Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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Kalgrm said:
G'day all,

I've been following this thread and its precursors for a couple of seasons now, not because I bowl leg spin, but because my 13 year old son does. I've been applying the collective wisdom I've gleaned from you lot as I coach him outside the team enviroment, and it has worked a treat.

Now he has progressed to the stage where he is in the district squad for pre-season training and is finally getting some coaching from people who play cricket AND know something about spin bowling (I think ...). (I personally don't play and know very little, but you guys know a lot! :) )

My questions relate to what they have told him to do with his feet on the delivery stride. At the moment, he steps across the crease with his front foot, so that his left foot is about 8 to 10" closer to the centre of the pitch than his right foot (RH bowler). He uses this stance to induce body twist during delivery. The coaches have instructed him to keep his feet parallel to the centre line of the pitch on the delivery stride, but when he does this, he claims to lose spin. (During an exercise at the last session, they had him bowl from a standing position - sans run up - and he still achieved good spin and accuracy, so I don't believe him completely when he says he can't spin it with a straightened up delivery stride.)

The reasoning is a straight delivery stride is more accurate that a diagonal one.

Firstly, are they right to tell him to straighten up his delivery stride, even though he has got his action working for him now?

Secondly, if their instructions are correct, how can he regain his "lost" spin? Should he rotate about his hips more? Or will that induce injury during the course of his career?

Right now, I have strongly suggested he does what they say, at least for the remaining two weeks of the "selection phase" of this squad training. The silver lining is that, if nothing else, it gives him a variation that can't be picked by the batsman who only watches the arm and hand.

Cheers,
Graeme
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Cheers Graeme, that's a massive endorsement of our work here and very much appreciated.
 
How do you go about describing this.

(1). You've got a Wrist-spinning Chinaman bowling at RH batsman.
(2). From the bowlers perspective he's bowling using the classic Stock Leg-Break technique e.g. out of the front of the hand, but because he's a Chinaman the outcome at the right-handed batsmans end is an Off-break. Does the Chinaman bowler call his stock delivery a leg break - as it would be to a LH bat. Or does he call it an off-break if he's bowling to a RH batsman?
(3). How would the batsman describe the ball?

Personally if I was a Chinaman I think I'd call my Stock Ball an "Off-break" if I was bowling to a RH batsman and a Leg Break if I was bowling to Left-handed batsman.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
How do you go about describing this.

(1). You've got a Wrist-spinning Chinaman bowling at RH batsman.
(2). From the bowlers perspective he's bowling using the classic Stock Leg-Break technique e.g. out of the front of the hand, but because he's a Chinaman the outcome at the right-handed batsmans end is an Off-break. Does the Chinaman bowler call his stock delivery a leg break - as it would be to a LH bat. Or does he call it an off-break if he's bowling to a RH batsman?
(3). How would the batsman describe the ball?

Personally if I was a Chinaman I think I'd call my Stock Ball an "Off-break" if I was bowling to a RH batsman and a Leg Break if I was bowling to Left-handed batsman.
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As a right arm 'wrist spinner' I call myself a right arm leg spin bowler which means my stock delivery is delivered with my right arm and goes from leg to off when delivered to a RHB. Therefore a left arm leg spinner's stock delivery will be delivered with their left arm and go from leg to off for a LHB, likewise the old 'left arm orthodox' would be described as a left arm offspinner.

That's just my opinion and I don't know if anyone else describes it that way.
 
Thanks for the advice guys. Just to clarify, they don't want to change the angle of his run up, just the placement of his front foot relative to his back foot in the delivery stride. The foot placement is his natural delivery stride, and I'm still a little torn about whether he should change what works for him as his natural method, versus what will (perhaps) help him avoid long-term injury worries. Interestingly, I've just had a look at Warnie's action in this video again, and Sean's feet are almost exactly placed in the same positions as Warnie's during the delivery (see especially at 2:27). This makes me lean more strongly towards letting well enough alone.

He's been bowling leg spin for the last two seasons (including practicing during the off season) and gets good rotation on the leggies and the top spinners. We've largely stayed away from wronguns , even though he can bowl them. That was due to the advice on these threads - his natural delivery 4 years ago was the wrongun and I didn't want him being trapped in that delivery inadvertently.

He's now getting conflicting advice from each of the four or five coaches at the training sessions. One wants him to bowl more round-arm style, while another wants him to bowl straight arm and reach higher (same leg spin delivery in both cases). One wants a faster run-up and another wants more "explosion" on the crease. It's getting very confusing for him, as he can't satisfy all coaches all the time. Consequently, and perhaps understandably, he's not bowling consistently at these sessions. So this week, as homework, we are going to concentrate on going back to his basic, natural deliveries (leggies and toppies.). These are what got him noticed in the first place, so I think we should reinforce that natural style once again and try to incorporate some of the messages he has received where they do not conflict with that style. Round-arm is fine for the leggies, straight arm is fine for the toppies, and stepping across the crease - just like Warnie - is not something I'll stop him doing. It works for him and perhaps more importantly, it gives him confidence that he can spin it when he bowls that way.

Cheers,
Graeme
 
Kalgrm said:
Thanks for the advice guys. Just to clarify, they don't want to change the angle of his run up, just the placement of his front foot relative to his back foot in the delivery stride. The foot placement is his natural delivery stride, and I'm still a little torn about whether he should change what works for him as his natural method, versus what will (perhaps) help him avoid long-term injury worries. Interestingly, I've just had a look at Warnie's action in this video again, and Sean's feet are almost exactly placed in the same positions as Warnie's during the delivery (see especially at 2:27). This makes me lean more strongly towards letting well enough alone.

He's been bowling leg spin for the last two seasons (including practicing during the off season) and gets good rotation on the leggies and the top spinners. We've largely stayed away from wronguns , even though he can bowl them. That was due to the advice on these threads - his natural delivery 4 years ago was the wrongun and I didn't want him being trapped in that delivery inadvertently.

He's now getting conflicting advice from each of the four or five coaches at the training sessions. One wants him to bowl more round-arm style, while another wants him to bowl straight arm and reach higher (same leg spin delivery in both cases). One wants a faster run-up and another wants more "explosion" on the crease. It's getting very confusing for him, as he can't satisfy all coaches all the time. Consequently, and perhaps understandably, he's not bowling consistently at these sessions. So this week, as homework, we are going to concentrate on going back to his basic, natural deliveries (leggies and toppies.). These are what got him noticed in the first place, so I think we should reinforce that natural style once again and try to incorporate some of the messages he has received where they do not conflict with that style. Round-arm is fine for the leggies, straight arm is fine for the toppies, and stepping across the crease - just like Warnie - is not something I'll stop him doing. It works for him and perhaps more importantly, it gives him confidence that he can spin it when he bowls that way.

Cheers,
Graeme
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It's hard to tell the value of the coaches advice directed at your young fellow. I mean it seems general enough and maybe they went into more detail but to me it sounds like they may have come up with solutions to non existent problems just for the sake of coming up with some coaching to offer?

Sometimes you have to take what some of those coaches say with a grain of salt. You have to sus just how much these coaches really know about legspin bowling.
 
Kalgrm said:
Thanks for the advice guys. Just to clarify, they don't want to change the angle of his run up, just the placement of his front foot relative to his back foot in the delivery stride. The foot placement is his natural delivery stride, and I'm still a little torn about whether he should change what works for him as his natural method, versus what will (perhaps) help him avoid long-term injury worries. Interestingly, I've just had a look at Warnie's action in this video again, and Sean's feet are almost exactly placed in the same positions as Warnie's during the delivery (see especially at 2:27). This makes me lean more strongly towards letting well enough alone.

He's been bowling leg spin for the last two seasons (including practicing during the off season) and gets good rotation on the leggies and the top spinners. We've largely stayed away from wronguns , even though he can bowl them. That was due to the advice on these threads - his natural delivery 4 years ago was the wrongun and I didn't want him being trapped in that delivery inadvertently.

He's now getting conflicting advice from each of the four or five coaches at the training sessions. One wants him to bowl more round-arm style, while another wants him to bowl straight arm and reach higher (same leg spin delivery in both cases). One wants a faster run-up and another wants more "explosion" on the crease. It's getting very confusing for him, as he can't satisfy all coaches all the time. Consequently, and perhaps understandably, he's not bowling consistently at these sessions. So this week, as homework, we are going to concentrate on going back to his basic, natural deliveries (leggies and toppies.). These are what got him noticed in the first place, so I think we should reinforce that natural style once again and try to incorporate some of the messages he has received where they do not conflict with that style. Round-arm is fine for the leggies, straight arm is fine for the toppies, and stepping across the crease - just like Warnie - is not something I'll stop him doing. It works for him and perhaps more importantly, it gives him confidence that he can spin it when he bowls that way.

Cheers,
Graeme
Click to expand...

Here the coaching at 13 years old would be a very light touch, if he's getting the ball to turn off the wicket and he's taking wickets and enjoying it, the advice would be to keep as you are. The main thing is that the lads enjoying it, intervention from 4 different coaches suggesting different things is potentially a recipe for confusing the lad and ultimately turning him off the art. There's a rare coaching video over here that generally is only accessible to ECB coaches (Not on the internet anywhere) and of all the things you've mentioned - the "explosion through the crease" is the only thing that he advocates. All the other things he says come as a part of the individuals intrinsic development and should be dealt with on an 'As they happen' basis, so when the lad himself recognises that he has a deficiency, then offer the coaching that helps with that specifically.

With regards at trying to use Warne as a template, that's potentially flawed as well, as Warne is so unique in his physical build and his abilities. If you're concerned about long term physical issues as a part of an unorthodox bowling action, it might be an idea to upload a video shot from behind, in front and from the side to siliconcoach and have it analysed there. Ensure that you label it correctly e.g. wrist spinner, bowling, cricket etc and the people on there will look at the bio-mechanics and give you a view on the situation.
 
... they may have come up with solutions to non existent problems just for the sake of coming up with some coaching to offer?

Sometimes you have to take what some of those coaches say with a grain of salt. You have to sus just how much these coaches really know about legspin bowling.
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Hi Macca,

Yeah, I think there might be a little of this going on with them: offering advice for the sake of offering advice. Only one of them is able to demonstrate by actually bowling leg spin. The others just show him what they want him to do without bowling a ball. They've been in the game for some time, but are not specialist leg spin bowlers. (Interestingly, the one who does bowl leggies is the son of the main coach, a 15 or 16 year old boy. He does seem to know what he's doing and analyses Sean's action with a critical eye.)

Since this is still a squad selection phase of their training schedule, I know one of the things they are assessing in all the kids is their ability to take on coaching advice. The coaches have told us they want to see if the kids can be coached, in addition to having some fairly good basic skills, so this advice and Sean's response to it may well be just part of their selection process.

Cheers,
Graeme
 
With regards at trying to use Warne as a template, that's potentially flawed as well, as Warne is so unique in his physical build and his abilities. If you're concerned about long term physical issues as a part of an unorthodox bowling action, it might be an idea to upload a video shot from behind, in front and from the side to siliconcoach and have it analysed there. Ensure that you label it correctly e.g. wrist spinner, bowling, cricket etc and the people on there will look at the bio-mechanics and give you a view on the situation.
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Hi Dave,

Can you explain what is unique about Warne's physical build? He looks like an average sort of build to me. (At least, he did when he was playing - now he just looks weird. Maybe that's just jealousy on my part though - I mean, Liz is an absolute babe in anyone's eyes!!! :) )

I strongly believe Warnie's abilities are the result of countless hours of practice, refining his precision within that style of his. I don't think there is any skill or ability in his bowling that he hasn't learnt through practice. There is nothing stopping any bowler getting to Warne's level of accomplishment apart from those hours of practice. It has to be a life-consuming obsession though.

Personally, I don't think there is anything unorthodox about Sean's bowling action (unless you consider Warne's action as unorthodox too.) It looks completely natural and almost effortless from where I stand, but he tells me it's hard work. Even so, he will bowl for a couple of hours straight at the nets if I let him: he loves it that much. I like the idea of posting the vid on silicon coach though, so I'll get working on it. (I might post one here first though, just so you guys can tell us if you think his bowling action looks unorthodox.)

Thanks again for the sounding board to bounce ideas on. Love your work guys ....

Cheers,
Graeme
 
Kalgrm said:
Hi Dave,

Can you explain what is unique about Warne's physical build? He looks like an average sort of build to me. (At least, he did when he was playing - now he just looks weird. Maybe that's just jealousy on my part though - I mean, Liz is an absolute babe in anyone's eyes!!! :) )

I strongly believe Warnie's abilities are the result of countless hours of practice, refining his precision within that style of his. I don't think there is any skill or ability in his bowling that he hasn't learnt through practice. There is nothing stopping any bowler getting to Warne's level of accomplishment apart from those hours of practice. It has to be a life-consuming obsession though.

Personally, I don't think there is anything unorthodox about Sean's bowling action (unless you consider Warne's action as unorthodox too.) It looks completely natural and almost effortless from where I stand, but he tells me it's hard work. Even so, he will bowl for a couple of hours straight at the nets if I let him: he loves it that much. I like the idea of posting the vid on silicon coach though, so I'll get working on it. (I might post one here first though, just so you guys can tell us if you think his bowling action looks unorthodox.)

Thanks again for the sounding board to bounce ideas on. Love your work guys ....

Cheers,
Graeme
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Graeme, I'm just assuming that someone has said that his action isn't correct going by what you've said (Therefore unorthodox)? Similarly, Warnes bowling action isn't unorthodox, but I'm under the impression from what I've gleaned from those that in the know about bio-mechanics, it's not neccessarily a good idea to try and emulate Warne. Physically for a start Warnes got fore-arms that look like my thighs! I've got a kid in our club that's only just thirteen and he spins the ball massively and I've been given the job of looking out for him and his action is nothing like Warnes or anyones for that matter, but for the moment it's fine, but you could pick holes all over it, but he bowls for the district and in the U15's and adult games and gets wickets and I reckon it could easiy be contsrued as unorthodox. But it's not wrong - it gets him wickets and he loves it, but you easily burden him with suggestions and ideas that could easily mess him up.
 
No, I think the coaches are just finding little things to advise on, rather than trying to correct a truly unorthodox action.

I reckon those forearms of Warnies have developed solely due to the amount of practice he did, just as tenis players' preferred arms do. One won't get the amount of spin Warnie did first up, but with years of practice, it would develop (along with great control.) Of course, Warnie could have been secretly eating spinach to get those forearms: he was into that performance enhancing stuff, ya know! :)

but you easily burden him with suggestions and ideas that could easily mess him up
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Yep, that's my concern now. Back to basics this week ...

Cheers,
Graeme
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I reckon a fair few of us would migrate over to a new forum if it happens and it doesn't take a lot of traffic to get yourself in the top ten option in a google search - I mean - my blog has been on several ocassions the first choice in front of wikipedia, Warne videos and like, so I reckon we'd easily make our presence made even if it was a totally new off the peg type forum. Wrist Spinning and spinning in general is a very niche subject area with very esoteric terminology so easily found when searching on Google.
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:confused:
 
The spammers are still around. Site has died, seriously, it's dead.

Time for a new site, lovingly maintained and one that actively promotes what you guys do.
 
Davron said:
The spammers are still around. Site has died, seriously, it's dead.

Time for a new site, lovingly maintained and one that actively promotes what you guys do.
Click to expand...

Yeah I keep looking in here and there's some activity from some new names which is good, over at my forum, the old crew are relatively active, but that forum is a free format so is limited in it's potential, so in a way if Bigcricket was to get it's act together I'd probably advocate migrating back here? Is there still loads of spamming? I did notice that there was one incidence on my forum and someone had notified me, so I just removed it what with being the Admin, so I guess that all that spamming on here was allowed to happen just because the Admins weren't looking in and doing their job?
 
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