Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[AC222]

Physics ATAR and dash of boredom

This was a great explanation of drift. Other observations I would add are that you get more drift the colder it is, and the less humid the air. Colder air is more dense, and dry air is (counterintuitively) more dense than humid air. The more dense the air the greater the effect and force on the ball. So I notice it much more at the end of evening nets when it is cloudy.

I also find cross wind helps a lot.

Dip is a funny one because as a bowler it is much harder to pick up how much actually you are getting the ball to dip, but the books and coaching manuals constantly talk about how fundamental it is.

 

[AC222]

I have tried a bit of the faster undercut (I.e flying saucer) leg break as another variation. The idea being if you undercut enough it will still drift towards leg but miss the seam when it bounces and instead bounces on the smooth side of the ball, going pretty much straight on. To the batter it looks like a conventional enough leg break but doesn’t really turn.

 

[Leggy88]

I have tried a bit of the faster undercut (I.e flying saucer) leg break as another variation. The idea being if you undercut enough it will still drift towards leg but miss the seam when it bounces and instead bounces on the smooth side of the ball, going pretty much straight on. To the batter it looks like a conventional enough leg break but doesn’t really turn.

How do you bowl this ball so it has flying saucer, e.g. horizontal spin?

 

[doc8176]

How do you bowl this ball so it has flying saucer, e.g. horizontal spin?

It’s way easier to do as an offie, but from my experience trying to do it as a leggy you kind of need to open your hand up and go around the back of the ball. Really hard to do though.


Also my Tapatalk works now

 

[doc8176]

I have tried a bit of the faster undercut (I.e flying saucer) leg break as another variation. The idea being if you undercut enough it will still drift towards leg but miss the seam when it bounces and instead bounces on the smooth side of the ball, going pretty much straight on. To the batter it looks like a conventional enough leg break but doesn’t really turn.

Yup, great variation. Even Nathan Lyon who notoriously has no variations learnt it at some point in his career and uses it effectively now.

 

[Leggy88]

It’s way easier to do as an offie, but from my experience trying to do it as a leggy you kind of need to open your hand up and go around the back of the ball. Really hard to do though.


Also my Tapatalk works now

Ahh yep, can imagine it now. Sounds difficult.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

This was a great explanation of drift. Other observations I would add are that you get more drift the colder it is, and the less humid the air. Colder air is more dense, and dry air is (counterintuitively) more dense than humid air. The more dense the air the greater the effect and force on the ball. So I notice it much more at the end of evening nets when it is cloudy.

I also find cross wind helps a lot.

Dip is a funny one because as a bowler it is much harder to pick up how much actually you are getting the ball to dip, but the books and coaching manuals constantly talk about how fundamental it is.

I find it does the batsman all ends up, easy to see when you've got it coming out well.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

I caught up with the end of the India/Eng test today and Kuldeep Yadav got man of the match. He was then asked about what he'd done to improve so much and I found his answer interesting "I've been working on my length, totally focused on the length and getting that right and compeletly ignoring the batsman". Good to hear him say that. I've always said that its important, I guess he knows he can spin the ball and doesn't worry about agonising over 'Spinning the ball hard'.

 

[Fleetwood]

Fleetwood, I have to keep remembering that you're primarily bowling off-breaks to a right-hander. So, my observations with that scenario are... I went for 2-3 years only able to bowl Wrong-uns and found that once the batters had recognised that as being the case, the threat was for the most part dealt with. Leading up to succumbing completely to 'Googly syndrome' I had an ever-decreasing Leg-Break, but during that phase I used to take wickets and was a bit of a handful despite being a particularly wayward bowler. The period only bowling Wrong-uns was a bit of a low ebb and only improved once I started bowling The Flipper, so I can see where you're coming from and with your 2up 2down seam ball and if it works, I wouldn't bust a gut changing it to be honest. I've never read about anyone bowling it, maybe Amol Rajan (Twirlymen)? He writes about some pretty weird variations in his book and that might be one of them? I'd have to re-read it and check, so don't take that as gospel.

I think looking forwards it sounds like you've got the foundations for potential long term gains. I bowl with a very high arm generally, but sometimes in games I lower it and take a risk with a lower arm because it brings so much more to the party as such, other than accuracy. My lower arm action increases dip, creates drift which isn't a feature of my bowling generally, more action on the ball and far more bounce and turn off the wicket. I think if I was where you are, I'd not go looking to change the action in the short term and stick with it this coming season and work with it? I think you're probably right with regards to lower arm making the top-spinner potentially harder to bowl. However, I don't think it's impossible and with some work on wrist presentation it's potentially achievable, I don't know what Leggie would say about that as I think he bowls with a fairly low action and he bowls a top-spinner? It might be worth a punt using the View attachment 2631fingery technique in the nets pre-season and see how it works out you might be surprised?

Yeah, if you don't bowl wrist-spin I don't think people realise how hard it is to develop and maintain accuracy with 2 variations let alone three or more! For me, gone are the days when I'd be trying to bowl 5 variations. Yeah, you're right the Flipper is my main ball - the basic back-spinner, but with sub-variations in the form of seam-up, cross seamed and mixed seam, even though they are minimal changes it makes a significant difference in the way the ball feels in my hand and the classic Shane Warne seam up flipper is the one I bowl the least because it feels so odd to me these days. It used to be the only way I bowled the back-spinner once upon a time. Increasingly, in games where I have good support in the field and play with better players (Friendlies) I bowl more Leg-Breaks knowing that the batters are familiar with the delivery and come out with that notion of 'Not letting the Leggie settle' and look to tee off at the earliest opportunity. It was interesting today that Rehan Ahmed was saying that he had the license to bowl in a way that was going to enable the batters to hit him for 4's and 6's, but also knowing that at some point that was going to result in a wicket - stumped/caught in the deep. Those dismissals in my regular team, are just not going to happen (5th XI) but in 3rd XI games and friendlies with a mix of players from all teams and the better youth players, I come into my own tossing up Leg-breaks on a more frequent basis in between the Flippers and generally have a good game. I was listening to the commentary of the live test match and Pietersen was saying the same thing -bring the field up, offer the chance for the batter to go over mid-on and mid-off... yeah if gets it right and hits you for 4 or 6... well batted, but at some point he's going to run past the ball or mis-time it and be caught.

Therefore, I don't think it's necessary to have all the 'Toys in the box' as Terry Jenner says? You just need to be able to bowl a good Leg-break and have some control over that - smaller and larger turn, good control of length and line, speed & flight plus increase/decrease in the revs you put on the ball. We have a girl in our team Kirby. I think last season she tied with me for 3rd highest wicket taker at the club (5 teams) but her strike rate was so much better than mine and yet by her own admission she hardly turns the ball, she just floats the ball up and lands it on a good length and varies the speed. She's brought on frequently when everyone else is getting carted around the ground for 4's and 6's by some wanna-be Steve Smith/Virat Kholi/Ben Stokes (Delete as appropriate) and generally destroys them within a couple of overs. It's so good to watch!

Re the rarity of The Flipper, yeah you're right. I couldn't name a single player that bowls it at first class or international level. I think I've said before, I've only known my mate Alex 'The Wizard' McClellan bowl it other than me and that's because I encouraged him to bowl it.

So in conclusion, I'd say work with what you've got at the moment and maybe try and add the 'Fingery' release and see if that helps with getting the ball down with more over-spin, even a little straighter will have benefits. That's all I'm working on - adding the straighter ball with over-spin, if it's not pure top-spin it wont matter just the fact that it turns less and bounces more will do for most batters when mixed with my other 2 balls.

Thanks very much for your thoughts Dave - definitely agree that you don't need all the toys in the box! If I can get a topspinner to work, and have full control of switching between topspin and offspin, I'd probably be happy with that. I've been trying to bowl a pure-ish topspinner, but oddly enough, trying to bring my hand straight over the front of the ball seems to produce a bigger & quicker-spinning offbreak. As my stock delivery tends to turn quite big but relatively slowly, I think I was delivering it with too square a seam, so by consciously trying to put more topspin on it, I'm arriving at a better stock ball. The squarer seam delivery will be more use as a variation, especially as it occasionally fails to grip and goes straight on, presumably through pitching on the smooth leather.
That pic is actually the posh ground down the road - my club's ground is a little down the seafront , but only a little bit further from the sea. It's not as nice (astroturf pitch & dodgy outfield), but there's permanent nets which mean I can get down there whenever it's dry enough, and being by the south coast, it doesn't really get that cold here so I can bowl most of the winter, it's the dark that stops me. My club is a one-team outfit with just Saturday 50-overs& midweek T20 sides - this means that at team nets I spend most of my time bowling to 1st team batsmen who are relatively much better than me (especially so because the gun bats are much more likely to turn up to nets than the bowlers). I think this has possibly made me over-conscious of getting carted, but is probably good practice - bowling in games actually feels easier by comparison!

 

[Fleetwood]

I caught up with the end of the India/Eng test today and Kuldeep Yadav got man of the match. He was then asked about what he'd done to improve so much and I found his answer interesting "I've been working on my length, totally focused on the length and getting that right and compeletly ignoring the batsman". Good to hear him say that. I've always said that its important, I guess he knows he can spin the ball and doesn't worry about agonising over 'Spinning the ball hard'.

What a time it is to be a left-arm wristspinner - back in the nineties, I had to make do with the odd glimpse of Michael Bevan. Very honourable mention to GB Hogg, but Kuldeep has got to be the best leftie I've seen in tests - I particularly enjoy him because he's a really classical legspinner, just when that type seemed to have disappeared from tests. He's definitely put on a few KPH, but I can't see that he's doing all that much different - his action is a little bit more straight-at-the-batsman, and he keeps his front arm a little bit tighter to the side, but other than that, is he just doing everything a bit faster? Have any of the more experienced bowlers here ever successfully upped their pace?

 

[Fleetwood]

This was a great explanation of drift. Other observations I would add are that you get more drift the colder it is, and the less humid the air. Colder air is more dense, and dry air is (counterintuitively) more dense than humid air. The more dense the air the greater the effect and force on the ball. So I notice it much more at the end of evening nets when it is cloudy.

I also find cross wind helps a lot.

Dip is a funny one because as a bowler it is much harder to pick up how much actually you are getting the ball to dip, but the books and coaching manuals constantly talk about how fundamental it is.

This is a great discussion - it makes sense that the same conditions that help swing would help drift, very noticeable that Warnie's ball of the century with its massive drift was delivered in perfect English swing conditions - dry, cold & cloudy. Do we think that seam position affects drift? It's always seemed to me that spinners with a consistent seam presentation get a *lot* more drift - e.g. Warne (normally straight seam) got a lot more than Murali (almost always scrambled), but I wouldn't begin to know why.

EDIT - I've just seen that there is a lengthy thread in this very forum on this subject, and the majority view seems to be that while seamless balls (e..g golf balls) can display drift, where a seam is present it seems to greatly help to have consistent presentation as opposed to cross seam, although to be fair not everyone agrees on that.

 

[Fleetwood]

Alright so here it is:

View attachment 2713

View attachment 2705

So as the air hits the rotating ball, the side rotating with the flow (bottom) allows the air to quickly pass over the ball and because of physics, fast air has a lower pressure. The airflow that hits the side rotating against the airflow slows it down and causes it to be turbulent and slower air = higher pressure. Because one side has a higher pressure than other, and this higher pressure side quickly separates from the ball, it causes the ball to move towards the low pressure side. This is drift.

View attachment 2712

View attachment 2706

For swing, its a similar concept, except because there is a seam creating turbulence, as opposed to the ball rotating against the flow of air, the turbulent air is not pushed off of the ball, and actually sticks to it for longer than the laminar flow would for the other side. This causes the ball to move towards the way the seam is pointing.

It is a little confusing because drift moves away from the turbulent side and swing moves towards it. But I guess the important difference is that the turbulent air separates quickly for drift whereas swing separates late. I would look further but I have neither the time, nor the brainpower to do that.

That's the confusing physics part, now for the more theory crafting part I was looking forward to. For the sake of consistency imagine all these deliveries have exactly the same RPM.

1. So, lets say you send down a perfectly side spinning off/leg break, completely flat, with no flight and only "Corkscrew" spin and no "flying saucer", top or back spin, it will only drift slightly and consistently throughout its flight (due to some wind getting caught and dragged in by the seam). This is because the magnus effect requires the ball to be spinning with/against the flow of air.

2. Now say you bowl it with the same trajectory and speed, but with entirely "flying saucer" spin. This delivery should drift massively, but again should move out of the hand and consistently throughout flight. This one is funny because if air resistance and gravity didn't exist it could technically drift 180 degrees and come back to you.

3. Now go back to the "corkscrew" spin, except this time you toss it up and let it drop a bit. At the start of its flight path, when its moving parallel to the ground it will not drift much (like in #1), however, once it starts to drop at the end of its flight, its axis of spin will line up with the airflow and the magnus effect will take a much greater effect, causing the ball to drift late in its flight. This should not move as much as #2, but as I'm sure you're all aware, a little bit of late drift is MUCH better than large drift out of the hand.

4. Now lets bowl one with entirely top spin, this will make the ball "drift" downwards also known as dip. If bowled with back spin it will "drift" upwards and float towards the batsman a bit (could theoretically get the ball to actually move upwards like this ).

5. Bowl one with 50/50 (possibly technically 46.7/53.3 or some weird number like that because physics) corkscrew spin and top spin and you'll have what I would call the perfect off/leg break, this should theoretically start above the batters eyes, drift a touch, and the start dipping and drifting late in its flight. But because using the pitch is also a part of cricket this would vary pitch by pitch.

6. However, most bowlers have a slight bit of "flying saucer" spin and its hard not to, an example is Ravichandran Ashwin:

View attachment 2707

That's mostly upright but it is slightly tilted to the right. I would imagine this is more due to natural hands position and that slight difference making absolutely no effect on what his off break does. But for the sake of this, it should technically make his off break spin more, because as was failed to be mentioned earlier, your delivery does not fall at a 90 degree angle, so ideally a little bit of saucer spin isn't a bad thing. This will generate the most drift.

7. The arm ball/swinging flipper. This will be a mix of both back and side spin and is basically just a out/inswinger. From experience this is a great delivery, especially if you naturally drift the ball into a batsman and turn it away, you can set them up and then bowl one that still swings in but doesn't turn. Chinaman34 has experienced this first hand, although ironically this is the only delivery he made contact with . This ball should both drift and swing by both mechanisms I attached at the start of this post, making it move a lot in the air, especially with a newer ball. This is another delivery by Ashwin, it won't move as much as it would if it had more backspin, but this would be significantly harder to pick.

View attachment 2711

This is great stuff - have you read Brian Wilkins' book The Bowler's Art? covers this sort of ground (and agrees with you entirely btw)

 

[AC222]

What a time it is to be a left-arm wristspinner - back in the nineties, I had to make do with the odd glimpse of Michael Bevan. Very honourable mention to GB Hogg, but Kuldeep has got to be the best leftie I've seen in tests - I particularly enjoy him because he's a really classical legspinner, just when that type seemed to have disappeared from tests. He's definitely put on a few KPH, but I can't see that he's doing all that much different - his action is a little bit more straight-at-the-batsman, and he keeps his front arm a little bit tighter to the side, but other than that, is he just doing everything a bit faster? Have any of the more experienced bowlers here ever successfully upped their pace?

Re: increasing pace - short answer is yes. Not particularly intentionally. Three things: faster run up, stronger front arm, and more power in the back leg hip drive through. I try not to worry about it though. 3rd / 4th team players say I’m bowling very quickly, at almost ‘medium pace’. When I occasionally bowl at our overseas pro he tells me “you’re quite a slow spinner.” So I guess it’s all relative! The Peter Philpott book says, paraphrasing: if you are putting optimum momentum and energy into the ball then what comes out is your natural pace, and that is the speed you should bowl. That’s been my guiding philosophy.

At elite level it does seem to matter much more, as you say Kuldeep seems to be bowling at a pace where batters don’t have the time to sit back and wait to see which way the ball is turning.

 

[Richie]

I've been working on my length, totally focused on the length

Something young Aussie leggie Tanveer Sangha can copy. If Kuldeep tours I suggest Sangha watches him in action to improve his length which will snare him more wickets..

 

[Richie]

You guys enjoying the new dark mode software. Seemed to take an age for it to be done. Reckon it was worth the wait.

 

[Richie]

What a time it is to be a left-arm wristspinner -

A bit of a rare species to be honest. Just trying to think of one in state cricket currently.

Who knows the origin of the term 'chinaman'?

For those who dont it is traditionally believed to have originated with the former West Indian left arm finger spinner Ellis Achong during an England/ West Indies Test match at Old Trafford in 1933. For some reason Achong bowled an unexpected delivery from his wrist outside off which turned so sharply after pitching that it had the English batsman Walter Robins stumped. Achong was the first Test cricketer of Chinese origin and it is said that a perplexed and angry Robins commented while walking towards the pavilion – “Fancy being done by a bloody Chinaman.”

 

[Leggy88]

You guys enjoying the new dark mode software. Seemed to take an age for it to be done. Reckon it was worth the wait.

Yeah its much better.

 

[Richie]

Yeah its much better.

Glad you are enjoying it Leggy88. To the other members on this thread not using the new software I ask you to switch to black mode when you log off to hopefully entice visitors to register. Fact is we need more posters on the actual games thread, Baggy Greens, domestic etc.

 

[doc8176]

Do any of you have training sessions where you just forget how to bowl spin. I went to the nets with someone yesterday and was just bowling straight breaks with no top spin or turn. Just could not get it right. Felt weird bowling too.

Was bowling my meds nicely though lol.

 

[Leggy88]

Do any of you have training sessions where you just forget how to bowl spin. I went to the nets with someone yesterday and was just bowling straight breaks with no top spin or turn. Just could not get it right. Felt weird bowling too.

Was bowling my meds nicely though lol.

Yeah for sure, can be frustrating. Just one of those days.