Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Contributors
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I've just done a review of the season on my main blog at Wrist Spin Bowling looking at what I intended to do in the way of goals and acheivements and looking at it I surpassed all my goals massively with my figures looking like this -
54-12-267-21
Average 12.71
RPO 4.86
Strike Rate 15.69
Best Bowling 4-27

In comparison with my first full year 2008 it's an enormous improvement and when I first set my targets they were quite modest. Thinking about the figures and comparing them with the other spinners it looks as though that given more opportunities to play cricket I'd potentially be snapping at the heels of the clubs best spinner Neil Samwell. But I also acknowledge that with bowling more overs there's the potential to have more bad games and these figures may not be so good. But then with more experience wouldn't there also be a counter argument that my bowling might improve?

Statistically as a percentage I bowl more maidens than anyone else with the exception of one other person and I've got the 2nd best Strike rate in the team as well. Additionally I step up to the plate and bowl as an opener whereas the bloke with the highest average bowls further down the order at the Bunnies.

Today I had an exceptionally productive practice session probably bowling better than I have ever done before. I've changed my approach to my bowling in that I've now given up on all the experimental variations and now just focus on my 4 main deliveries and this seems to already being a very productive move. Evaluating todays performance and looking at ways to improve again for next year at the same kind of rate the only thing that I can think of that will make a big difference is my understanding of bowling length.

On many ocassions I've commented on the abilities of some of the more experienced and older bowlers in my team and oppositions team. The general observation is that they don't bowl fast or turn the ball all they seem to do that seems to cause so many problems and gets them wickets is the bowling of a good length. So after all this waffle the basic question I need to ask is - what's the score with bowling a good length?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Heading off in an hour to a game with my son. He played school cricket yesterday and got some wickets. I was worried about him overpitching but he bowled 4 overs at my keeping last night and he was spot on so if he bowls anything like last night today, if he gets a chance, he should do ok.
Let you know how he went in about 6 hours.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;373121 said:
I've just done a review of the season on my main blog at Wrist Spin Bowling looking at what I intended to do in the way of goals and acheivements and looking at it I surpassed all my goals massively with my figures looking like this -
54-12-267-21
Average 12.71
RPO 4.86
Strike Rate 15.69
Best Bowling 4-27

In comparison with my first full year 2008 it's an enormous improvement and when I first set my targets they were quite modest. Thinking about the figures and comparing them with the other spinners it looks as though that given more opportunities to play cricket I'd potentially be snapping at the heels of the clubs best spinner Neil Samwell. But I also acknowledge that with bowling more overs there's the potential to have more bad games and these figures may not be so good. But then with more experience wouldn't there also be a counter argument that my bowling might improve?

Statistically as a percentage I bowl more maidens than anyone else with the exception of one other person and I've got the 2nd best Strike rate in the team as well. Additionally I step up to the plate and bowl as an opener whereas the bloke with the highest average bowls further down the order at the Bunnies.

Today I had an exceptionally productive practice session probably bowling better than I have ever done before. I've changed my approach to my bowling in that I've now given up on all the experimental variations and now just focus on my 4 main deliveries and this seems to already being a very productive move. Evaluating todays performance and looking at ways to improve again for next year at the same kind of rate the only thing that I can think of that will make a big difference is my understanding of bowling length.

On many ocassions I've commented on the abilities of some of the more experienced and older bowlers in my team and oppositions team. The general observation is that they don't bowl fast or turn the ball all they seem to do that seems to cause so many problems and gets them wickets is the bowling of a good length. So after all this waffle the basic question I need to ask is - what's the score with bowling a good length?
Click to expand...

Remember when your season started ? you were worried you might not even get a game let alone a bowl. And i was telling you " oh well legspin dont work in uk anyway, no bounce etc " next thing you got your chance and just grabbed a bag every week. Someone told you crap bowling gets wickets but once you started getting the amount and strike rate you had it cant be classified crap bowling even if it is, if you know what i mean.
on a good length for legspin remember grimmett reckons roughly 3 yards in front of batsman well if you measure that it is pretty short really.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Young bloke went well with the ball he only got the one wicket off his 4 overs not sure of the runs yet but was very unlucky not to have more. Overpitched a couple of times but nothing short at all. Only bowler in side not to bowl a wide.
He got the extra overs again today so he has impressed the coach. Everyone is getting a couple of overs plus the 12th man then the extra overs to make 30 are divied up amongst the better bowlers.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hey Guys,

Been a while since I talked about how my "learn to bowl leg spin in one winter" project was going........ mainly because it hasn't been going that well. I thought I'd fill you in again, some questions at the bottom also.

I had a good spell about 1 1/2 weeks ago where, for a few days, I got some radical improvement in accuracy. That was the time of my last, excited, posts..... but for some inexplicable reason I lost whatever I had for a good 7 or so days...... it was truly PANTS for about a week.

I think I figured out what it was...... I have two practice places, over the park at work (5x50min sessions during the week) and now my back garden (2x2hr sessions on w/ends). In the garden I am very cramped for space, I literally have my back to the wall and can only get 2 strides in before my action.

I noticed I am way more accurate in the garden...... and I think it's because with the greater room at the park my run-up (walk-up ?) is faster, and this then pushes my arm into a much faster motion than when I am in the garden and happy-ish with my accuracy. (and lets be clear....early days....at my best I am still not very accurate).

I find that if my left arm comes down, and almost literally "drags" my right arm over.......rather than me forcing my right arm over with my upper arm muscles....... thats when I can hit the spot. Over the park I tend to "force" my right arm over faster, and couldn't stop myself doing it. Eventually, I traced that back to the faster run/walk-up.... the tempo of which would "force" me to "pull" the arm over harder, rather than letting it "roll" over.

I also had some "hand pain" for a while concerning my 3rd knuckle and the muscle leading back from there tomy wrist. I must have tweaked it especially hard at some point because it was sore for a while, but this is something that has dissipated and largely gone away now. However, it forced me to try out flippers a lot more over the week..... and I got some truly epic ones out due to a strong front on breeze over the park on about 3 days. I am not getting lots of backspin, but with the breeze to assist I got a few great "gravity defying" ones that came out looking like they'd be 5 yards short of the batsman..... but just went like little guided missiles to a full length at the base of middle.

I also experimented with a few off-spinning flippers..... but found these way too difficult to control, and with the uneveness of the surface I am using it is always conjecture whether they "actually" spun in (when they did) or whether they just hit a lump and bounced in.

I think, for my first season at least, I am going to be a very slow, slow bowler. And I think, from the balls I am best able to get out, my repotoire is going to be limited to leggies, big-backspinning-leggies, toppers and underspun-flippers..... with there being doubts as to whether I can get the flipper accurate enough in time (at the moment it's roughly 20% right where I want them, 30% reasonably accurate, 50% "could go anywhere"). I bowled a fair few that would have been helmet beaners.

It's just more plugging away with me now..... adding more and more spin...... getting more and more accurate..... and perhaps later speeding up the run-up/action a bit. I just want to plug away getting marg/inally better each week.

One thing I have noticed....... I'd say half or more of my "baddest" balls end up being full tosses a foot or two outside leg. If a ball goes bad, thats pretty much where it ends up. Obviously I am releasing too early on these, and this may improve in time...... but it prompts a couple of questions for now....

1) Assuming this continues, and my bad balls continue to go wide of leg and pitch on the crease, how would a batsman at the sunday league of skill that I am likely to be bowling too play that ball ? If he gets hold of it where would that be likely to go ? And what fielder should I get put out there to stop runs being lost there if I continue putting bad balls in that spot ?

2) Is there something I can do with my action (apart from releasing it at the right time, obviously) to get early releases to go straight. All those balls wouldn't be too bad a ball at the sunday league level (or so I'm told) if they are on the stumps (I'm working on daves advice that a middle stump full toss is not that bad a ball on this level). Is there something I can perhaps work on with my stance, or the "round the back" bit of my arm action that would help ensure even if it comes out early, that it goes out straighter ?

I'm thinking someone might say something like "are you falling over to the left in your delivery stride ?" or "is your arm coming over straight enough ?".

I've learnt (with the problem I had above all week) that it often takes me a good while to figure out the source of the problem on my own (as it took me 7 days to figure out my run-in wasn't matching my arm speed, and so was throwing the action out of kilter). I'm wondering if I can short circuit this with a bit of advice.

Oh..... and......

3) How slow/short a runup is "too slow". I am presently starting only a yard behind the wicket and literally just coming in walking pace. As I also noted, my arm is pretty slow too. So, again at the sunday league level, should I be thinking "I have to get this faster now" or "this is something I can work on later, I could do a season real slow". Obviously, a bit faster and with more energy is better...... but is this of "primary" importance, or should it be left until I am, say, much more accurate, and adding more spin. A kind of "secondary" level thing to work on once the "primaries" are up to snuff ?

I notice you are all doing well, and your discussion of accuracy and great figures are making me a bit jealous....... but I will get there in the end....... and, wow, good figures Dave.

As I recall (I could have this wrong) you've been playing in the sunday league. Think you will be playing sundays next season ? Or be moving on to your sides 1st/2nd/3rd eleven ? From what you are saying of your bowling figures, I would have figured you a shoe in for the 2nd team. Will you be moving up ?

And thanks again guys..... this thread is obviously a source of good advice...... but it's also a source of motivation for me as well. It's helping me maintain a good practice schedule, by fueling my desire to be better a hell of a lot.

Yours,

TGP
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

TheGreasyPole;373182 said:
Hey Guys,


1) Assuming this continues, and my bad balls continue to go wide of leg and pitch on the crease, how would a batsman at the sunday league of skill that I am likely to be bowling too play that ball ? If he gets hold of it where would that be likely to go ? And what fielder should I get put out there to stop runs being lost there if I continue putting bad balls in that spot ?



TGP
Click to expand...
Well depending on how wide you pitch it, you could be hit anywhere from mid-on all the way back to fine leg. close to legstump the correct shot would be the on-drive but not all batsman can play it.

It is still a better ball than short outside leg stump because nearly every batsman can deal with that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

1. Assuming this continues, and my bad balls continue to go wide of leg and pitch on the crease, how would a batsman at the sunday league of skill that I am likely to be bowling too play that ball ? If he gets hold of it where would that be likely to go ? And what fielder should I get put out there to stop runs being lost there if I continue putting bad balls in that spot ?

This is almost a worse case scenario. You're not likely to get a field which includes putting blokes to stop balls there. You're more than likely going to be allocated a standard Leg Spin field - Slip, Gully, Point, Short Extra Cover, Cover, Mid off, Mid on, Mid wicket, Square Leg and either Fine Leg of Deep Sq Leg. In my own experience most bats in Sunday games are okay down the leg-side and you'll probably only have one blike in that 1/4 of the pitch which means you'll be expensive. The long and the short of it is that you'll be expected to bowl to an off-side field and therefore you've simply got to learn to bowl a half decent line and keep it out of that side of the pitch unless of course you can get it to come in on the stumps particularly well.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

2) Is there something I can do with my action (apart from releasing it at the right time, obviously) to get early releases to go straight. All those balls wouldn't be too bad a ball at the sunday league level (or so I'm told) if they are on the stumps (I'm working on daves advice that a middle stump full toss is not that bad a ball on this level). Is there something I can perhaps work on with my stance, or the "round the back" bit of my arm action that would help ensure even if it comes out early, that it goes out straighter ?

A yorker, or a fuller ball on the stumps would be a better option. Again it's difficult to grasp what it is that you're doing wrong, but you seem to be aware yourself what it is and you've just got to try different approaches in order to correct it. But it does sound like you've got a handful issues all going on at once and maybe the answer is to simplify everything and strip your bowling right down to basics? I think you've read my googly syndrome blog and you might have some idea of the hole that I was in Sept/Oct 2008.

I've got a couple of suggestions..........

1. Take a break from bowling so intensively. Don't do it for a week maybe and then see what the outcome is thereafter?
2. Maybe shorten you're bowling length in your garden by a few yards to give yourself a better run up - but then always aim to hit the base of the stumps to compensate for the shortened length?
3. This is where I'm going to commit an unholy sin on this thread. Don't spin it. Hold the ball in the correct manner across the seam 2 up 2 down and just aim to get the ball on the right line and length. You might find that it still turns off the crease if you've got your wrist facing forwards?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

3) How slow/short a runup is "too slow". I am presently starting only a yard behind the wicket and literally just coming in walking pace. As I also noted, my arm is pretty slow too. So, again at the sunday league level, should I be thinking "I have to get this faster now" or "this is something I can work on later, I could do a season real slow". Obviously, a bit faster and with more energy is better...... but is this of "primary" importance, or should it be left until I am, say, much more accurate, and adding more spin. A kind of "secondary" level thing to work on once the "primaries" are up to snuff ?

Again - this will just come naturally as you improve, the more you bowl and the smoother your action/rythmn gets, the more efficient it all becomes and the more able you'll be to increase or decrease your speed.

Have a look again at the Beau Casson YouTube - David Freedman legspin coaching video just work on one bit at a time, keep it basic and it'll come.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

With regards me playing Saturday league matches, I've been asked to play Saturdays in the league and I'll consider it. I'll see how it goes in the pre-season nets and see if they still want me to move up to league matches, but I'm not that fussed. But having said that I do get frustrated by the poor attitude of the colts in the Sunday games, so who knows? It'll be interesting to see how I do in the league as it's a different mentality.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

So far this season my kids figures are 8 overs, no maidens, 3 wickets for 34 runs. Last week i thought he only went for 16 runs but it was 2/21 runs from his 4 overs yesterday he took 1/13 from his 4 overs.
No short balls, One wide and lots of chances and near misses. Has not got a very good keeper either.
The only scoring shots have been drives from his overpitching but just like a swing bowler the legspinner should not worry if you are being driven. What you dont want is being pulled and cut or hoiked over mid-wicket that means your bowling tripe.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

macca;373137 said:
Remember when your season started ? you were worried you might not even get a game let alone a bowl. And i was telling you " oh well legspin dont work in uk anyway, no bounce etc " next thing you got your chance and just grabbed a bag every week. Someone told you crap bowling gets wickets but once you started getting the amount and strike rate you had it cant be classified crap bowling even if it is, if you know what i mean.
on a good length for legspin remember grimmett reckons roughly 3 yards in front of batsman well if you measure that it is pretty short really.
Click to expand...

Yeah you're right, I did have doubts at the start of the season and I played in that one game with a different team, but the following games it all fell into place and I've done quite well, better than I expected. Hopefully I'll do as well next season? I've just noticed that you've mentioned your son in the context of wides. Now - there's a word that was attributable to my bowling but I reckon all last season I might have bowled 5 wides, which is an incredible turn around.

Does your son worry about his figures, I know you said half way through my season when I had that bad spell against the left hander not to worry about the figures - just make sure the B******s get sent back to the sheds and your figures will fall into place which seems to have happened?

So that's a strike rate of 16 - that's no too bad. Has he missed any wickets because of the wicket keeper and what's he like at asking for LBW's?

With regards your length comment that's about where I was bowling it yesterday and where my Captain Neil tells me to bowl it, but I've been told shorter before now and confusingly if you search the internet you'll find Shane Warnes Pitch maps that show where he bowls and they're around 5 yards. The thing is he bowls 50 mph + whereas I bowl around 40mph and slightly slower and therefore need to be shorter. I reckon 4 yards as you've suggested sounds like a better option.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;373190 said:
Yeah you're right, I did have doubts at the start of the season and I played in that one game with a different team, but the following games it all fell into place and I've done quite well, better than I expected. Hopefully I'll do as well next season? I've just noticed that you've mentioned your son in the context of wides. Now - there's a word that was attributable to my bowling but I reckon all last season I might have bowled 5 wides, which is an incredible turn around.

Does your son worry about his figures, I know you said half way through my season when I had that bad spell against the left hander not to worry about the figures - just make sure the B******s get sent back to the sheds and your figures will fall into place which seems to have happened?

So that's a strike rate of 16 - that's no too bad. Has he missed any wickets because of the wicket keeper and what's he like at asking for LBW's?

With regards your length comment that's about where I was bowling it yesterday and where my Captain Neil tells me to bowl it, but I've been told shorter before now and confusingly if you search the internet you'll find Shane Warnes Pitch maps that show where he bowls and they're around 5 yards. The thing is he bowls 50 mph + whereas I bowl around 40mph and slightly slower and therefore need to be shorter. I reckon 4 yards as you've suggested sounds like a better option.
Click to expand...

There is an epidemic of wides and no-balls that dont land on the pitch with nearly every young bowler i see now. Not enough practise is what causes it i reckon. That is what i reckon is so good about my kids bowling nearly every ball is on the stumps so the coach will give him the last over in a tight finish as at least there will be no sundries.
At the moment he is going for a few more runs than i'd like but he doesn't notice. Last year he was more economical but less successful at this stage and i suspect even the rest of the season because of his new approach to bowling with the emphasis on off stump line predominantly but not exclusively.

He has gone for maybe 6 boundaries to on, straight and off drives from overpitching to good players but i am not exagerating by saying nearly every other ball could easily have taken a wicket one way or another. Lost count of stumping chances that have gone begging, he had a great keeper at indoors that helped take most of his wickets with great glovework, i wish we had him behind the stumps this outdoor season.There was a big misunderstanding over who should have taken what should have been an easy caught and bowled yesterday . I try to drum into him the importance of taking those ones that you have control over and can only blame yourself for dropping or missing.

Most of his lbw go over the stumps so he doesn't appeal anyway but he reckons when he slips in the flipper or slider he will appeal pretty loudly and instantly, he does if he traps me lb.

With regards pace the theory is the slower you bowl the fuller you need to be , Grimmett wrote that too as general rule of course because there always exceptions especially when you bowled the sheer amount of overs Grimmett did.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

macca;373227 said:
With regards pace the theory is the slower you bowl the fuller you need to be , Grimmett wrote that too as general rule of course because there always exceptions especially when you bowled the sheer amount of overs Grimmett did.
Click to expand...

Yeah that makes sense too, but I'd imagine there's a very fine line between getting it wrong and right? Sounds like your son is doing well, wish I could say the same for both mine. The older one since correcting his jumping off the wrong foot has come on leaps and bounds but he's undecided about whether he wants to bowl spin or fast. His main problem is impatience and frustration, when he doesn't get wickets he either gets angry or bored and then starts bowling too fast and it begins to go wrong. The younger one who used to bowl Leg-Breaks has just lost it completely and I'm just leaving him to draw his own conclusions about why. Again if he focuses and concentrates and is patient he bowls far better but similarly to his older brother he gets frustrated and is impatient. I think it's partly a trait that they've picked up from my wife and also partly due to the immediacy of modern life - if you want most stuff these days it's there. The idea that you might have to practice and get something wrong for a long long time before it comes right is just alien to them.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have recently video-taped my bowling from side on and found that my front knee bends in the delivery instead of being braced. If I fix it and start bowling with a braced straight knee, what kind of benefits will I get?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

More spin if the other leg comes up round and over the braced leg. You may get more accuracy and speed as well because none of the power is being absorbed by the flexed leg? But I reckon Macca will point out that Grimmett bowled with a bent leg.

Has anyone seen this - it's not that active but it may be useful if you're a facebook user Leg-spin bowlers united | Facebook
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Here's one of those confusing articles which mentions Leg Breaks coming out of the back of the hand.......... The Doosra: More on how SF Barnes spun his leg break I have to take issue with this and refer back to the videos of Warne and Jenner and Both Grimmetts and Philpotts books. The Leg break comes out of the front of the hand!

Added later..... This article wound me up a bit because it comes across as being the work of an expert and it's this kind of stuff that in some part undermines my confidence in what I do. In fact I wrote a piece for one of my blogs about how you're told by different people from all walks of life that as a spinner you're basically ineffective and the conlcusion of the piece was that as a Wrist Spinner you are basically out there on your own with very few people knowing or understanding what it is that you do. This bloke it seems is of the same ilk as he admits in this piece.......... http://the-doosra.blogspot.com/2007/03/how-to-bowl-doosra-without-chucking.html "Note: I cannot bowl at all - the above advice is worked out purely on theoretical grounds".
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

water_boy;373288 said:
I have recently video-taped my bowling from side on and found that my front knee bends in the delivery instead of being braced. If I fix it and start bowling with a braced straight knee, what kind of benefits will I get?
Click to expand...

More bounce and spin should come from bracing the front leg in delivery.
Grimmett did bend his front leg but O Reilly almost crouched at delivery he bent his leg that much and he reckons it came from his early years bowling on concrete pitches and his attempt to keep the ball from bouncing too high in those years. Both of them were uncoached and self taught and not necessarily the best examples to follow or copy everything they did.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

someblokecalleddave;373296 said:
Here's one of those confusing articles which mentions Leg Breaks coming out of the back of the hand.......... The Doosra: More on how SF Barnes spun his leg break I have to take issue with this and refer back to the videos of Warne and Jenner and Both Grimmetts and Philpotts books. The Leg break comes out of the front of the hand!

Added later..... This article wound me up a bit because it comes across as being the work of an expert and it's this kind of stuff that in some part undermines my confidence in what I do. In fact I wrote a piece for one of my blogs about how you're told by different people from all walks of life that as a spinner you're basically ineffective and the conlcusion of the piece was that as a Wrist Spinner you are basically out there on your own with very few people knowing or understanding what it is that you do. This bloke it seems is of the same ilk as he admits in this piece.......... The Doosra: How to bowl a Doosra (without chucking) "Note: I cannot bowl at all - the above advice is worked out purely on theoretical grounds".
Click to expand...

The bloke doesn't know what he is talking about. Barnes bowled fast legbreaks and sometimes offbreaks but never wronguns. Barnes and O Reilly were similar in a lot of ways. Not many bowlers could turn the ball from leg to off as much as these two at such pace. Both had unique grips which meant their third finger was pressed into their palm and as they released the ball they spun it like a normal legspinner does with the third finger but also flicked it outwards, a little like the iverson method.

I would rank Barnes, O Reilly, Grimmett and Warne as the greatest bowlers in history. Two fast legbreak bowlers in Barnes and O Reilly that were completely unique and two slower more traditional legspinners in Warne and Grimmett.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top