General Chat 12/13

[Dingo_Jones]

I have read with some interest the last 20 or so posts and tried to digest and understand the concerns of posters whom claim to be of the Southern VTCA competitions.
I think the first mistake some posters on this forum from clubs in the southern region fall into, is to compare "SOUTH" with "NORTH" rather than address their concerns as members of the VTCA regardless of geographical positioning.

Yes, "TRAVEL" is a legitimate concern for clubs in a lower division. However travel should not be an issue for a club that earns promotion to "SENIOR" division. The VTCA dropped the second division "A" Grade (SENIORS "A") because of clubs legitimate concerns of too much "TRAVEL", and formulated "SOUTH" and "NORTH" division which addressed the clubs preference.

The "SENIOR" division is open to any club to gain promotion regardless of geographical position. When a club applies to affiliate and is accepted by the VTCA, it affiliates on the understanding that the competition is a promotional system and as such the club would need to abide by the rules of the competition. Except for mitigating circumstances.

Clubs whose "A" Grade members complain of too much"TRAVEL", do so in my opinion for selfish reasons. Some of those selfish players actually refer to themselves as "CLUBMEN". Too many clubs suffer "A" Grade players whom claim they are there to progress the club and to enjoy their cricket, when in fact they have no interest in the clubs secular well being. Good players they maybe, but on the whole totally self interested. Country cricketers can travel for an hour or more to a game and have been doing so for decades and then some.

Bonus points allows an association to ensure a particular sports oval where cricket is played, is utilised for the entire afternoon. This requires that a requisite number of overs be bowled to ensure that sports ovals are not vacated too early. "Four DAY" "GRAND FINALS" ensure that summer sport (Cricket) fully utilises sports ovals to the end of march. Why?. Other sports eye vacant or under utilised grounds and put forward proposals to start their season earlier. A case in point was when AFL club Avondale Heights "ESSENDON COMP" tried to get the cricket section to agree to a written agreement to vacate Canning Street oval by the middle of march so the the footy club could advance it's own agenda.

Unfortunately their is a lot of hyperbole from people whom post on this forum about the issues I have written about. Some of whom I'm sure are misguided committee men that continually bleat their ideas on how the VTCA should conduct it's self. Most of those ideas are just what they are and that is "SHIT" Shitty ideas should be consigned to from whence they came. Back into the bucket of shit.

Fortunately the VTCA has an abundance of people with "BELIEFS". BELIEFS are far better than ideas.
BELIEFS will keep your club strong and carry the association forward.

 

[A Slow Death!]

I have read with some interest the last 20 or so posts and tried to digest and understand the concerns of posters whom claim to be of the Southern VTCA competitions.
I think the first mistake some posters on this forum from clubs in the southern region fall into, is to compare "SOUTH" with "NORTH" rather than address their concerns as members of the VTCA regardless of geographical positioning.

Yes, "TRAVEL" is a legitimate concern for clubs in a lower division. However travel should not be an issue for a club that earns promotion to "SENIOR" division. The VTCA dropped the second division "A" Grade (SENIORS "A") because of clubs legitimate concerns of too much "TRAVEL", and formulated "SOUTH" and "NORTH" division which addressed the clubs preference.

The "SENIOR" division is open to any club to gain promotion regardless of geographical position. When a club applies to affiliate and is accepted by the VTCA, it affiliates on the understanding that the competition is a promotional system and as such the club would need to abide by the rules of the competition. Except for mitigating circumstances.

Clubs whose "A" Grade members complain of too much"TRAVEL", do so in my opinion for selfish reasons. Some of those selfish players actually refer to themselves as "CLUBMEN". Too many clubs suffer "A" Grade players whom claim they are there to progress the club and to enjoy their cricket, when in fact they have no interest in the clubs secular well being. Good players they maybe, but on the whole totally self interested. Country cricketers can travel for an hour or more to a game and have been doing so for decades and then some.

Bonus points allows an association to ensure a particular sports oval where cricket is played, is utilised for the entire afternoon. This requires that a requisite number of overs be bowled to ensure that sports ovals are not vacated too early. "Four DAY" "GRAND FINALS" ensure that summer sport (Cricket) fully utilises sports ovals to the end of march. Why?. Other sports eye vacant or under utilised grounds and put forward proposals to start their season earlier. A case in point was when AFL club Avondale Heights "ESSENDON COMP" tried to get the cricket section to agree to a written agreement to vacate Canning Street oval by the middle of march so the the footy club could advance it's own agenda.

Unfortunately their is a lot of hyperbole from people whom post on this forum about the issues I have written about. Some of whom I'm sure are misguided committee men that continually bleat their ideas on how the VTCA should conduct it's self. Most of those ideas are just what they are and that is "SHIT" Shitty ideas should be consigned to from whence they came. Back into the bucket of shit.

Fortunately the VTCA has an abundance of people with "BELIEFS". BELIEFS are far better than ideas.
BELIEFS will keep your club strong and carry the association forward.

Dingo Head in the sand,Dingley just pulled up stumps the list of 18 looks right! Maybe in the North all of the Comps are weaker than VTCA in the East in the ECA and in the South the CMCA and DDCA are strong and getting stronger only Port Melbourne have joined the VTCA in the South in the past few 10 years and stayed while the others leave.VTCA Exec have their heads in your sandbox more dominos to come.

 

[Battler]

So you want the VTCA to just set the standards and if clubs don't like it they can leave? Doesn't really work in a somewhat competitive market with other associations around who are probably more willing to listen to clubs within their association. Since this has been happening as well clubs are leaving and it's a clear trend in the South, are the association concerned with this? There doesn't seem to be any evidence to indicate that they are. Or are they happy to let them continue leaving. I wonder what position the VT sees itself in 5-10 years from now because currently they aren't doing anything to change the trend.

 

[Dingo_Jones]

So you want the VTCA to just set the standards and if clubs don't like it they can leave? Doesn't really work in a somewhat competitive market with other associations around who are probably more willing to listen to clubs within their association. Since this has been happening as well clubs are leaving and it's a clear trend in the South, are the association concerned with this? There doesn't seem to be any evidence to indicate that they are. Or are they happy to let them continue leaving. I wonder what position the VT sees itself in 5-10 years from now because currently they aren't doing anything to change the trend.

I wouldn't be so audacious as to suggest how a club should conduct its' affairs, except for club committees to look inwardly, for in there often lies the problem.
The VTCA is the clubs. The VTCA executive conducts the affairs of the association at the direction of the affilliated clubs. The last time I looked we lived in an egalitarian society. Is the majority always wrong?

 

[Crickileaks]

I wouldn't be so audacious as to suggest how a club should conduct its' affairs, except for club committees to look inwardly, for in there often lies the problem.
The VTCA is the clubs. The VTCA executive conducts the affairs of the association at the direction of the affilliated clubs. The last time I looked we lived in an egalitarian society. Is the majority always wrong?

Good point.

Pretty sure VTCA make rules based on majority feedback. Just because some on Bigcricket dont like the rules doesnt mean its the view of the majority.

 

[A Slow Death!]

A VTCA South Presidents meeting was held early this year, Jimmy Seeary raised North South Competition with the winners playing off,the VTCA moved that point on smartly.Cricket Victoria is moving to a Regional Competition for all Competitions 2014/15 because cross town cricket is dead.Studies have shown cricket is in such decay that participation levels so low for young players is now being treated as critical.My Club has five senior sides not many others do.With nearly 40% of South Clubs disappearing in the past decade I would say the Majority is speaking with their the feet.To do the same thing year in year out and get the same results is indicative of a reluctance to change.Exit polls on why Clubs have left would be standard I presume ? This hasnt happened?

 

[Crickileaks]

A VTCA South Presidents meeting was held early this year, Jimmy Seeary raised North South Competition with the winners playing off,the VTCA moved that point on smartly.Cricket Victoria is moving to a Regional Competition for all Competitions 2014/15 because cross town cricket is dead.Studies have shown cricket is in such decay that participation levels so low for young players is now being treated as critical.My Club has five senior sides not many others do.With nearly 40% of South Clubs disappearing in the past decade I would say the Majority is speaking with their the feet.To do the same thing year in year out and get the same results is indicative of a reluctance to change.Exit polls on why Clubs have left would be standard I presume ? This hasnt happened?

Isnt that what we have now?

Combined Nth/Sth Top division for those that want to play against the best clubs.

remaining clubs play against nth or sth clubs. a good solution to suit the majority.

 

[southern sledge]

That's true.
Why are Parkdale worried about Senior when they've been nowhere near it and can apply to stay in the South if they didn't want to travel. Good luck to them when they have to travel around Crimebourne

 

[Battler]

Fair points. Then if the majority are followed I'm sure many are looking forward to the points being 0 for juniors because I have never heard a single person say that shouldn't be the case.

 

[rat'n'bat]

I have read with some interest the last 20 or so posts and tried to digest and understand the concerns of posters whom claim to be of the Southern VTCA competitions.
I think the first mistake some posters on this forum from clubs in the southern region fall into, is to compare "SOUTH" with "NORTH" rather than address their concerns as members of the VTCA regardless of geographical positioning.

Yes, "TRAVEL" is a legitimate concern for clubs in a lower division. However travel should not be an issue for a club that earns promotion to "SENIOR" division. The VTCA dropped the second division "A" Grade (SENIORS "A") because of clubs legitimate concerns of too much "TRAVEL", and formulated "SOUTH" and "NORTH" division which addressed the clubs preference.

The "SENIOR" division is open to any club to gain promotion regardless of geographical position. When a club applies to affiliate and is accepted by the VTCA, it affiliates on the understanding that the competition is a promotional system and as such the club would need to abide by the rules of the competition. Except for mitigating circumstances.

Clubs whose "A" Grade members complain of too much"TRAVEL", do so in my opinion for selfish reasons. Some of those selfish players actually refer to themselves as "CLUBMEN". Too many clubs suffer "A" Grade players whom claim they are there to progress the club and to enjoy their cricket, when in fact they have no interest in the clubs secular well being. Good players they maybe, but on the whole totally self interested. Country cricketers can travel for an hour or more to a game and have been doing so for decades and then some.

Bonus points allows an association to ensure a particular sports oval where cricket is played, is utilised for the entire afternoon. This requires that a requisite number of overs be bowled to ensure that sports ovals are not vacated too early. "Four DAY" "GRAND FINALS" ensure that summer sport (Cricket) fully utilises sports ovals to the end of march. Why?. Other sports eye vacant or under utilised grounds and put forward proposals to start their season earlier. A case in point was when AFL club Avondale Heights "ESSENDON COMP" tried to get the cricket section to agree to a written agreement to vacate Canning Street oval by the middle of march so the the footy club could advance it's own agenda.

Unfortunately their is a lot of hyperbole from people whom post on this forum about the issues I have written about. Some of whom I'm sure are misguided committee men that continually bleat their ideas on how the VTCA should conduct it's self. Most of those ideas are just what they are and that is "SHIT" Shitty ideas should be consigned to from whence they came. Back into the bucket of shit.

Fortunately the VTCA has an abundance of people with "BELIEFS". BELIEFS are far better than ideas.
BELIEFS will keep your club strong and carry the association forward.

I don't know how in the past 20 or so posts you missed some of the things that were said, but I'll repeat for you. For my club (note club, not 1st XI) having 1/4 of our Saturday players playing on the other side of town on average every 2nd week would not be great culturally for us. I'm sure most of our 1st XI wouldn't mind (would prefer not to, but wouldn't mind) but I can't see many of our 2nd XI being too keen on it though. And I reckon guys in our lower XIs would prefer to have those guys around the club on a Saturday night.
Now, aside from the fact that there is state government legislation defining the cricket and footy seasons, if we are playing a 4 day GF only to maximise the cricket we play, then why don't we all play league cricket to the end of March, like in the UK. We have on my vey rough count 110 grounds in use each week and we play til the end of March on less than 20 of them, past February on less than 40 of them. It is hardly maximising ground usage. So if we have to have a 4 day GF, fine, but don't tell me it is done so we don't lose grounds. There are far better ways to maximise ground usage

 

[Dingo_Jones]

A VTCA South Presidents meeting was held early this year, Jimmy Seeary raised North South Competition with the winners playing off,the VTCA moved that point on smartly.Cricket Victoria is moving to a Regional Competition for all Competitions 2014/15 because cross town cricket is dead.Studies have shown cricket is in such decay that participation levels so low for young players is now being treated as critical.My Club has five senior sides not many others do.With nearly 40% of South Clubs disappearing in the past decade I would say the Majority is speaking with their the feet.To do the same thing year in year out and get the same results is indicative of a reluctance to change.Exit polls on why Clubs have left would be standard I presume ? This hasnt happened?

Had a meeting recently with Rohan Obst,"Participation and growth leader" from Cricket Victoria. One thing that became very obvious to me and I must say I'm not surprised and that is , we suburban clubs are very much still on our own when it comes to encouraging children to take up cricket as a sport and play in an organised competition.
There is obviously a lot of feckless clubs out there, that haven't paid attention to their junior section and as a consequence the make-up of the seniors begins to change and pretty soon there are players playing in a higher grade than they otherwise would. Pretty soon questions are asked and the leaders begin to blame external influences rather than looking inward to fix the problem.

How many clubs have left the south would you say in the last 5 years?

 

[Dingo_Jones]

I don't know how in the past 20 or so posts you missed some of the things that were said, but I'll repeat for you. For my club (note club, not 1st XI) having 1/4 of our Saturday players playing on the other side of town on average every 2nd week would not be great culturally for us. I'm sure most of our 1st XI wouldn't mind (would prefer not to, but wouldn't mind) but I can't see many of our 2nd XI being too keen on it though. And I reckon guys in our lower XIs would prefer to have those guys around the club on a Saturday night.
Now, aside from the fact that there is state government legislation defining the cricket and footy seasons, if we are playing a 4 day GF only to maximise the cricket we play, then why don't we all play league cricket to the end of March, like in the UK. We have on my vey rough count 110 grounds in use each week and we play til the end of March on less than 20 of them, past February on less than 40 of them. It is hardly maximising ground usage. So if we have to have a 4 day GF, fine, but don't tell me it is done so we don't lose grounds. There are far better ways to maximise ground usage

I have read all of your recent posts and I fully concur with most of your concerns and suggestions. You make some very good points. I do sympathize with "senior" seconds having to travel across town every 2nd match. I know that is a bitch, but it is unfortunately one of the down sides of presenting an elite competition. Having an elite competition such as "Seniors" is why the VTCA is one of the most respected cricket associations in australia.

Obviously playing 4 day grand finals is not the only method of maximising ground usuage. I have often thought there are a lot of clubs missing out on cricket during the month of march. Perhaps those clubs not in finals should play twenty/20 matches. Don't forget the AFL and Soccer Australia are busy lobbying state govs to move some of their operations into the summer months. Once they achieve that, then watch the local footy clubs get active.

 

[rat'n'bat]

Obviously playing 4 day grand finals is not the only method of maximising ground usuage. I have often thought there are a lot of clubs missing out on cricket during the month of march. Perhaps those clubs not in finals should play twenty/20 matches. Don't forget the AFL and Soccer Australia are busy lobbying state govs to move some of their operations into the summer months. Once they achieve that, then watch the local footy clubs get active.

Our ground which is obviously a turf ground, is used by our milo group on Friday night, has 120 kids at the T20 Blast on Saturday morning. We also have our Sunday one day side play there every 2nd week. Throw in some junior T20 games and this year hosting the CMCA rep games and it gets used plenty throughout the year which certainly makes it easier for us with council
Our 2nd ground has a synthetic pitch on it as well, so it is used by our junior teams on Friday night and Saturday evening. So once again there are many ways to make the most out of our grounds without being overly paranoid about the last week in March

 

[Tobogganist]

Sludge can you just ************ off this forum! Everyone else are putting up well considered arguements for and against what some believe is a problem with the South comp and all you can do is just throw in 4 word lines that give nothing. Why not see if you can engage your brain to make a reasonable contribution to the debate! The VT are going to have difficulties getting volunteers to stand for Exec with people like you still floating around.

 

[southern sledge]

Rat and Bat knows whats going on but continues to shit stir. I know what the problems are and hopefully people are listening in the right places.
If we don't use the grounds in March , footy and soccer will grab them pushing us back to 5 months a year and thats also with councils not getting turf decks ready till the 2nd or 3rd weekend of October because of footy

 

[rat'n'bat]

Rat and Bat knows whats going on but continues to shit stir. I know what the problems are and hopefully people are listening in the right places.
If we don't use the grounds in March , footy and soccer will grab them pushing us back to 5 months a year and thats also with councils not getting turf decks ready till the 2nd or 3rd weekend of October because of footy

If my last post was a Sh*t stir, I give up

Yes, we have a good relationship with our council, thanks to a lot of work between guys from our executive and the guys at Council. And one of the things that that helps us is we use our ground as much as we can

But the fact is we have at least 90 or so grounds not used at all in the last two weeks of March, 70 or so not used from the Labour Day weekend – so as I said before – if we have to have a 4 day GF, fine, but using those 20 grounds for an extra week does not “maximise usage”

If we want to maximise usage, how about playing on the grounds that are ready to go in the 1st two weeks of October

When does local footy finish? Do they sit around scared that their grounds will be taken away from them because they aren’t being used?

 

[TheScorer]

How many clubs have left the south would you say in the last 5 years?

Checking the ladders from the 2007-08 season, five years ago, the departures from the various 1st XI grades are Maccabi Ajax, MHSOB, Nth Caulfield/Glenhuntly, East Malvern (then playing as East Malvern/Tooronga) and South Yarra. To those we now need to definitely/possibly add Dingley and Parkdale, and rumours mention Old Mentonians. I also heard on Sunday that Mentone were going to DDCA, but being over a few drinks I would put that down as a definite rumour

What happens if the number of south teams outside Senior Division comes down to 15 or less? A six or seven team grade?

 

[Dingo_Jones]

Checking the ladders from the 2007-08 season, five years ago, the departures from the various 1st XI grades are Maccabi Ajax, MHSOB, Nth Caulfield/Glenhuntly, East Malvern (then playing as East Malvern/Tooronga) and South Yarra. To those we now need to definitely/possibly add Dingley and Parkdale, and rumours mention Old Mentonians. I also heard on Sunday that Mentone were going to DDCA, but being over a few drinks I would put that down as a definite rumour

What happens if the number of south teams outside Senior Division comes down to 15 or less? A six or seven team grade?

Thanks for the heads-up. From your calculations 5 clubs have definitely left the southern comp in the past 5 years with a further 2 definitely/possibly leaving soon. Thats around five or seven clubs have or will be effectively lost to the comp.Certainly not good in any bodies language. Still whilst those clubs have left another 20 have joined the VTCA in the past 5 years from the northern area. Not bad for a disorganised comp I would say. The VTCA must be doing something right. Mind you I'm not suggesting you said that. I'm responding to "A Slow Death's" comment on post 309.

Having witnessed the disintergration of the "Sunshine" one level 10 club 'A" grade comp 14 years ago and also 7 years before that the collapse of the "Footscray" one level 8 club "A" grade comp, I can tell you there is a real danger for clubs that leave a large organisation like the VTCA. With small competitions Pretty soon rat bags end up on the associations executive and perochial decisions are the order of the day. Disenchantment sets in with the clubs and then the exodus begins. This always happens, as has been my experience, due to a small associations inability to find good quality administrators drawn from a small pool.

Where the south is concerned, there is definitely a problem which is alarming to say the least. 15 or so clubs below "SEniors" is not good. All I can say is, as I'm not across all of the South's concerns, except what I see posted on this forum, is to "stick fat" and to keep lobbying the VTCA executive. I'm sure with a bit of give and take from both entities there will be a good out come.

 

[Dingo_Jones]

If my last post was a Sh*t stir, I give up

Yes, we have a good relationship with our council, thanks to a lot of work between guys from our executive and the guys at Council. And one of the things that that helps us is we use our ground as much as we can

But the fact is we have at least 90 or so grounds not used at all in the last two weeks of March, 70 or so not used from the Labour Day weekend – so as I said before – if we have to have a 4 day GF, fine, but using those 20 grounds for an extra week does not “maximise usage”

If we want to maximise usage, how about playing on the grounds that are ready to go in the 1st two weeks of October

When does local footy finish? Do they sit around scared that their grounds will be taken away from them because they aren’t being used?

I agree clubs that are ready to go at season start should be allowed to proceed with there fixtured match.

If footy finishes early at a particular ground the council are most pleased, as it allows them to top dress the ground earlier prior to cricket starting.

From my understanding footy clubs want to get two practice matches in before season starts. Preferably home games as they make more money. Hence the footy club wanting to get on in the middle of march. Footy club budgets in the Essendon Comp are allegedly approaching $400,000 per season. With that sort of pressure, All of a sudden the normal 6 month window is too short a period for there fund raising activities.

 

[Crickileaks]

I agree clubs that are ready to go at season start should be allowed to proceed with there fixtured match.

If footy finishes early at a particular ground the council are most pleased, as it allows them to top dress the ground earlier prior to cricket starting.

From my understanding footy clubs want to get two practice matches in before season starts. Preferably home games as they make more money. Hence the footy club wanting to get on in the middle of march. Footy club budgets in the Essendon Comp are allegedly approaching $400,000 per season. With that sort of pressure, All of a sudden the normal 6 month window is too short a period for there fund raising activities.

Spot on.