Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

someblokecalleddave;408491 said:
New video see here http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t75717-5/#post408490 for my own comments on it or go direct to it here YouTube - Leg Spin Bowling action slow motion analysis
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Dave - I'm not even close to understanding spin bowling - but the way your body is falling away somehow seems a bit off to me - As I see it- poise is an integral part of cricket be it batting, bowling or fielding. Entire theory of footwork, positioning etc is based on that - So, when I see your body's center of gravity going outside of the plumbline drawn from your base(legs) it seems like you are slightly off-balance here.
As you know - throwing offbalance significantly reduces the power and accuracy of the throw- it could apply to bowling too.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Hey, changing clubs has been tricky and harder than I thought but my young bloke got a start with the 1st 11 at his new club. And will be playing in a higher division this season.

The only reason he got picked for the firsts is the fact he is a legspinner and they want one, badly. Great isn't it?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

macca;408526 said:
Keep the skip. Too late to drop it now, don't you reckon?
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I reckon keep the skip as well. To lose the skip would probably take a seasons worth of development.

So keep the skip, but sort out the over-rotation. Your action falls over a bit to the left throughout, but after you release the ball your upper body rotates through but the lower body lags behind, so you end up with your chest facing backwards, and then eventually the hips almost catch up and face sideways. the whole body should be aligned (hips and shoulders) throughout the action, and should end up pretty much all facing sideways where your hips end up. im not a biomechanist, but id think that if they dont you could effectively say that the legs are cosmetic, they arent contributing. youre bowling with your upper body. the upper body is leading the hips, whereas it should be both working in unison.

this is fairly similar to my own issues, except that i dont over-rotate. my upper body is just a fraction ahead of my lower body throughout the action. which is why i fall over, and why i dont get up onto my toes early enough (although that is also the cause lol). if i can sort this out then il gain speed and power, as well as consistency and accuracy! so i imagine the same will apply to your action.

the best bit of advice Liz gave me for putting this into practice is to think about it in terms of getting your hips driving forwards. drive the hips and the rest takes care of itself. if you drive your upper body then you can generate power, but in an uncontrolled manner, and in a way that will create injuries. if you drive from the hips then you bring your legs into play, and the legs are far more powerful than the shoulders.

you also need to think tall. not in terms of arm position though as yours is already very high, but think about staying upright. i think that your tipping over to the side is caused by the rest of the action though as i think is the case for me. simply thinking tall wont necessarily fix it. you need the hip drive, and body alignment first.

P.S. get a video from side-on and it will illustrate it better. as you plant your front foot your upper body will lurch forwards, but your hips wont move. you can pretty much see it in your video from front on. as you do this, you tip away to your left and then the lower body has to play catchup through the rest of the action. it was until i saw my action side on that i realised how significant it is.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah there's definitely issues there, I'll have to have a look later on tonight and try and tie in what you're all saying. I reckon there's slight similarities with Vettori's approach, but he keeps it all compact and going forward where's I move direction dramatically. I'll have a look later. That now kind of buggers up my plans on doing the walk in video drill because mine needs attention.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

macca;408527 said:
Hey, changing clubs has been tricky and harder than I thought but my young bloke got a start with the 1st 11 at his new club. And will be playing in a higher division this season.

The only reason he got picked for the firsts is the fact he is a legspinner and they want one, badly. Great isn't it?
Click to expand...

Definitely a good start. I had similar thing happen with my son. The little one Joe who's just rediscovered his Leg Break and also bowls a good wrong un, was mentioned in a meeting that I attended with all the youth squad managers and organisers. Joe was mentioned in the context of a performance a while back on grass where he took three wickets in 2 overs and they were saying that maybe he was being held back by the fact that our team practice on an artificial wicket and that maybe they should establish a grass wicket especially for the younger boys (20 yards) to practice on. But the overall feeling was that they're aware of what he does and can do and that they value his bowling because it differs from all the other boys. I reckon he was a contender for the 'Bowler of the year' right behind his older brother, I reckon it must have been a really close call! I'm going to have to look at their averages on their website.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

just to illustrate my point ive taken some screen shots and drawn lines on them.

untitled.jpg


the first picture shows you as you plant your foot. the chest and hip alignment is somewhere close, im not going to say its correct because im not qualified to do so. but to my uneducated eye, your alignment is probably ok. however, look at the red line and notice that your hips are back, and your upper body is already propelling forwards. this is why you are leaning over, and why your chest ends up over-rotating.

second picture shows you starting to over-rotate. you are falling away heavily by now and well off balance.

third picture shows the full severity of it all. your upper body has finished its action, but the lower body is in the kind of position youd want it to be in the 2nd picture!!

i remember Liz saying that you had over-rotating issues in the past and it was causing you an injury, i cant remember the details now. but im pretty sure the above is what the issue was. fix that and everything will probably fall into place around it :D
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Hey Dave I reckon that looks pretty good. I dont know if anyone has a copy of 'The worlds greatest leg spin bowlers" by Jack Pollard but it has a picture of Warney on the cover and he is leaning seriously to the left. i.e falling away. He is about 45 degrees.
Your skip is just a result of you getting side on at the delivery stride and your right foot landing behind the line of your left leg if that makes sense but I cant see that having any effects on your bowling. I think it looks quite powerful through the delivery stride .
Anyway, thats my two cents worth.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Hmmm, I'm crap at these technical issues and haven't got a clue as to how or why these are big issues. I'm aware that there's something going on with my calf muscles in my pivot leg and then through to my plantar (Foot). I'll have to see if I find some front on footage of a pro (Beau Casson would have been good) and see what you're on about? One of those overlay vids would be good so I see my action v someone else.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

imagine that you are just standing up straight facing a mirror. your shoulders are flat and your chest is facing the mirror front on. the same goes for your hips. they are both aligned.

in an ideal world they would stay this way through the entire bowling action, so that everything is working in unison. that isnt to say you need to be rigid and just rotate around your foot, the shoulders and legs will still drive independently. i cant really explain it any more than that in words, you just have to watch someone like Shane Warne in action to see it.

if you rotate at the hips in an uncontrolled way then i imagine it puts stress on the spine, back and chest muscles. it will also put stress on your lower leg where it has to twist and bear load at an awkward angle (this is where my issues were specifically, although my back would probably have had issues in the long term if id carried on as i was). and because you use your shoulders to generate the power rather than the whole body it will put stress on your shoulders as well. Liz would be able to explain that more correctly than i probably just have lol.

all i know is that the shoulders and hips should be aligned throughout the action. you watch someone like Shane Warne and he would lean over and bend like anyone else, there isnt necessarily anything wrong with that, so long as you are balanced. but you watch his shoulders and hips and they were always aligned, or close to it. and his weight would be on the balls of his feet and then up onto his toes. hence his action looked so smooth and flowing. everything worked in unison.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

chippyben;408537 said:
Hey Dave I reckon that looks pretty good. I dont know if anyone has a copy of 'The worlds greatest leg spin bowlers" by Jack Pollard but it has a picture of Warney on the cover and he is leaning seriously to the left. i.e falling away. He is about 45 degrees.
Your skip is just a result of you getting side on at the delivery stride and your right foot landing behind the line of your left leg if that makes sense but I cant see that having any effects on your bowling. I think it looks quite powerful through the delivery stride .
Anyway, thats my two cents worth.
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Hey Dave, I was watching your video earlier today and I was thinking about how to explain to you what was "wrong" about your falling away. I particularly was thinking about how to make you understand when Warney seems to do the same thing you do. When Chippyben talked about Warney going 45 degrees I immediately thought of this explanation.

Sure Warney does go 45 degrees -- but when? After ball release.

IPL -- Beauty to Virat Kohli... "Look at what Warne can do!"
dave1l.jpg


vs England 1993 or the Gatting Ball
dave2g.jpg


vs South Africa to Gibbs
dave3.jpg


Warne does lean slightly before ball release -- but not as much as you do.

Trunk Lean is essential. Everyone with a high arm action i.e. anyone who doesn't sling needs to fall away. However you may have heard the common coaching cliche -- you're falling away. Stop falling away.... what this means is don't fall away too early. Really think about having good posture at the bowling crease until you release the ball and then push your body forward and to the off-side. This will cause you to do as Warne does -- lean to the left slightly before ball release, and lean 45 degrees after ball release. This is essentially what Mark Nicholas calls staying upright at the crease.

Also another thing -- you can definitely brace your leg up sooner. i.e. bend it sooner. This will naturally have you stamp down on your front leg faster. This will also help you get your shoulder through faster. You'll bowl faster and get more revolutions.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I might shoot it from the back and above just to try and get some sort of sense of what you're saying and so that I can make some comparison to Warne, the point with regards the angle and the point at which I release the ball sounds like something I might be able to look at. But, the grass was damp when I shot the clip so if we're thinking in terms of making very close comparisons and looking at what to me seem like subtle changes, shooting again with it being solid and safe under foot might be a good idea as I may have been bowling less than 100% because of the slipperyness of the grass?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

someblokecalleddave;408533 said:
Definitely a good start. I had similar thing happen with my son. The little one Joe who's just rediscovered his Leg Break and also bowls a good wrong un, was mentioned in a meeting that I attended with all the youth squad managers and organisers. Joe was mentioned in the context of a performance a while back on grass where he took three wickets in 2 overs and they were saying that maybe he was being held back by the fact that our team practice on an artificial wicket and that maybe they should establish a grass wicket especially for the younger boys (20 yards) to practice on. But the overall feeling was that they're aware of what he does and can do and that they value his bowling because it differs from all the other boys. I reckon he was a contender for the 'Bowler of the year' right behind his older brother, I reckon it must have been a really close call! I'm going to have to look at their averages on their website.
Click to expand...

Hey dave, who was the elderly gentleman presenting your sons best bowler trophy, his face looks familiar.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

He's a local bloke Bob Ayres, his family are big in cricket in this area and have always had family connections with Basildon and Pitsea cricket club. I think he was a batsman.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I wouldn't say completely changed, there is still the same core action but you seem to be getting a straighter style of approach with the new walk minus skip? whereas before you did go a bit sideways near delivery?

If you get it under your belt then try it out on some batsmen it will be interesting.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Dave - I've been reading Philpott again, and he says that approaching at a slight angle can be helpful in getting sideways. What's important is not falling away to the leg side before the ball leaves the hand.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Sad end to the season -
Saturday played a semifinal - ground was too short square of the wicket - 50-55 yards each - and mis-hits and pickups were carrying over the boundary for a sixes. I did well first four overs getting a left handed opener to give a catch at long on (which was dropped) before finally getting him out caught at sweeper cover off a short ball - he made 68(42). Then came my fifth over - probably their best bat - was driving the seamers for sixers on the up - first ball edges to vacant slip region - single, second ball swept for a single, third, fourth, fifth balls all horribly short/one full toss above waist( given as a noball) all hit for sixes. next ball was another horrible short pitch, this time he was caught at deep square leg. last ball - new batsman got an edge driving just wide of the slip. Gave away 23 runs in that over. came back to bowl one more over in which i kept the batsman down to 3 runs. final analysis read 6-0-53-2. Got their two best batsmen out but other than that one over, it was alright.
While chasing - 3 of us (including I ) were given out with ball clearly slipping down the leg left arm around -wide of crease and swinging in (a hat-trick for the bowler) and then two of our batsmen given out runouts when they were clearly in- all seemed like a conspiracy.

Second match on sunday - this team had an awesome bowling attack with players having been selected for USA national team a couple of times - i was manning hte boundaries from the very start and in getting a flat throw in (and getting a runout) I hurt my shoulder. Captain wanted to give me an over soon after that- but the throw jarred my shoulder so badly that I couldnt feel the ball coming out of my fingers at all- I bowled one over got hit for a boundary off a short ball, threw a beamer over the head of the batsman, and in between those, bowled one that took the topedge of the RHB and curled to point where the fielder didnt even get into position. 1-0-8-0 it read. And I didnt bowl in the match again. It was a flat wicket and they piled on 260 runs in their 45 overs. We were giving it a good fight 13 overs 71/2 when I was given caught behind when I was nowhere near the ball.(This umpire atleast had the decency to apologise to me after the game was over that he had made a mistake - apparently the ball was also a no-ball which he missed) That triggered a mini collapse and we went to 85/5 off 17 and they just strangled us out for 160 odd runs.

So that is the end of season here - except for a Big ten college cricket 20-20.
I haven't yet decided if I should play in that -It's going to be held next week and I might get to bowl 4 spells (optimistically speaking) - College teams are expected to be at a slightly lower level compared to the ones we have been facing so far - so it might be fun cricket.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

shrek;408760 said:
Sad end to the season -
Saturday played a semifinal - ground was too short square of the wicket - 50-55 yards each .
Click to expand...

That is short, I used to carry a piece of string premeasured to the by laws rules just to check sometimes.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

macca;408796 said:
That is short, I used to carry a piece of string premeasured to the by laws rules just to check sometimes.
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I estimate boundary by looking at the 30 yard circle. I field at point for the faster bowlers and at boundary for the spinners - so I tend to get an easy enough estimate while running up and down from the boundary to the circle. I guess when you have such short boundaries - the way forward is pitch it up really full and hope that they miss the slogs across the line
 
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