Ballarat Cricket Association

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Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

pykey is wendouree through and through so i would have 99.9% chance of him being at wendouree this season.

is loyalty starting to become a thing of the past or has it always been the same?
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

I think you'll find the clearance system is in place to protect the competition. The BCA wants a strong competitive environment and having the right to refuse a player from leaving helps to keep clubs competitive.

I think you'll find most players who want to leave and get a clearance knocked back will still play for their current club. Just because a player wants to change teams it doesn't mean he hates his old team that much that he wouldn't play at all. Most of his team mates would still be happy for him to play at the club too.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

I think you'll find the clearance system is in place to protect the competition. The BCA wants a strong competitive environment and having the right to refuse a player from leaving helps to keep clubs competitive.

I think you'll find most players who want to leave and get a clearance knocked back will still play for their current club. Just because a player wants to change teams it doesn't mean he hates his old team that much that he wouldn't play at all. Most of his team mates would still be happy for him to play at the club too.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

Any truth to the rumour that Ricky Ponting has been seen talking to people at the lions? Could Hussey really be on his way to darley?! Has Muralitharan done a deal with the den?! Is anyone safe from the recruiting exploits of darley cricket club?!

Bloody hell, Darley sounds like it has 10 batsmen and 10 quicks driving 40 mins down the road everyweek...sounds like you're talking up what is essentially going to be no different to the side that performed below expectations last year...
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

Any truth to the rumour that Ricky Ponting has been seen talking to people at the lions? Could Hussey really be on his way to darley?! Has Muralitharan done a deal with the den?! Is anyone safe from the recruiting exploits of darley cricket club?!

Bloody hell, Darley sounds like it has 10 batsmen and 10 quicks driving 40 mins down the road everyweek...sounds like you're talking up what is essentially going to be no different to the side that performed below expectations last year...
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

it's all fun and games boys i was taking the piss about pike i no he loves that club. and yes we r looking at ponting he he. things for us will be better thats all ill say.
my say; if i wanted to leave a club and they said no. i could not go back there. it would just not feel right. but thats me. i certainly caught some fish there have'nt i
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

it's all fun and games boys i was taking the piss about pike i no he loves that club. and yes we r looking at ponting he he. things for us will be better thats all ill say.
my say; if i wanted to leave a club and they said no. i could not go back there. it would just not feel right. but thats me. i certainly caught some fish there have'nt i
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

Rep Cricket:

Looks like you left out Dodd to open the bowling and bat at 3. Probably make him captain.

Who is coaching/ selecting the side this year? Are hammer and huntly doing again? I knowles had a good carnival but did his form warrant selection?

From the outside it looks like only one or two players selected on form. Two names unlucky from last year where White from point and Whinney from BRCC. Both had good years particularly before xmas when the teams seems to be picked.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

Rep Cricket:

Looks like you left out Dodd to open the bowling and bat at 3. Probably make him captain.

Who is coaching/ selecting the side this year? Are hammer and huntly doing again? I knowles had a good carnival but did his form warrant selection?

From the outside it looks like only one or two players selected on form. Two names unlucky from last year where White from point and Whinney from BRCC. Both had good years particularly before xmas when the teams seems to be picked.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

Long Time Reader;229198 said:
Rep Cricket:

Looks like you left out Dodd to open the bowling and bat at 3. Probably make him captain.

Who is coaching/ selecting the side this year? Are hammer and huntly doing again? I knowles had a good carnival but did his form warrant selection?

From the outside it looks like only one or two players selected on form. Two names unlucky from last year where White from point and Whinney from BRCC. Both had good years particularly before xmas when the teams seems to be picked.

pretty sure steveo said last year that white wasapproached by the selectors but due to work made himself unavailable
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

Long Time Reader;229198 said:
Rep Cricket:

Looks like you left out Dodd to open the bowling and bat at 3. Probably make him captain.

Who is coaching/ selecting the side this year? Are hammer and huntly doing again? I knowles had a good carnival but did his form warrant selection?

From the outside it looks like only one or two players selected on form. Two names unlucky from last year where White from point and Whinney from BRCC. Both had good years particularly before xmas when the teams seems to be picked.

pretty sure steveo said last year that white wasapproached by the selectors but due to work made himself unavailable
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229206 said:
pretty sure steveo said last year that white wasapproached by the selectors but due to work made himself unavailable

Yeah that's true. He had just started with a local building firm as a draftsman. First job after studies so you can't really say "Thanks for the job. I'm off to play cricket for a week."

And as far as clearing Pete goes, of course we would knock him back. He's a gun and we've put alot of effort into getting his action, body and head right and last year we reaped the benefits. I'm not too keen on doing all that and then watch him go to another club and blow sides away.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229206 said:
pretty sure steveo said last year that white wasapproached by the selectors but due to work made himself unavailable

Yeah that's true. He had just started with a local building firm as a draftsman. First job after studies so you can't really say "Thanks for the job. I'm off to play cricket for a week."

And as far as clearing Pete goes, of course we would knock him back. He's a gun and we've put alot of effort into getting his action, body and head right and last year we reaped the benefits. I'm not too keen on doing all that and then watch him go to another club and blow sides away.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

It would seem I'm about a year late with this, but anyhoo.

It's a great pity that the BCA cannot send its best 15, picked through a combination of form, experience, reputation and ability to Melbourne Country Week each year. Work and other commitments (or lack of commitment in some cases) mean that a number of players either cannot afford to miss a week of work, cannot get time off work and/or can't be bothered.

The whole system of nominating yourself at the start of the season has sucked the prestige out of representing Ballarat in my opinion. And for years a lack of success has been blamed upon some of the best players not participating.

Give me a perfect world, where the best players are selected in a squad, the squad trains and plays a few practice matches together, and it becomes prestigious and elite to represent Ballarat again. Why not throw open the BCA coffers and compensate players $200 or so for missing the week's work ? The final squad of 15 would cost $3K per year, but it could make all the difference in ensuring that the best 15 are there flying the flag for Ballarat.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

It would seem I'm about a year late with this, but anyhoo.

It's a great pity that the BCA cannot send its best 15, picked through a combination of form, experience, reputation and ability to Melbourne Country Week each year. Work and other commitments (or lack of commitment in some cases) mean that a number of players either cannot afford to miss a week of work, cannot get time off work and/or can't be bothered.

The whole system of nominating yourself at the start of the season has sucked the prestige out of representing Ballarat in my opinion. And for years a lack of success has been blamed upon some of the best players not participating.

Give me a perfect world, where the best players are selected in a squad, the squad trains and plays a few practice matches together, and it becomes prestigious and elite to represent Ballarat again. Why not throw open the BCA coffers and compensate players $200 or so for missing the week's work ? The final squad of 15 would cost $3K per year, but it could make all the difference in ensuring that the best 15 are there flying the flag for Ballarat.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

I think Slasher and Pidgeon would be like peas and carrots. Like Forrest and Jenny. Sid and Nancy. Bob and Blanche.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

I think Slasher and Pidgeon would be like peas and carrots. Like Forrest and Jenny. Sid and Nancy. Bob and Blanche.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SteveO;229130 said:
"More than uncomfortable"! Confidence isn't a problem for you, old bean. Here's hoping you open up and come around the wicket again from your first ball. It's comforting to know that the opening bowler you're facing with a new cherry has already eliminated the chance to get you out LBW before he has started his spell.


Hi Steve,

Only defending myself mate! I don't think Cobber is a big fan!!!

You've played in the BCA for a long time and probably the best person to ask on here.

Has the BCA ever had a knock-out cup competition?
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SteveO;229130 said:
"More than uncomfortable"! Confidence isn't a problem for you, old bean. Here's hoping you open up and come around the wicket again from your first ball. It's comforting to know that the opening bowler you're facing with a new cherry has already eliminated the chance to get you out LBW before he has started his spell.


Hi Steve,

Only defending myself mate! I don't think Cobber is a big fan!!!

You've played in the BCA for a long time and probably the best person to ask on here.

Has the BCA ever had a knock-out cup competition?
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

BIGFOOT;229229 said:
Hi Steve,

Only defending myself mate! I don't think Cobber is a big fan!!!

You've played in the BCA for a long time and probably the best person to ask on here.

Has the BCA ever had a knock-out cup competition?


Not in my time. Wendouree used to run the sevens comp once a year. Obviously the Twenty20 is being done too. But stand by one and all as the great GPCC has one up its sleeve that will usurp them all.

Stay tuned!!!
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

BIGFOOT;229229 said:
Hi Steve,

Only defending myself mate! I don't think Cobber is a big fan!!!

You've played in the BCA for a long time and probably the best person to ask on here.

Has the BCA ever had a knock-out cup competition?


Not in my time. Wendouree used to run the sevens comp once a year. Obviously the Twenty20 is being done too. But stand by one and all as the great GPCC has one up its sleeve that will usurp them all.

Stay tuned!!!
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

League Knock-out Cup!

All 10 Team's are drawn out of a hat and compete for League Cup.

Name the Cup after a league legend.

Gives all sides in the competion something to play for even if their season isn't going to plan!

The Cup would only take up 5 Sunday's for the two teams that make the final and less for sides eliminated earlier.

Just imagine a 40-50 over Cup competition final held at the Eastern Oval a month or so before the GF!

I'm sure this would attract people to come and watch Ballarat Cricket and maybe even improve on the amount of people that watch the GF!

If done the right way it could be great for the BCA

What does everybody think???
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

League Knock-out Cup!

All 10 Team's are drawn out of a hat and compete for League Cup.

Name the Cup after a league legend.

Gives all sides in the competion something to play for even if their season isn't going to plan!

The Cup would only take up 5 Sunday's for the two teams that make the final and less for sides eliminated earlier.

Just imagine a 40-50 over Cup competition final held at the Eastern Oval a month or so before the GF!

I'm sure this would attract people to come and watch Ballarat Cricket and maybe even improve on the amount of people that watch the GF!

If done the right way it could be great for the BCA

What does everybody think???
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

Pyke isnt going anywhere. Shit rumour
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

SLASHER;229182 said:
stevo just for arguments sake here
if a player wants to leave a club why would you not clear them if they do not want to play for that club. im just talking in general here. for example. if heath pyke is still at wendouree this season. he wants to come to play at point you would want him there wendouree saids no he is not goin to stay at that club. you couldn't go back there, after trying to leave.

another thing on pyke i have heard on the vine that he could be on his way down to the den. after all he is great mates with the show.

Pyke isnt going anywhere. Shit rumour
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

had an interesting conversation with pete huntly the other day. most people that have played cricket here over a number of years will know that hes a different cat, can be over the top in his enthusiasm but he has a genuine passion for the game, particuarly for the bca.

whilst his tenure at coronet ended a little sour, he did alot of good work for the club early on. then at east & naps has had great results & obviously last year with the rep team. told me that north have recruited a pom, as well as 4 - 6 other players & are hopeful of convincing hoppy to return. i have no doubt that he will in time turn them around.

the point of my post is this. pete had heard about this site, but had never bothered to read it. then, bored one day, he decided to, only to see his character & name been destroyed by some name-less people, that according to pete, wouldnt know the real truth, because more than likely, they are people that wouldnt have been involved at board level, coz they never get involved at board level, coz its easier to sit back, do nothing & then criticise.

now pete stated that personally he couldnt give a shit. but then the other day, one of his family members were confronted by someone the other day about the crap on here & how supposedly, he wrecked the club.

petes message is a simple one, mainly for napisan & the watcher. hes not a hard man to get in touch with, have the courage to give him a ring, disclose who you really are, & let him set the record straight.

now for cobbers piece, yippee, i get another pom to hang shit on during the season!!!!!!!!:D
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

had an interesting conversation with pete huntly the other day. most people that have played cricket here over a number of years will know that hes a different cat, can be over the top in his enthusiasm but he has a genuine passion for the game, particuarly for the bca.

whilst his tenure at coronet ended a little sour, he did alot of good work for the club early on. then at east & naps has had great results & obviously last year with the rep team. told me that north have recruited a pom, as well as 4 - 6 other players & are hopeful of convincing hoppy to return. i have no doubt that he will in time turn them around.

the point of my post is this. pete had heard about this site, but had never bothered to read it. then, bored one day, he decided to, only to see his character & name been destroyed by some name-less people, that according to pete, wouldnt know the real truth, because more than likely, they are people that wouldnt have been involved at board level, coz they never get involved at board level, coz its easier to sit back, do nothing & then criticise.

now pete stated that personally he couldnt give a shit. but then the other day, one of his family members were confronted by someone the other day about the crap on here & how supposedly, he wrecked the club.

petes message is a simple one, mainly for napisan & the watcher. hes not a hard man to get in touch with, have the courage to give him a ring, disclose who you really are, & let him set the record straight.

now for cobbers piece, yippee, i get another pom to hang shit on during the season!!!!!!!!:D
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229332 said:
had an interesting conversation with pete huntly the other day. most people that have played cricket here over a number of years will know that hes a different cat, can be over the top in his enthusiasm but he has a genuine passion for the game, particuarly for the bca.

whilst his tenure at coronet ended a little sour, he did alot of good work for the club early on. then at east & naps has had great results & obviously last year with the rep team. told me that north have recruited a pom, as well as 4 - 6 other players & are hopeful of convincing hoppy to return. i have no doubt that he will in time turn them around.

the point of my post is this. pete had heard about this site, but had never bothered to read it. then, bored one day, he decided to, only to see his character & name been destroyed by some name-less people, that according to pete, wouldnt know the real truth, because more than likely, they are people that wouldnt have been involved at board level, coz they never get involved at board level, coz its easier to sit back, do nothing & then criticise.

now pete stated that personally he couldnt give a shit. but then the other day, one of his family members were confronted by someone the other day about the crap on here & how supposedly, he wrecked the club.

petes message is a simple one, mainly for napisan & the watcher. hes not a hard man to get in touch with, have the courage to give him a ring, disclose who you really are, & let him set the record straight.

now for cobbers piece, yippee, i get another pom to hang shit on during the season!!!!!!!!:D

yeah fair call cobber. I probably shouldn't have been so specific and should have said the board and not the president. The result is still the same when you move from a good home base to a shit one its always going to be hard to build a good base of juniors. Its was a decision made the whole board and not one person but the result of that decision has proved wrong.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229332 said:
had an interesting conversation with pete huntly the other day. most people that have played cricket here over a number of years will know that hes a different cat, can be over the top in his enthusiasm but he has a genuine passion for the game, particuarly for the bca.

whilst his tenure at coronet ended a little sour, he did alot of good work for the club early on. then at east & naps has had great results & obviously last year with the rep team. told me that north have recruited a pom, as well as 4 - 6 other players & are hopeful of convincing hoppy to return. i have no doubt that he will in time turn them around.

the point of my post is this. pete had heard about this site, but had never bothered to read it. then, bored one day, he decided to, only to see his character & name been destroyed by some name-less people, that according to pete, wouldnt know the real truth, because more than likely, they are people that wouldnt have been involved at board level, coz they never get involved at board level, coz its easier to sit back, do nothing & then criticise.

now pete stated that personally he couldnt give a shit. but then the other day, one of his family members were confronted by someone the other day about the crap on here & how supposedly, he wrecked the club.

petes message is a simple one, mainly for napisan & the watcher. hes not a hard man to get in touch with, have the courage to give him a ring, disclose who you really are, & let him set the record straight.

now for cobbers piece, yippee, i get another pom to hang shit on during the season!!!!!!!!:D

yeah fair call cobber. I probably shouldn't have been so specific and should have said the board and not the president. The result is still the same when you move from a good home base to a shit one its always going to be hard to build a good base of juniors. Its was a decision made the whole board and not one person but the result of that decision has proved wrong.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229332 said:
now for cobbers piece, yippee, i get another pom to hang shit on during the season!!!!!!!!:D


I would have to think that this new pom will struggle. From what I have seen, when a team gets a player in from overseas, the player is talked up like they are going to take the competition by the short and curleys and show just how great they are. But when it comes to the end of the season, they have struggled and just been a bit player.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229332 said:
now for cobbers piece, yippee, i get another pom to hang shit on during the season!!!!!!!!:D


I would have to think that this new pom will struggle. From what I have seen, when a team gets a player in from overseas, the player is talked up like they are going to take the competition by the short and curleys and show just how great they are. But when it comes to the end of the season, they have struggled and just been a bit player.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

the_ghost;229343 said:
I would have to think that this new pom will struggle. From what I have seen, when a team gets a player in from overseas, the player is talked up like they are going to take the competition by the short and curleys and show just how great they are. But when it comes to the end of the season, they have struggled and just been a bit player.

well we must have been very lucky with pete appleton then? and although i never played against him mapatuna was a great player? correct me if im wrong
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

the_ghost;229343 said:
I would have to think that this new pom will struggle. From what I have seen, when a team gets a player in from overseas, the player is talked up like they are going to take the competition by the short and curleys and show just how great they are. But when it comes to the end of the season, they have struggled and just been a bit player.

well we must have been very lucky with pete appleton then? and although i never played against him mapatuna was a great player? correct me if im wrong
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

napisan;229342 said:
yeah fair call cobber. I probably shouldn't have been so specific and should have said the board and not the president. The result is still the same when you move from a good home base to a shit one its always going to be hard to build a good base of juniors. Its was a decision made the whole board and not one person but the result of that decision has proved wrong.

whether the decision was right or wrong, its been 7 tears since pete was at the club. 7 years is long enough to fix the junior structure. 3 of those years have been at grammar, yet no grammar kids play at coronet, why? your current problems lie with the current board, not decisions made over 7 years ago. you have to be pro active recruiting kids, put proper coaches in place.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

napisan;229342 said:
yeah fair call cobber. I probably shouldn't have been so specific and should have said the board and not the president. The result is still the same when you move from a good home base to a shit one its always going to be hard to build a good base of juniors. Its was a decision made the whole board and not one person but the result of that decision has proved wrong.

whether the decision was right or wrong, its been 7 tears since pete was at the club. 7 years is long enough to fix the junior structure. 3 of those years have been at grammar, yet no grammar kids play at coronet, why? your current problems lie with the current board, not decisions made over 7 years ago. you have to be pro active recruiting kids, put proper coaches in place.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229345 said:
whether the decision was right or wrong, its been 7 tears since pete was at the club. 7 years is long enough to fix the junior structure. 3 of those years have been at grammar, yet no grammar kids play at coronet, why? your current problems lie with the current board, not decisions made over 7 years ago. you have to be pro active recruiting kids, put proper coaches in place.

The current board could be more pro active in juniors but the club was starting losing players and when it starts to spiral downhill it hard to turn things around.

I'm pretty sure there were multiple grammar students playing in our u16's last year.

The point i was making is that we lost our home base and the club has struggled in the juniors since then. If you live in mount clear and you are 12years old where would you play? Mt Clear . I am just saying we would have attracted a lot of Invermay kids to our club if we had of stayed out there.
At the moment young kids don't know we exist because we have a lack of identity which means its tough to find juniors and having a designated suburb to draw from is a big advantage.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

cobber14;229345 said:
whether the decision was right or wrong, its been 7 tears since pete was at the club. 7 years is long enough to fix the junior structure. 3 of those years have been at grammar, yet no grammar kids play at coronet, why? your current problems lie with the current board, not decisions made over 7 years ago. you have to be pro active recruiting kids, put proper coaches in place.

The current board could be more pro active in juniors but the club was starting losing players and when it starts to spiral downhill it hard to turn things around.

I'm pretty sure there were multiple grammar students playing in our u16's last year.

The point i was making is that we lost our home base and the club has struggled in the juniors since then. If you live in mount clear and you are 12years old where would you play? Mt Clear . I am just saying we would have attracted a lot of Invermay kids to our club if we had of stayed out there.
At the moment young kids don't know we exist because we have a lack of identity which means its tough to find juniors and having a designated suburb to draw from is a big advantage.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

big guy;229344 said:
well we must have been very lucky with pete appleton then? and although i never played against him mapatuna was a great player? correct me if im wrong

I was talking in general, and more so about in other leagues that I have seen. There is always going to exceptions to the rule, but from what I have seen it seems that the overseas players tend to struggle.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

big guy;229344 said:
well we must have been very lucky with pete appleton then? and although i never played against him mapatuna was a great player? correct me if im wrong

I was talking in general, and more so about in other leagues that I have seen. There is always going to exceptions to the rule, but from what I have seen it seems that the overseas players tend to struggle.
 
Re: Ballarat Cricket Association

gee whiz, working thru the truth & the bullshit on this site takes some doing...

1stly, an admission. steveo & i have had a few run-ins over the years in battle, but most of the stuff he has written here i tend to agree with...scary heh steve!!!

pete huntly is a good bloke, will fix north & put more hours in coronet at a huge personal cost, so to suggest he would make decisions that would hurt the club is crap.

shiv, trust me, last season was no fluke. we will make finals again.

big guy is a magic soccer player!!!!!!!

where has irv gone. a veteran of the comp, credits in the bank, his views on here are missed.

pigde, stay away.

did i mention i cant believe i agree with steveo???
 
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