Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Thanks guys,

Going to give that wall thing a big go over the winter and im sure I will be ragging them square come april 2010?! (I can but hope!)

One game to guy for 2009 next weekend I will try and chuck one in next sunday and see how it goes! will keep you informed
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

ive just uploaded the videos. it turns out that the unprocessed versions straight off the camera are the highest quality. Sony files record in .mt2s format which none of the video editing software ive got can handle. so i was having to convert the video twice, and the quality was all getting lost along the way. ive since found a better way of resizing and editing the videos without converting them, and then the Sony software converts them to mpeg to stick on YouTube.

heres the only angle that came out clearly, the other angles were all too close and the focus is rubbish. one is a leg break and one is a flipper...

YouTube - 20090919135436

YouTube - 20090919135446

youll notice that at 1/4 speed the video is pretty much useless for analysing the action. you have to manually watch it frame by frame to do any analysis, which the included Sony software can do to the raw video.

P.S. watch the amount of flex in my forearm on the flipper. considering there is no joint midway up the forearm and its solid bone its disturbing how much force gets transferred through it and how much movement there is!! this isnt the best video to demonstrate it, one i shot the other week showed it better, there was almost a shockwave rippling up the arm. its no wonder that kids are advised not to attempt the flipper for risk of damaging their arms.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim that's good - but I want to see both actions in an actual bowling delivery cos I'm sure loads of unexpected stuff goes on up there above our heads! Are these MPEG's because if so I can send you a link to a little free program that'll allow you to edit the footage and slow it down far more so we can really see what's going on. I'll dig it out and post up the link.

here it is

Get VirtualDub. http://www.virtualdub.org
Open your video file in virtualdub. Click on audio. Click no audio (this is needed, since if the video plays in slow motion, the duration of the audio won’t match). Then click video. Click direct stream copy (so the conversion is lossless). Then click video. Click frame rate. Under 'source rate adjustment' select the 'change to [blank] frames per second' bullet and type in a frame rate (smaller than the one on the line above it, obviously). Then click file, save as avi, and you’re done.

I can't remember where I heard it but over the last couple of days I either read or heard someone talking about drift. What they were saying was that in order to get your drift capabilities up to their optimum it is essential that you have a good post release arm action and follow through. The arm once it is released comes down across the body and passed the left hip in a smooth powerful action and the body is allowed to follow through in a un-restrained manner. I suppose this all adds up to an overall smooth bowling action.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;365956 said:
Jim that's good - but I want to see both actions in an actual bowling delivery cos I'm sure loads of unexpected stuff goes on up there above our heads! Are these MPEG's because if so I can send you a link to a little free program that'll allow you to edit the footage and slow it down far more so we can really see what's going on. I'll dig it out and post up the link.

here it is

Get VirtualDub. Welcome to virtualdub.org! - virtualdub.org
Open your video file in virtualdub. Click on audio. Click no audio (this is needed, since if the video plays in slow motion, the duration of the audio won’t match). Then click video. Click direct stream copy (so the conversion is lossless). Then click video. Click frame rate. Under 'source rate adjustment' select the 'change to [blank] frames per second' bullet and type in a frame rate (smaller than the one on the line above it, obviously). Then click file, save as avi, and you’re done.

I can't remember where I heard it but over the last couple of days I either read or heard someone talking about drift. What they were saying was that in order to get your drift capabilities up to their optimum it is essential that you have a good post release arm action and follow through. The arm once it is released comes down across the body and passed the left hip in a smooth powerful action and the body is allowed to follow through in a un-restrained manner. I suppose this all adds up to an overall smooth bowling action.
Click to expand...

i already use VirtualDub. the issue is that in order to use it i have to already convert the mt2s files into MPEG or AVI. its that initial conversion that messes the quality up as im editing a post-converted file. the quality seems to be higher if youre editing the original and then converting it last.

ive got Sony Vegas which allows me to edit the mt2s files directly, but its insanely complex and i cant figure it out. i tried Adobe Premiere as well but that doesnt open mt2s files, and is equally as complex as Vegas.

filming my actual delivery is the next thing i want to do, its just a question of weather, me finding some rhythm on a particular day, and then also having an assistant on hand to press the record button. ive thought it through to the point of how could i make an electrical circuit that i can trigger remotely to push an RC servo into the record button lol. so i can just hold a small circuit board with a button on it, and then trigger the recording after ive released the ball.

finally, with regards drift and what you describe - id agree and then disagree. once the ball leaves the hand then the motions afterwards have zero bearing on its behaviour (you cant control the ball when there is air between your hand and it, only when your hand is physically touching it). those motions however condition the muscle movements prior to release. so basically, if you have a strong follow through, you should impart more revolutions on the ball (tacking one on though just because you think there should be one would be counter productive, when i added my follow through i reinvented the whole action around it). more revolutions result in more drift. having a good follow through would be meaningless if you didnt produce high revs though. its all about the revolutions!! the great benefit is that more revs also means more turn, in the opposite direction to the drift. i actually think that some players with lacklustre follow throughs who still seemingly turn the ball well do so because there is so little drift that the ball does nothing but turn. they also bowl slower. so the ball grips better, and also seems to move more because it doesnt move away first. whereas when i drift the ball it might be heading for middle stump, drift outside leg stump, and then turn back past off. seemingly its only turned from middle to past off, but in reality its actually turned from outside leg to outside off. its all relative. i think this is why drift is equally as important as (or more important than?) turn. the same as bounce is as well. all things that set a leg spinner apart from an off spinner in most cases with the slightly higher revolutions a wrist spin action can produce.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;365956 said:
Jim that's good - but I want to see both actions in an actual bowling delivery cos I'm sure loads of unexpected stuff goes on up there above our heads! Are these MPEG's because if so I can send you a link to a little free program that'll allow you to edit the footage and slow it down far more so we can really see what's going on. I'll dig it out and post up the link.

here it is

Get VirtualDub. Welcome to virtualdub.org! - virtualdub.org
Open your video file in virtualdub. Click on audio. Click no audio (this is needed, since if the video plays in slow motion, the duration of the audio won’t match). Then click video. Click direct stream copy (so the conversion is lossless). Then click video. Click frame rate. Under 'source rate adjustment' select the 'change to [blank] frames per second' bullet and type in a frame rate (smaller than the one on the line above it, obviously). Then click file, save as avi, and you’re done.
Click to expand...

right, i slowed it right down so that now you can see things at a useful speed. this is at 2fps playback on a 1/4 speed recording @ 25fps. so i think that means its now at 1/50th speed. in other words, what takes a second in the video took 0.020 secs in real life! the equivalent of about a 3000fps video camera (but lacking the quality and detail).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY2MF8YmkRA

i reckon that the Sky cameras are running 1500-2000fps on the footage ive seen of Warne based on what ive now seen of my own videos slowed down. which would mean Warne generates approximately 1200-1600rpm on the ball between hands, which sounds both believable and corroborates with information ive found on the Sky Sports cameras (2000fps). im currently at 1250rpm. so in theory i generate almost as many revs as the great Warne!!

the next step is definitely to get some "dynamic" shots though, ones of me actually bowling. thats what i really want to see, how many revs i can generate in actual flight. i reckon its way more than i can between my hands, ive got so many more levers in operation. im hoping to see 2000rpm minimum.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

So that's kind of good to demonstrate your top-spinner and we can all see what's going on and where the seam is. We can see your wrist in action and you turning your hand over the top of the ball and the fingers doing their thing - to me as a Top-Spinner demo it's probably up there with the best of them on you-tube if not 'The best'. But as you say we kind of need to see it along with all the others in a delivery - I can't wait I'm gagging to see how your Leg Break looks at this speed in a real delivery. Let's see it Jim!!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yes Jim, beautiful demonstration. Great revs and perfect seam in that demonstration. As Dave says that is the hand to hand drill for the topspinner. Top drawer video. Maybe trying the big legbreak towards yourself and more importantly during the bowling will be real interesting, logistics permitting. Maybe you will give permission to dave to link them to his website together with his excellent flipper variation videos. Together you could have a first detailed leg spin website. I am liking my lips already. The icing could be provided by Macca, with his historical background on legspin. You could be thinking about a book with a DVD to boot. I will be the first to purchase one! Who needs the MCC manual with Benaud or the Wings to Fly by the ECB. They are amateurs compared to these.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

macca;365803 said:
We found a good way to correct this is against a wall. Just stand a few feet away and concentrate on finishing a legbreak with your palm facing the wall. The legbreak will spin off the wall to the left and you can catch it with your left hand. The topspinner will come straight back and a wrongun will spin right and has to be caught with the right hand. The wall never lies!
Click to expand...


I think that drill is a real pearl. Do you get different deviation of the wall with the small and large leg break and googly. I have to find a wall and get down to doing it when time permits, Hope all well at home Macca.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

sadspinner;366097 said:
Yes Jim, beautiful demonstration. Great revs and perfect seam in that demonstration. As Dave says that is the hand to hand drill for the topspinner. Top drawer video. Maybe trying the big legbreak towards yourself and more importantly during the bowling will be real interesting, logistics permitting. Maybe you will give permission to dave to link them to his website together with his excellent flipper variation videos. Together you could have a first detailed leg spin website. I am liking my lips already. The icing could be provided by Macca, with his historical background on legspin. You could be thinking about a book with a DVD to boot. I will be the first to purchase one! Who needs the MCC manual with Benaud or the Wings to Fly by the ECB. They are amateurs compared to these.
Click to expand...

I've gotta say that with regards to Macca's comments here, the combination of all three efforts would indeed produce without any doubt in my mind the most comprehensive resource possibly anywhere. I think we'd all agree that as the inventor of the Flipper Grimmetts early books without any doubt describe the Flipper in terms (until now) that were never repeated again by any of his contempories. Led by Macca it seems that we've dug these variations out of their graves and into the 21st century and with the potential of technology we're now on the verge of describing and demonstrating them in ways that not even the professionals it seems have realised! Like you Macca I'm licking my lips in anticipation.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i was watching South Africa vs Sri Lanka today, particularly watching Ajantha Mendis bowling. i think ive finally got him figured out. ive watched him maybe 10 times now, and seen him take loads of wickets, probably 15-20. and ive never figured out how on earth he causes top batsmen such huge problems. today was a great example...

first ball of his spell, he clean bowled Graeme Smith. easily in the top 5 batsmen of current times, and not a poor player of spin either. the fact it was the first ball was very telling though. Smith played for an off break, the ball was actually a leg break. but because Mendis uses the Iverson-Gleeson method for his leg break it probably looked very much like a conventional off break out of the hand!! the fact that it was the first ball is what undid Smith. it brushed his inside edge and hit his stumps. the Hawkeye replay showed the actual path, and the deviation. it turned about 8-12" total.

Mendis bowls fairly flat, he doesnt seem to loft his flight, most of the time he bowls up over 50mph, sometimes nearer 60mph, and doesnt seem to use the flight. most balls go dead straight, flat trajectory, and then deviate slightly. no huge turning deliveries, just VERY subtle variations in turn. and in every direction.

and there in lies the key i think. he bowls an excellent length near enough every ball. not too short, not too full. batsmen cant walk down the pitch or theyll be in no mans land, but the trajectory is flat so they cant rock onto the back foot. he uses his variations all the time, to the extent that he doesnt seem to have a stock ball. the variations are excellently disguised. and every delivery is bowled at the stumps, he forces players to hit every ball. and combined with the above this is what gets him so many wickets.

he got 2 guys bowled with leg breaks, Smith touched the edge but didnt play on, it was going on anyway. Duminy made the same mistake as Smith, but he played on from outside the stumps. Kallis got caught at mid off iirc from a Googly (of sorts, i think its more like a Doosra).

and to top it all off, the commentators tried to explain his Carrom ball and made a real hash of it. they showed his Iverson-Gleeson leg break and claimed it was the Carrom ball, one of the guys was even talking about Gleeson whilst explaining it. he really is the "mystery spinner". i cant wait to see him playing English domestic cricket for Hampshire next season, i might have to go along to a game.

its got me wondering though - are giant Warne-esque leg breaks really the way to take the most wickets? or would someone with the full repertoire of flipper variations be a more formidable wicket taker? youd have much more control of the bounce (a top spinner like Anil Kumble would always have issues with the ball clearing the top of the stumps, even if they maintained a line at the stumps like Mendis) but with most of the benefits of conventional wrist spin. youd be quite like Mendis, but with more revolutions on the ball to bring flight and turn into the equation when you wanted to. its something to ponder. you can literally create every type of turn with the flipper action - leg break, googly, top spinning leg break, top spinning off break, and backspun variations of both, top spinner and back spinner. and you can create all of them with equal revolutions on the ball far more easily than with conventional wrist spin deliveries.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

sadspinner;366097 said:
Yes Jim, beautiful demonstration. Great revs and perfect seam in that demonstration. As Dave says that is the hand to hand drill for the topspinner. Top drawer video. Maybe trying the big legbreak towards yourself and more importantly during the bowling will be real interesting, logistics permitting. Maybe you will give permission to dave to link them to his website together with his excellent flipper variation videos. Together you could have a first detailed leg spin website. I am liking my lips already. The icing could be provided by Macca, with his historical background on legspin. You could be thinking about a book with a DVD to boot. I will be the first to purchase one! Who needs the MCC manual with Benaud or the Wings to Fly by the ECB. They are amateurs compared to these.
Click to expand...

thanks for the comments. i think that is more like my stock leg break though, the body isnt, but the arm and wrist position. when i deliver the leg break my arm is essentially facing forwards, the wrist is straight, and this gives the 45 degree overspun leg break. the top spinner my wrist is cocked away, to practice that between hands id be spinning the ball away from my body rather than across it. and back towards me is more like the slider, or a big leg break (backspun).

either way, its all good practice, if for nothing else than building up the necessary muscles in the same way that they are used in actually playing cricket, and also in conditioning the muscle "memory". both fairly important aspects according to most cricket coaches and players.

i quite like the idea of the video resource though. Dave has already got it mostly covered, adding some detailed slow motion videos on top of the existing content could definitely be the finishing touch. whilst it would be nice to believe that an amateur community putting far more than a sensible amount of thought into over-analysing their skills could produce an actual saleable coaching resource, i think it usually requires the credibility of a distinguished first class career to achieve such a thing.

im waiting for Shane Warne to rack up some gambling debts, hes playing an awful lot of big money poker lately. then in desperation create the ultimate leg spin coaching book and DVD. his insights are invaluable, every time i hear him talk about cricket i learn something about bowling and the way his mind worked. Grimmett was the pioneer, but Warne put the methods to use in the modern game. im not sure if he will ever do it though, he doesnt really seem to have any aspirations to fully pass on his knowledge, but at the same time hes only just retired really, and i expect he probably wants a break from cricket for a while. imagine if Warne was to document his skills in the same way that we do...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim I challenge you to find something on the internet that is free to use or better still in print anything that looks at these deliveries in the kind of detail that we do. The only thing that comes near it as far as I can make out is the David Freedman video coaching which you have to pay for. If the world is waiting for Warne to start producing coaching videos and books I think we may have some time to wait yet and besides how big is the audience, how marketable is it when it is such a niche market?

A book is a fairly tall order but a free to use website is attainable. I also believe a small print run book might have potential too as there's a gap in the market.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;366115 said:
Jim I challenge you to find something on the internet that is free to use or better still in print anything that looks at these deliveries in the kind of detail that we do. The only thing that comes near it as far as I can make out is the David Freedman video coaching which you have to pay for. If the world is waiting for Warne to start producing coaching videos and books I think we may have some time to wait yet and besides how big is the audience, how marketable is it when it is such a niche market?

A book is a fairly tall order but a free to use website is attainable. I also believe a small print run book might have potential too as there's a gap in the market.
Click to expand...

i fully agree, i doubt there is anything else on the web as detailed or as comprehensive as our discussions, and of course your blog. as a free resource i think it could definitely be the best information available in any format. even Philpotts book (if borrowed from a library for free) doesnt go into the same kind of depth, for example its very difficult to visualise his "round the loop" method without already knowing roughly what it relates to. for a complete beginner, his book would be of almost no use IMO. and a group of leg spinners sharing real world experience can hold more collective wisdom. thats why this thread (and its predecessor) are so awesome :D
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

hey guys im new on here. from australia and enjoy my legspin bowling and have found this blog very helpful. look forward to joining into the discussions in the near future
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i figured out how to make a remote trigger for my camcorder today :D its a door lock solenoid stolen off my car wired up to a footswitch with a REALLY long cable. so i can bowl my delivery, then stamp on the footswitch, activating the solenoid that will be gaffa taped to a bracket on the tripod so it pushes on the record button, and this will then activate the slow motion recording on the camera. this will capture the 3 seconds of video prior to the button press. so if i hit the button after the ball passes the stumps, it should in theory capture just about everything from the beginning of my action through the full delivery (maybe missing the run up out). il have to use some trial and error to figure it out.

so if the weather is fine tomorrow afternoon il get some slow-mo videos of my bowling!! at last.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;366272 said:
Top work mate! Can't wait to see the results.
Click to expand...

gutted! i showed up at the local cricket club (not the club i play for) to use their derelict nets where i normally practice. i get halfway across the field before i realise that theyve taken the nets down for winter!!!! the frame is still there, but the net is long gone. this would be fine if i had something to stop the balls from disappearing into the farmers field behind the stumps, but i wasnt really prepared for that.

the most annoying thing is that its 25°C and glorious sunshine today, perfect for filming in slow motion with really high light levels. the chances of another day like today where ive got the afternoon spare at the end of September cant be too high.

its practice night at my club tonight, where im fairly sure the nets will be staying up all year round (i hope so! i plan to practice outside all winter when the weather permits). so im going to have to go down there early whilst its still light enough to get some video and hope it works out. the light levels are so important, if its too dark it just wont work at all. also there will be people around so il probably get the annoying "what are you doing?" questions and the strange looks. the local club is in the middle of nowhere, you get an occasional dog walker or horse rider and thats it.

oh well, heres to hoping it doesnt get dark too early. the last resort is a local cricket centre where theyve got full indoor net facilities, assuming id be allowed to film there. at £20/hour though id rather not lol. il either have some cool slow motion videos online tonight/tomorrow or i wont...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

right, ive got a load of video. im going to make a new thread once ive had a chance to sort all the videos out, and il link to it in this thread. it saves writing a load of massive posts on this thread. it might not be up until tomorrow though, its going to take a lot of time to process all these videos, i think there are 60 in total lol.
 
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