

I really like your action, it's been a while since I've seen someone bowl with the energy you get into your follow through without the usual hop that bowlers have to do. My only question is due to your bowling arm comes through at the vertical as opposed to 11 or 10 o'clock, do you find it easy to bowl a decent googly and topspinner? If so then you're fine (Mushtaq Ahmed is the perfect example) but if you're more a big legbreak bowler then that arm will need to come down a little bit and you'll need to get more side on as Darth Spin has suggested.

Below is a longwinded bit but the gist is that it's important to stay focussed on what kind of leggie you are before you take on any advice, despite what some captains may think we're not all the same!

This 'reach up' thing that Shane Warne said, it needs context. Warne had a model action in that he got perfectly side on and had the levers and strength to get the legbreak out perfectly...but it had it's own problems. Warne's action and the strength behind it put stress on his shoulder and back, to alleviate the stress he would unconsciously drop his arm, especially when he was tired. A low arm action has its own pros and cons but Warne found that it nullified some of his strengths hence his thought of 'reaching up' to make sure the arm doesn't drop too low. For someone like Mushtaq Ahmed or Anil Kumble this was never a problem as their arms were always pretty much at the vertical.

Good to see you on here Leftie.

 

[legspinbowler]

As someone who is also in the offseason I feel your pain.

I really like your action, it's been a while since I've seen someone bowl with the energy you get into your follow through without the usual hop that bowlers have to do. My only question is due to your bowling arm comes through at the vertical as opposed to 11 or 10 o'clock, do you find it easy to bowl a decent googly and topspinner? If so then you're fine (Mushtaq Ahmed is the perfect example) but if you're more a big legbreak bowler then that arm will need to come down a little bit and you'll need to get more side on as Darth Spin has suggested.

Below is a longwinded bit but the gist is that it's important to stay focussed on what kind of leggie you are before you take on any advice, despite what some captains may think we're not all the same!

This 'reach up' thing that Shane Warne said, it needs context. Warne had a model action in that he got perfectly side on and had the levers and strength to get the legbreak out perfectly...but it had it's own problems. Warne's action and the strength behind it put stress on his shoulder and back, to alleviate the stress he would unconsciously drop his arm, especially when he was tired. A low arm action has its own pros and cons but Warne found that it nullified some of his strengths hence his thought of 'reaching up' to make sure the arm doesn't drop too low. For someone like Mushtaq Ahmed or Anil Kumble this was never a problem as their arms were always pretty much at the vertical.

Yeah definitely a good point, thanks for your comments. The height of your bowling arm is an underrated thing. I'm mainly focusing on my leg breaks with the occasional toppies so I probably have to aim for 10-11 o clock.

But for some, it's more relevant if they reach up with their feet. Whatever method, as long as you're deceiving them in the air is what matters

 

[SLA]

Yeah definitely a good point, thanks for your comments. The height of your bowling arm is an underrated thing. I'm mainly focusing on my leg breaks with the occasional toppies so I probably have to aim for 10-11 o clock.

But for some, it's more relevant if they reach up with their feet. Whatever method, as long as you're deceiving them in the air is what matters

I would suggest its better to fit your gameplan around your natural action, rather than try to change your action to fit your gameplan. There's more than one way to bowl legspin.

 

[legspinbowler]

I would suggest its better to fit your gameplan around your natural action, rather than try to change your action to fit your gameplan. There's more than one way to bowl legspin.

For sure, I think I've been a decent turner of the ball and my arm has got higher and higher as I try to sort my alignment. Sometimes you gotta unlearn some things and go back to your natural action.

 

[10AnOver]

Oh gutted! Ah well, pick yourself up and have another go next week, don't let it get to you, your Gundalf day is only round the corner somewhere! I like your name 10anover and was thinking about what we all consider a fair average. My first game I was going for a run-a- ball, which if I wasn't getting wickets I'd not be happy with. 5 an over seems reasonable, when I'm playing and I see we're batting scoring 5 or conceding 5 an over I always think, yeah that's par for club cricket and it'll mean one way or another it's a total to chase or defend that is competitive. But if I'm getting wickets, then being more expensive is a pay-off that I'm okay with usually. What kind of a strike rate do you reckon is acceptable for a club spinner in a 50 over game, or is that simplifying it too much?

I always feel like I'm happy with giving away a few more runs the more wickets I take. I normally play in 40 over games, so if I bowl out my eight overs, I'd be happy with giving away 50 if I took three or four wickets, but if I only get one wicket, or no wickets, I'd feel like I hadn't contributed it I was going at a run a ball. So, I reckon the best economy rate I can hope for is about 4.5 an over. Generally for me though, economy and wickets come together, so I'll either be 3-40 or 0-60 off eight (not that I'd get my full eight if I was that profligate)

I also feel like when I bowl short spells I'm less worried if I've given away runs, as like most leg-spinners I find it quite hard getting into a spell. In terms of average, I'd love one between 20 and 25, but since I give away a fair few runs, it's still at 35 at the moment.

 

[SLA]

I always feel like I'm happy with giving away a few more runs the more wickets I take. I normally play in 40 over games, so if I bowl out my eight overs, I'd be happy with giving away 50 if I took three or four wickets, but if I only get one wicket, or no wickets, I'd feel like I hadn't contributed it I was going at a run a ball. So, I reckon the best economy rate I can hope for is about 4.5 an over. Generally for me though, economy and wickets come together, so I'll either be 3-40 or 0-60 off eight (not that I'd get my full eight if I was that profligate)

I also feel like when I bowl short spells I'm less worried if I've given away runs, as like most leg-spinners I find it quite hard getting into a spell. In terms of average, I'd love one between 20 and 25, but since I give away a fair few runs, it's still at 35 at the moment.

What kind of fields do you set 10anover?

I always think of the famous Warne quote about how setting a defensive field gives you the freedom to bowl aggressively.

 

[10AnOver]

I generally set a fairly standard leg-spinners field, the only things that I really insist on is having long off back and mid on up, and that I don't generally want a slip until I've got into my rhythm. Other than that, I generally like to keep men in the circle, other than fine leg back, but my captain often wants a few more boundary riders than that, so often I'll have a deep midwicket as well. I don't mind going for boundaries, I hate singles though, loses me the chance to keep pressure on the batsman.

I need to think about my field a bit more though, the other day I just got caught up in marking out my run up properly and bowling practice balls, and my captain set it for me, and I didn't get any input. It was a decent field though, so all fine in the end. Changing the field during a spell is also something I often neglect, I focus too much on what I'm bowling next and how to outwit the batsman.

 

[SLA]

I generally set a fairly standard leg-spinners field, the only things that I really insist on is having long off back and mid on up, and that I don't generally want a slip until I've got into my rhythm. Other than that, I generally like to keep men in the circle, other than fine leg back, but my captain often wants a few more boundary riders than that, so often I'll have a deep midwicket as well. I don't mind going for boundaries, I hate singles though, loses me the chance to keep pressure on the batsman.

I need to think about my field a bit more though, the other day I just got caught up in marking out my run up properly and bowling practice balls, and my captain set it for me, and I didn't get any input. It was a decent field though, so all fine in the end. Changing the field during a spell is also something I often neglect, I focus too much on what I'm bowling next and how to outwit the batsman.

Fine leg back? How fast do you bowl? I normally have a 45 and a slip and no-one else behind square and I bowl quite quick for a spinner.

Only dot balls really build pressure, boundaries relieve it even quicker than singles. If you want to set up a specific batsman, I suggest you do it in sets of three balls. Anything more and you will be setting him up all day without ever getting to the punchline.

 

[10AnOver]

Fine leg back? How fast do you bowl? I normally have a 45 and a slip and no-one else behind square and I bowl quite quick for a spinner.

Only dot balls really build pressure, boundaries relieve it even quicker than singles. If you want to set up a specific batsman, I suggest you do it in sets of three balls. Anything more and you will be setting him up all day without ever getting to the punchline.

I said fine leg, but that might be disingenuous, it's much more of a long leg/deep backward square. It's there for my frequent leg side drag downs, which generally get dispatched in that sort of direction.

Also, I agree with you about setting up batsmen, it's not one of my stronger points, I tend to bowl very much on instinct, which can work, but not always. I'm not bothered about fours or sixes off good balls, because I know if I keep bowling good balls, they will hole out. Obviously if I bowl tripe I get a bit more annoyed about going for boundaries!

 

[Darth Spin]

My t20 called off because of weather again. Haven't had the call for the weekend. Another t20 due on Tuesday.

 

[leftie600]

I don't mind going for boundaries, I hate singles though, loses me the chance to keep pressure on the batsman.

I've never understood that mentality, of course you do what you can to stop any runs while trying to take wickets but in T20 and sometimes 40/50 over games singles are a win for the bowler and in their own way to target a batsman.

Let's say a batsman is playing legbreaks on middle and off straight down the ground for an easy single, if you are able to mix up the flight or execute a good topspinner all of a sudden that easy punch for a single becomes a caught and bowled chance. Likewise if you have a deep extra cover and a regulation cover you can mix up your pace and flight and now batsmen are chipping to cover rather than getting the easy 1 or 2 they thought they'd get.

 

[SLA]

I've never understood that mentality, of course you do what you can to stop any runs while trying to take wickets but in T20 and sometimes 40/50 over games singles are a win for the bowler and in their own way to target a batsman.

Let's say a batsman is playing legbreaks on middle and off straight down the ground for an easy single, if you are able to mix up the flight or execute a good topspinner all of a sudden that easy punch for a single becomes a caught and bowled chance. Likewise if you have a deep extra cover and a regulation cover you can mix up your pace and flight and now batsmen are chipping to cover rather than getting the easy 1 or 2 they thought they'd get.

I always think that if I can beat the bat twice an over, then even if the rest go for singles that's only 4 off the over which is a good result. Whereas if a couple of them go for boundaries then that is now 8-10 off the over and if it goes on too long the skipper is going to start grimmacing at the scoreboard and will probably say something about "have a rest mate" any moment now.

My experience is that I will bowl at least one unplayable ball and at least one rank piece of rubbish every over that will be carted to the legside. If I can keep the rank piece of rubbish to just a single then I buy myself time for the good balls to get wickets.

It depends how you get your wickets, I tend to get mine bowled or caught behind, which means that most of my fielders are there just for saving runs. At the other extreme, I also play with a leggie who almost never bowls anyone out but is quite accurate, so we keep things tight and try and tempt the drive, and have a gully and a short extra and wait for the batsman to just slightly misjudge a shot.

 

[leftie600]

I always think that if I can beat the bat twice an over, then even if the rest go for singles that's only 4 off the over which is a good result. Whereas if a couple of them go for boundaries then that is now 8-10 off the over and if it goes on too long the skipper is going to start grimmacing at the scoreboard and will probably say something about "have a rest mate" any moment now.

My experience is that I will bowl at least one unplayable ball and at least one rank piece of rubbish every over that will be carted to the legside. If I can keep the rank piece of rubbish to just a single then I buy myself time for the good balls to get wickets.

It depends how you get your wickets, I tend to get mine bowled or caught behind, which means that most of my fielders are there just for saving runs. At the other extreme, I also play with a leggie who almost never bowls anyone out but is quite accurate, so we keep things tight and try and tempt the drive, and have a gully and a short extra and wait for the batsman to just slightly misjudge a shot.

I agree with the sentiment and I'm the same in that my wickets nowadays are pretty much bowled, LBW or caught behind the wicket. The leggie that bowls at the other end from me is different in that flight variation is his main weapon and the amount of times he gets players LBW or caught in the arc from midwicket to cover on flat wickets is staggering. I've been drilling into him that everything and anything the batsman does is an angle for him to get a wicket and that's the attitude you need to take everywhere you bowl.

My post though was addressing the depression of going for singles, they're part of the game and they aren't going away (not saying that you have to be happy about it) so in the meantime you may as well use them as a way to set a trap.

 

[Darth Spin]

No match for me this weekend but I've put a solid 5 hours in at the net over yesterday and today. I tweaked my action a bit so that the arm comes over at a lower angle for the leg break, this gives better seam angle and turn. The line is slightly harder to control but not too much. I think soon I will be able to develop a big leg break and small leg break. This started happening today.

I was also using my elbow more in the delivery which gave better flight and I believe slightly more turn and more bounce. Helped with everything really, a much better shape on the stock delivery.

And finally I started bowling a flipper after practising the click release drill for a while now. The seam came out like this // and they were breaking to the leg side but keeping low and were fast/skiddy. They were all over the place at first but then I got a few to pitch in line. I could not get the seam out straight but it was still interesting.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I had a match on Saturday, again with my older son Ben. It was supposed to be an inter-club match between our 3rds and 4ths, but hardly anyone turned up, so we bodged a game where we all fielded and bowled for the other side. It was good in the end with a good 5 hours or so of play and a chance to have a bowl against some half decent batsmen for both me and my son and his mate Kieran. I've started to record our bowling figures in a mini-comp between us three and so far it looks like this...

Ben - 21-4-53-4 Economy is 2.52 and his strike rate is a wicket every 31.5 balls
Kieran 14-3-57-0 Economy is 4.07 no strike rate as yet
Me 7.2-1-35-4 Economy is 4.50 and my strike rate is a wicket every 11 balls

The full details are on my blog here along with pictures. http://www.mpafirsteleven.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/basildon-pitsea-cc-3rd-xi-4th-xi-inter.html

I also had a bowl to a leftie over in the paddock this afternoon who, historically usually takes my bowling apart, but the boot was on the other foot today and I rang rings round him and I reckon all the work I've been putting in over the last 2 years trying to get my bowling action more dynamic is at last coming to fruition! I also had a little go at the Wrong Wrong Un today as a flipper variation and that came out surprisingly well with no prior practice, so is something I might look at, as all my recent forays with the conventional back-spinning vertical seamed flipper have been poor.

Martin, lets hope you get a bowl this coming weekend and get a look at your bowling under pressure and in a real situation.