Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

My hour long net session yesterday didn't go as well. In the effort to bowl at a similar pace as the other day, I mistimed my release badly quite a few times, causing them to go all over the place and have reduced turn. It seems I go one step-forward one step-back. Still I did rip a few, which brings me to a question: in your experience how much does matting turn in comparison to a standard turf wicket(i.e. not a turning dustbowl)?

I've only bowled on the matting surface down at the local nets, which seems rather conducive to spin, as I regularly rip the 45-degree leg break two feet(off a good length, measured as it goes past the stumps) or so(I missed bowling someone around their legs yesterday; the ball pitched about on the crease-line just outside leg-stump- the batsmen had stepped inside so his body was in line with leg stump- and ripped back to miss off-stump). I want to know if you have had any experience with similar, seemingly turning matting wickets and how they compared to a turf wicket.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

In my experience a turf wicket green or dead is the surface on which the ball will turn and the more grass there is the more it'll turn. The 'Dustbowl' thing in my experience is a misnomer - towards the end of the seaon here when all the grass has been worn away and it's raw but flat dirt or dusty and crumbly it's far harder to get the ball to turn unless of course there are gaping great holes or cracks. But a flat dusty wicket is virtually improssible to get the ball to turn on. The dust and looseness of the clay/bulli absorbs anything the ball is doing and kills it stone dead.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

In my experience a turf wicket green or dead is the surface on which the ball will turn and the more grass there is the more it'll turn. The 'Dustbowl' thing in my experience is a misnomer - towards the end of the seaon here when all the grass has been worn away and it's raw but flat dirt or dusty and crumbly it's far harder to get the ball to turn unless of course there are gaping great holes or cracks. But a flat dusty wicket is virtually improssible to get the ball to turn on. The dust and looseness of the clay/bulli absorbs anything the ball is doing and kills it stone dead.

i think it depends on the ground underneath as well. on international pitches i think you can draw fairly direct comparisons. but on club pitches a dustbowl at one ground might turn huge, but a dustbowl at another might do nothing.

for leg spin im convinced that a hard pitch is better (i much prefer bowling on concrete nets over wood, with as little carpet as possible), and then on top of a hard wicket a cracked and dry pitch is always going to do more than a clean grassy one.

dust is circumstantial - if the pitch is hard and dry then there will always be dust, but ultimately it will be a good turner. if the dust is because the pitch is soft and breaking up then it will take energy off the ball and reduce grip as well. i think this is what youre describing. whenever you see international pitches turning huge you tend to see the ball break through the surface as it hits. if the surface is already broken then it doesnt grip, it just dies. if the surface is hard and the ball breaks through it then thats when you get maximum turn.

however the club i play for has an extremely hard square, its like concrete. so if its dusty it tends to be dry and cracked as well. i dont like bowling on green pitches there though as the ball skids through, although ive only done so once so its not a particularly fair comparison at present.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I am with Jim on this. I only ever tried on concrete/asphalt, and artificial turf, the type they play 5/6 a side on. On the former you get great bounce that amplifies turn. On artificial turf, the ball barely bounces and so kills most of the turn off the pitch, the advantage being you can get the ball straighter with more chances of LBW or bowled. As regards grass, dry or green I would have no idea. I suspect though that on green surfaces you would get little grip, while if it is dry and hard, there should be bounce that could accentuate turn off the pitch. Having said all this, I find it much more pleasant bowling on concrete/asphalt even though the bounce eliminates the lbw and bowled from the equation with the stock delivery unless you pitch it under their noses.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Having said all this, I find it much more pleasant bowling on concrete/asphalt even though the bounce eliminates the lbw and bowled from the equation with the stock delivery unless you pitch it under their noses.

or bowl a slider or a flipper, or sometimes even just take flight off the ball. concrete pitches with a single layer of thin matting are my favourite surface. the matting is very smooth at the local nets i practice at in summer so turn isnt so easy to come by. but when you land it on the seam it rips, but also bounces very high. its the kind of pitch where you could easily hit a batsman in the face with an overspun leg break if he tries to play forwards.

ive managed to hit a younger batsman in the helmet grille with an overspun leg break at my club nets, which arent particularly helpful to bounce. he was trying to drive me as well lol. in matches, against foolish players that neglect to wear (or even own) a helmet, having such a tactic could probably get you a wicket. theyll either fall into the stumps, or throw a glove at the ball. it also means you have a leg spinners equivalent of a pace bowlers "bouncer" a few snarled glares and some intimidating words and you could really get under their skin lol. my height assists (or sometimes hinders) me a lot in bounce, im about 6'2" ish which macca said a while back is very tall by traditional leg spinner standards.

 

[Legspin is my life]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi frnds
my bowling got worse not with the line and length but the turn
its just not producing a legbreak either it bounces and goes straight or a googly

this is the second time i am getting this topspinner/googly syndrome
my coach tells me i am turn my wrist a lot but i feel like i bowl the normal way but still its a top spinner i jus tried to bowl 3-6 googlies after a long time and thats it i got the syndrome

my coach told me to stop bowling googlies but i cant even if i want to
i even tried to bowl with the straight hand traffic policeman pose facing the batsman as told by someblokecalleddave but still a top spin or googly i just cant see wat to do i know i am making the mistake but how to correct it

will i ever be able to master googly, topspin & legbreak with this type of problem

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi frnds
my bowling got worse not with the line and length but the turn
its just not producing a legbreak either it bounces and goes straight or a googly

this is the second time i am getting this topspinner/googly syndrome
my coach tells me i am turn my wrist a lot but i feel like i bowl the normal way but still its a top spinner i jus tried to bowl 3-6 googlies after a long time and thats it i got the syndrome

my coach told me to stop bowling googlies but i cant even if i want to
i even tried to bowl with the straight hand traffic policeman pose facing the batsman as told by someblokecalleddave but still a top spin or googly i just cant see wat to do i know i am making the mistake but how to correct it

will i ever be able to master googly, topspin & legbreak with this type of problem

Hello mate good to see you've not given up depsite all your problems. The only thing I can suggest is turning your wrist even further round so that it feels like you're almost bowling with your hand in a karate chop kind of action. Try that and see if it works?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I've just emailing a bloke on youtube re the googly syndrome and suggested he joins us on here. Legspin is my life thinks he might have this as well so I'll post what I said to the other bloke save typing it all out again..........

Cheers bloke for the comments on my videos. I did write a reply in the comments but it didn't seem to upload but it did link to a forum and they seem to have a filter that stops you from doing that?

I had major league googly syndrome for the best part of 2 years, I played a season where almost every ball was a wrong un and no matter what I did I couldn't get the ball to go straight let alone spin away to the off-side. Terrible figures got hit everywhere. I was saved by talking to some blokes on a forum at http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t73938-5/#post386644 and it's where I write a lot of my stuff on these matters. You could also try having a look at my Wrong Un blog at Spin Bowling-Wrong Un where I've got some suggestions as to how to rectify it..........

1. Stop bowling Googlies (Completely).
2. Get ready for this possibly taking a long time (Took me 8-9 months).
3. Go right back to basics and start to throw the ball from hand to hand across your body really trying to give it a big flick (I really need to make the video and upload it to you tube don't I)?
4. Also with the arm extended out in front of you spin the ball back in towards your chest giving it a big flick.
5. Do this all the time - use balls of all types and sizes, fruit, cubes anything just spin it and get the flick off your 3rd finger going again.
6. Now I reckon this next stage is the key to recovery. Don't intentionally bowl any more Googlies, just for the moment be content to bowl the ball straight. When you practice do so with meaning, don't allow yourself to be distracted and focus 100% on bowling the ball straight with the palm of your hand and the under-side of your wrist facing the batsman on release. I found this incredibly difficult when I started out because all my muscle memory wanted to do was upturn the wrist anti-clockwise and dip the shoulder in order to bowl the googly. You have to be fully focused on not letting this happen.
7. Bowl straight balls for as long as it takes to get them straight, it may feel like you're almost bowling with your wrist turned so that you're almost bowling with a Karate chop action - if this works in order to get the ball straight bowl like it.
8. Bowling the straight ball (I did all this without cocking my wrist at the start) try and get the ball to leave the hand off the 3rd and 4th finger and hopefully this will start to produce a small leg break.
9. Bowl like that for a few weeks maybe even months until you feel *relatively comfortable. In the meantime you've been flicking the ball all the time from hand to hand.
10. Introduce the cocked wrist and unfurl the cocked wrist at the last second releasing the ball with the hand in the 'Traffic cop pose' palm and under-wrist facing the bat. You should then start to get the Leg break back.
11. Then start to work on the big flick.

It took me about 8 months to put it right - I stopped bowling all the variations and just focussed on simply trying to bowl straight. Clarrie Grimmett or Bob Woolmer have said before that it's far more natural to bowl in the manner of the googlie,but in learning the Leg Break you train your body and brain to throw the ball in that totally un-natural manner hence the reason it's difficult to do Leg Breaks. It then follows that many people struggle to add the googly to their repetoire and if you really go at it trying to learn the googly you lose the Leg Break. I don't know if this happened to you but when I sussed I had the googly I was well chuffed and lived with the fact that there seemed to be a 'Temporary' loss of my leg break and was happy to keep bowling the googly. I think then your brain and muscle memory soon adapt to this new action and your brain kind of gets re-wired to know and love this new 'easy' action. I kind of make a comparison with learning to drive a car - initially it seems like the most complex thing ever but after several months of driving it comes easy that's your googly feeling. I think re-learning the leg break is akin to learning to drive your car with everything the wrong way round so it's not easy.

But in essence I think you'll start to work it out if you stop bowling everything else and focus on bowling straight. The key part of it for me then came with the changing of the wrist position and this I still have to do now. When I bowl the leg break I do so with my wrist in a position which feels like it's going through the action in a karate chop position rather that with the palm facing the bat. It maybe that's how it turns out but to me and in my brain it's virtually a karate chop. The good news is last year I took a wicket every 15 balls!

sign up to the forum - hope to see you there.

Dave

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Hello mate good to see you've not given up depsite all your problems. The only thing I can suggest is turning your wrist even further round so that it feels like you're almost bowling with your hand in a karate chop kind of action. Try that and see if it works?

To add to that: before the wrist action and release occur the front of your hand should be facing towards that batsmen, then when you release, spin it back towards yourself.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

To add to that: before the wrist action and release occur the front of your hand should be facing towards that batsmen, then when you release, spin it back towards yourself.

Yeah that depends whether he really has got the googly syndrome or not. When I bowl - even now, if I don't concentrate on what I'm doing - if I was to bowl as you've suggested I'd probably bowl a wrong un. I have to think to myself 'Karate chop' other-wise if I bowl what feels like a delivery with the front of my hand (palm) facing the batsman I think the reality is that somehow the wrist goes over and releases to produce a wrong un. So if anyone isn't getting anywhere near producing a leg break I reckon it's worth trying it so that it feels like you're doing this karate chop action. It's what I did and it is what works for me.

You're not wrong with what you're saying - if you've not got the googly syndrome - what you're saying should work. But if you've got the GS your brains screwed and it may take drastic action to put things right?

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah that depends whether he really has got the googly syndrome or not. When I bowl - even now, if I don't concentrate on what I'm doing - if I was to bowl as you've suggested I'd probably bowl a wrong un. I have to think to myself 'Karate chop' other-wise if I bowl what feels like a delivery with the front of my hand (palm) facing the batsman I think the reality is that somehow the wrist goes over and releases to produce a wrong un. So if anyone isn't getting anywhere near producing a leg break I reckon it's worth trying it so that it feels like you're doing this karate chop action. It's what I did and it is what works for me.

You're not wrong with what you're saying - if you've not got the googly syndrome - what you're saying should work. But if you've got the GS your brains screwed and it may take drastic action to put things right?

Well, I added another way of explaining in case he may have had trouble with getting the sense of what was meant be the karate chop action, as it is was a bit unclear from what was written, well, at least to me. The wrist action finishes in a position that does look like it is about to do a karate chop, but the actual wrist action itself effective goes the opposite way to what a karate chop would.

Sure, that could be the case, but then it might not be as serious. I effectively couldn't bowl a reliable leg-break(the occasional one would turn a bit, but they were mostly overspin) until I heard "spin it back towards yourself"; and as soon as I did I started getting reliable turn, which is also why I felt it was worth mentioning.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

another point to add which i think might be useful, is to think tall and stay upright! if you dont bend and lean into the delivery then its incredibly hard to drop the shoulder enough for a googly. and if you bowl the googly wrist action without dropping the shoulder it ends up as a big leg break. unless youve got Murali's double jointed arm.

i have the exact opposite. my attempted googlies become leg breaks. and whilst i dont have a conventional wrong'un, theres no way id swap my "leg break syndrome" for the other way around lol.

Dave - you need to get one of those slow motion cameras you were looking at and break down your wrong'un action in slow motion. then do the same for a normal leg break. it needs someone who can bowl both deliveries well to do it. then you can clearly illustrate the differences in the actions. i think the hardest part of overcoming googly syndrome for most people would be identifying what they are doing differently. its hard to do that for yourself because however you picture yourself when bowling, its guaranteed that you look nothing like how you imagine lol. but if youve got videos showing the differences, and you can then video yourself (or have a coach/team mate/friend/etc observe you and compare to the videos) it should be very easy to identify the problems and correct them.

we live in modern times, and i believe everyone should make use of the available technology, even amateurs. before the internet how hard must it have been to learn leg spin? youd have been entirely dependant on your club coach and fellow players, and the occasional TV feature or training video on it. now we have the internet, and youtube, and its infinitely easier to learn the basics. its also easier to learn tactics. video cameras are incredibly cheap and commonly available, and computer software means even a normal camera can be slowed down into a crude slow motion sequence. i know some people say its dangerous to over analyse your action (particularly old timers who never had the technology available), especially if you dont know what needs to change to improve it. but i think learning how to improve is a key part to bowler development. unintelligent bowlers are rarely any good in the long term. in order to progress you need to have a full understanding of what you do and why you do it, you cant always rely on coaches (listen to interviews from any of the top international bowlers when talking about their technique, and they all have an immense knowledge of the mechanics and technique of their bowling), and trial and error is a valid learning tool, so long as you figure out what is right eventually. armed with a camcorder almost anything is possible. if it wasnt for my slow motion videos i wouldnt be anywhere near where i am now. which lets be practical still isnt very far, im probably an average sunday friendly club leg spinner at present. but ive only been bowling leg spin for 8 months, and this season will be my first full one from pre-season through to the end, so we will see where im at by september. i plan to use video analysis at almost every individual net session (e.g. not against batsmen) from here on out though. without a leg spin coach observing you regularly, then if you are teaching yourself without some kind of visual aid you are learning blind.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Well, I added another way of explaining in case he may have had trouble with getting the sense of what was meant be the karate chop action, as it is was a bit unclear from what was written, well, at least to me. The wrist action finishes in a position that does look like it is about to do a karate chop, but the actual wrist action itself effective goes the opposite way to what a karate chop would.

I am with you on this. The karate chop as i understand it is like chopping a piece of wood with an axe. This would be the finishing position of an off spin delivery as i understand it. Alternately it may mean I am not understanding what dave is saying linguistically. I think a moving image can explain this, but to me it seems the wrong way of bowling the leg break.
Today went down to have a bowl, very windy with wind coming from extra cover region. A football match was going on next to me. Felt very inhibited by people staring as though they had seen a martian. Packed it up after 30 mins as it was rather pointless

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I am with you on this. The karate chop as i understand it is like chopping a piece of wood with an axe. This would be the finishing position of an off spin delivery as i understand it. Alternately it may mean I am not understanding what dave is saying linguistically. I think a moving image can explain this, but to me it seems the wrong way of bowling the leg break.
Today went down to have a bowl, very windy with wind coming from extra cover region. A football match was going on next to me. Felt very inhibited by people staring as though they had seen a martian. Packed it up after 30 mins as it was rather pointless

hes saying to bowl it as if you are bowling a slider. because whatever you picture in your head, youre bowling further round the loop towards the googly than you think you are. so if you aim to bowl a stock leg break then you bowl a googly or a topper. thus if you aim to spin it backwards you should, in theory, end up bowling a leg break. you just turn your action 90 degrees further than you should. or at least thats whats in your head. what you actually do will be different.

 

[Legspin is my life]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi i understood thanx to edge of willow how to bowl with a karate action
but i saw terry jenner and shane warne videos on youtube they tell that when u bowl with the thumb pointing towards the batsman like the karate action u bowl an overspinner and u can bowl legbreak only when the back of your hand is facing u

i didnt wat does spinning back to u mean

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I for one find it very difficult to wrench my shoulder round to bowl a googly, I find it really jars my shoulder. To overcome it as Jim says slow motion helps, but i think what macca says about bowling to a wall, and noticing the seam helps in teaching you what to do.

About slow mo software jim, I have an old sony DCR TRV340E camcorder. On moving houses 5 years ago i lost the cd with drivers and other software. Do you know of any way to get them. I tried over the net but the model is about 10 years old. And what software do you use to slow it down, something like Pixela? By the way I am semi illiterate when it comes to software and gizmos unfortunately. I know it is a bit off topic, but with you and dave, I may be able to put it to better use.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hes saying to bowl it as if you are bowling a slider. because whatever you picture in your head, youre bowling further round the loop towards the googly than you think you are. so if you aim to bowl a stock leg break then you bowl a googly or a topper. thus if you aim to spin it backwards you should, in theory, end up bowling a leg break. you just turn your action 90 degrees further than you should. or at least thats whats in your head. what you actually do will be different.

In that case it makes sense, as I was always confused with the K chop analogy.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dave - you need to get one of those slow motion cameras you were looking at and break down your wrong'un action in slow motion. then do the same for a normal leg break. it needs someone who can bowl both deliveries well to do it. then you can clearly illustrate the differences in the actions. i think the hardest part of overcoming googly syndrome for most people would be identifying what they are doing differently. its hard to do that for yourself because however you picture yourself when bowling, its guaranteed that you look nothing like how you imagine lol. but if youve got videos showing the differences, and you can then video yourself (or have a coach/team mate/friend/etc observe you and compare to the videos) it should be very easy to identify the problems and correct them.

we live in modern times, and i believe everyone should make use of the available technology, even amateurs. before the internet how hard must it have been to learn leg spin? youd have been entirely dependant on your club coach and fellow players, and the occasional TV feature or training video on it. now we have the internet, and youtube, and its infinitely easier to learn the basics. its also easier to learn tactics. video cameras are incredibly cheap and commonly available, and computer software means even a normal camera can be slowed down into a crude slow motion sequence. i know some people say its dangerous to over analyse your action (particularly old timers who never had the technology available), especially if you dont know what needs to change to improve it. but i think learning how to improve is a key part to bowler development. unintelligent bowlers are rarely any good in the long term. in order to progress you need to have a full understanding of what you do and why you do it, you cant always rely on coaches (listen to interviews from any of the top international bowlers when talking about their technique, and they all have an immense knowledge of the mechanics and technique of their bowling), and trial and error is a valid learning tool, so long as you figure out what is right eventually. armed with a camcorder almost anything is possible. if it wasnt for my slow motion videos i wouldnt be anywhere near where i am now. which lets be practical still isnt very far, im probably an average sunday friendly club leg spinner at present. but ive only been bowling leg spin for 8 months, and this season will be my first full one from pre-season through to the end, so we will see where im at by september. i plan to use video analysis at almost every individual net session (e.g. not against batsmen) from here on out though. without a leg spin coach observing you regularly, then if you are teaching yourself without some kind of visual aid you are learning blind.

Yeah - I'm on the verge - but holding back because they just keep going down in price they're out there at the minute for hundred and twenty quid. Additionally I wont be doing any filming till around April so I can hold on till then, but I'm also worrying about this plantar faciitis situation. I'm concerned at some point I might looking at having to stop bowling and doing any sport in order that it clears up and repairs itself, so again if that happens I wont need the camera in the short term. But yeah the intention is that I do exactly as you have but I've got some equipment that may improve on your approach. I've got a big tripod and also a pole that I intend to use so that the view is the same as the views on the Mark Nicholas/Shane Warne clips on youtube (From above and behind). But yeah you're right - as I was saying before I haven't got a clue what goes on with my hand, wrist and fingers when I bowl - so it'll be fascintating to see what I really do and why I can really flick it massively with the wrong un and Top-Spinner and not the leg break.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I am with you on this. The karate chop as i understand it is like chopping a piece of wood with an axe. This would be the finishing position of an off spin delivery as i understand it. Alternately it may mean I am not understanding what dave is saying linguistically. I think a moving image can explain this, but to me it seems the wrong way of bowling the leg break.
Today went down to have a bowl, very windy with wind coming from extra cover region. A football match was going on next to me. Felt very inhibited by people staring as though they had seen a martian. Packed it up after 30 mins as it was rather pointless

The Karate chop action is how I perceive my hand is and how I think my hand position is but I reckon if I was to video it, it would be the case that my plam would be facing the bat on release. Where is if I start with the intention and perception that my hand starts off with the palm going through the action facing forwards I end up bowling Wrong Uns - remember I've had the googly syndrome so my brain is screwed with regards what is actually happening. I really believe that the wrong un/googly is a far more natural way to bowl and if anyone was to start with the wrong un - learn it and perfect it and then look to learn the Leg Break it would be extremely hard. Part of the reason learning to bowl leg breaks is so hard is that it is so wholly un-natural but at least without the knowledge of the googly you start with your hand and wrist in a helpful state of wrist position virginity. Bowling the googly is like being polygamous - it makes sense and it comes easy and feels like the right thing if that's how you've been introduced to wrist spin, then converting to leg breaks is like being asked to be monogamous - it feels wholly un-natural and like you're forcing your whole being to do something that feels utterly wrong. Ignorance is bliss - is the way to go - have no knowledge of the googly settle down to your polygamy with the Leg Break, learn to love the way with one partner - love your one partner and be very wary of the darkside - (the googly) because too much of it will drag you down and destroy your relationship with your one true love (Leg Break). Sorry for the crap analogiy!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I for one find it very difficult to wrench my shoulder round to bowl a googly, I find it really jars my shoulder. To overcome it as Jim says slow motion helps, but i think what macca says about bowling to a wall, and noticing the seam helps in teaching you what to do.

About slow mo software jim, I have an old Panasonic DCR TRV340E camcorder. On moving houses 5 years ago i lost the cd with drivers and other software. Do you know of any way to get them. I tried over the net but the model is about 10 years old. And what software do you use to slow it down, something like Pixela? By the way I am semi illiterate when it comes to software and gizmos unfortunately. I know it is a bit off topic, but with you and dave, I may be able to put it to better use.

Yeah my shoulder went through months of pain learning the wrong un, the flick I get with the wrong un used to almost dislocate my shoulder.