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Dave
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Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
I think they will be able to field
I think they will be able to field
ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
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timmyj51
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Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
"Cricket is vaugely similar in this concept but players must be able to do all things (to an extent) and not just be totally committed to just one aspect of the game."
Maybe for Sunday parks cricket, not first class. Specialized strike bowlers,
specialized spin bowlers, specialized slip fielders, specialized opening
batsmen, specialized middle order batters, on and on...
Bowlers must be able to bat when required and batters also must know how the bowl as they may be called upon to bowl a few overs."
Batters ONLY bowl because ODI rules limit bowler overs. Don't think
baseball pitchers can bat? Some do it damn well.
"And all players must have a high skill level in the fielding department, especially in one-day and Twenty20 cricket."
EVERYONE on pro baseball team must be a superlative fielder.
"Coverting a baseball player to cricket would require them to learn a wide range of skills and not just one or a few."
"Cricket is vaugely similar in this concept but players must be able to do all things (to an extent) and not just be totally committed to just one aspect of the game."
Maybe for Sunday parks cricket, not first class. Specialized strike bowlers,
specialized spin bowlers, specialized slip fielders, specialized opening
batsmen, specialized middle order batters, on and on...
Bowlers must be able to bat when required and batters also must know how the bowl as they may be called upon to bowl a few overs."
Batters ONLY bowl because ODI rules limit bowler overs. Don't think
baseball pitchers can bat? Some do it damn well.
"And all players must have a high skill level in the fielding department, especially in one-day and Twenty20 cricket."
EVERYONE on pro baseball team must be a superlative fielder.
"Coverting a baseball player to cricket would require them to learn a wide range of skills and not just one or a few."
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Wilbix
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
What??? Does that even answer his statement?
Name 3.timmyj51;142978 said:
Except the DH, a lot of pitchers, many Left Fielders.timmyj51;142978 said:
What??? Does that even answer his statement?
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
Name 3 pitchers:
Mike Hampton (career 15 home runs, batted .320 in 2005)
Rick Rhoden (career 9 home runs, batted .375 in 1980 and is a scratch golfer)
Babe Ruth (need I say more)
Also, most DHs are players who formerly had fielding positions, so they do know how to field. And the DH is only in the American League, National League does not have DH. And playing Left Field is actually a very busy fielding position, concidering most batters are right handed and pull the ball to left field.
Name 3 pitchers:
Mike Hampton (career 15 home runs, batted .320 in 2005)
Rick Rhoden (career 9 home runs, batted .375 in 1980 and is a scratch golfer)
Babe Ruth (need I say more)
Also, most DHs are players who formerly had fielding positions, so they do know how to field. And the DH is only in the American League, National League does not have DH. And playing Left Field is actually a very busy fielding position, concidering most batters are right handed and pull the ball to left field.
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Wilbix
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
I don't really want to get into an argument - I was just giving timmy a taste of his own medicine. I meant 3 current pitchers - and 15 career home runs is hardly "damn well". A good hitter will hit 20+ HR per season.
DHs generally DH because they can't field anymore (or not at all). Frank Thomas can barely run, but he is able to DH because he can hit the ball far and hard.
Left fielders may have to gather up a lot of balls, but rarely do they have a life or death situation in their hands.
I don't really want to get into an argument - I was just giving timmy a taste of his own medicine. I meant 3 current pitchers - and 15 career home runs is hardly "damn well". A good hitter will hit 20+ HR per season.
DHs generally DH because they can't field anymore (or not at all). Frank Thomas can barely run, but he is able to DH because he can hit the ball far and hard.
Left fielders may have to gather up a lot of balls, but rarely do they have a life or death situation in their hands.
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
Sure left fielders have life/death situations. How about diving for a fly ball to save a pitchers no hitter? Or climbing over the wall to catch a potential game winning home run from the other team? OK so if DHs cant run or field then we wont train them to be cricket players. Theyre too old anyway. A good hitter does not have to hit 20+ home runs to bat "damn well". So is Tony Gwynn not a good hitter(he just got elected to the Hall of Fame BTW)? He never hit 20+ home runs in a season. Listen, if the US is going to produce decent competitive cricket players, professional baseball players are our greatest candidates. Keep in mind, not only do we have the MLB players, but a ton of great players at the minor league level and collegiate level. It may not take a 2-Day intensive boot camp training session like timmy is suggesting, but given 6 to 12 months of training and knowledge of the game, I think the US could produce a world contender. But, like I have said many times before on this forum, here in the States, we have no incentives for athletes like pro baseball players to want to learn cricket or be good at the sport. Once we can establish incentives for athletes in the US to learn cricket and be good at it, then we can begin the "baseball to cricket" training process.
Sure left fielders have life/death situations. How about diving for a fly ball to save a pitchers no hitter? Or climbing over the wall to catch a potential game winning home run from the other team? OK so if DHs cant run or field then we wont train them to be cricket players. Theyre too old anyway. A good hitter does not have to hit 20+ home runs to bat "damn well". So is Tony Gwynn not a good hitter(he just got elected to the Hall of Fame BTW)? He never hit 20+ home runs in a season. Listen, if the US is going to produce decent competitive cricket players, professional baseball players are our greatest candidates. Keep in mind, not only do we have the MLB players, but a ton of great players at the minor league level and collegiate level. It may not take a 2-Day intensive boot camp training session like timmy is suggesting, but given 6 to 12 months of training and knowledge of the game, I think the US could produce a world contender. But, like I have said many times before on this forum, here in the States, we have no incentives for athletes like pro baseball players to want to learn cricket or be good at the sport. Once we can establish incentives for athletes in the US to learn cricket and be good at it, then we can begin the "baseball to cricket" training process.
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
Err, we aren't talking about the different specialities within each discipline. We're talking about batting, bowling and fielding, the three basic things a cricketer must be able to do.
If you'd have watched a game of cricket before, you would know that most slip fielders are actually batsmen and any batsmen can bat in any role within a side.
Yep, that's the rules and they have been the rules for quite some time. Players that are good at more than one aspect of the game (all-rounders, i.e. Andrew Flintoff, Andrew Symonds) come into their own in one-day cricket as they are very valuble in these matches.
Do you not watch test matches either? Did you see the test between Australia and India and part-time spinner Michael Clarke took 6/9? And did you see the test where part-timer spinner Michael Bevan had a 10-wicket match?
Not according to one poster below me and he'd know a lot more about baseball than I would.
Gee, ya think?
Tim, if you're going to debate cricket with me, don't put up a half-baked quote from some guy no-one knows anything about. And insulting people using quotes from others is just pathetic.
timmyj51;142978 said:
Err, we aren't talking about the different specialities within each discipline. We're talking about batting, bowling and fielding, the three basic things a cricketer must be able to do.
If you'd have watched a game of cricket before, you would know that most slip fielders are actually batsmen and any batsmen can bat in any role within a side.
timmyj51 said:
Yep, that's the rules and they have been the rules for quite some time. Players that are good at more than one aspect of the game (all-rounders, i.e. Andrew Flintoff, Andrew Symonds) come into their own in one-day cricket as they are very valuble in these matches.
Do you not watch test matches either? Did you see the test between Australia and India and part-time spinner Michael Clarke took 6/9? And did you see the test where part-timer spinner Michael Bevan had a 10-wicket match?
timmyj51 said:
Not according to one poster below me and he'd know a lot more about baseball than I would.
timmyj51 said:
Gee, ya think?
Tim, if you're going to debate cricket with me, don't put up a half-baked quote from some guy no-one knows anything about. And insulting people using quotes from others is just pathetic.
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timmyj51
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
" if you're going to debate cricket with me, don't put up a half-baked quote from some guy no-one knows anything about. And insulting people using quotes from others is just pathetic."
"We must not conform reality to meet or own narrow minds but expand
our minds as much as possible to encompas reality." --Schelling
" if you're going to debate cricket with me, don't put up a half-baked quote from some guy no-one knows anything about. And insulting people using quotes from others is just pathetic."
"We must not conform reality to meet or own narrow minds but expand
our minds as much as possible to encompas reality." --Schelling
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Cottell
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
Interesting topic, except you all need to take a step back. By the time you get a major league baseball player to take up cricket and perform at an international level, he will be over the hill. Having said that, the concept of bringing in true athletes to become cricketers should be the major goal for develping cricketers. You need to corral these "athletes" as kids, not already in a major league sport. To notice kids at an early stage; coordinated, fast, good hand-eye coordination, these are the kids you need to get into cricket. Cricket in the USA does not have the luxury to continue bringing in established cricketers (old cricketers). Not unlike Canada, Bermuda and many of the other ex-pat countries, cricket development must start with the youth. Procurring kids to play cricket instead of baseball, football, basketball, etc. should be the main emphasis of a developing country. A pro baseball player would have a fairly easy time adjusting to cricket, but not at a top level for many years. Having an established system to recruit and coach these kids is what the ICC would like to see, long term. If the correct administration was in place, this should be the ultimate goal, not being corrupt or inept or self-serving.
Interesting topic, except you all need to take a step back. By the time you get a major league baseball player to take up cricket and perform at an international level, he will be over the hill. Having said that, the concept of bringing in true athletes to become cricketers should be the major goal for develping cricketers. You need to corral these "athletes" as kids, not already in a major league sport. To notice kids at an early stage; coordinated, fast, good hand-eye coordination, these are the kids you need to get into cricket. Cricket in the USA does not have the luxury to continue bringing in established cricketers (old cricketers). Not unlike Canada, Bermuda and many of the other ex-pat countries, cricket development must start with the youth. Procurring kids to play cricket instead of baseball, football, basketball, etc. should be the main emphasis of a developing country. A pro baseball player would have a fairly easy time adjusting to cricket, but not at a top level for many years. Having an established system to recruit and coach these kids is what the ICC would like to see, long term. If the correct administration was in place, this should be the ultimate goal, not being corrupt or inept or self-serving.
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theswami
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
COTTELL,
I agree with your reasoning. You definatley need the youth involved. But at the same time you need a group of older athletes (18 yrs plus) who appeal to these kids so they can get motivated and emulate them.
Ireland is a perfect example. Their players are now under contract and are now quasi-professional athletes, who get to concentrate on Cricket full time. The results are paying off based on their recent ODI matches. The USA needs money and competent, trustworthy leadership that will get youth Cricket moving and put a quality Senior team together and make them paid professionals, who's only job is to play Cricket. Once you start paying players you will find many more atheletes in the US becoming interested.
COTTELL,
I agree with your reasoning. You definatley need the youth involved. But at the same time you need a group of older athletes (18 yrs plus) who appeal to these kids so they can get motivated and emulate them.
Ireland is a perfect example. Their players are now under contract and are now quasi-professional athletes, who get to concentrate on Cricket full time. The results are paying off based on their recent ODI matches. The USA needs money and competent, trustworthy leadership that will get youth Cricket moving and put a quality Senior team together and make them paid professionals, who's only job is to play Cricket. Once you start paying players you will find many more atheletes in the US becoming interested.
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Cottell
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
I can't argue with your points, except to say that instead of putting money first, I would put competent, trustworthy administration first, then money. Any money the USACA has had, has been pissed away on who knows what. As for paying players, I am mixed about that at this stage, but your point is probably very valid. Kids need something to aspire to. Take basketball as an example. Now that the NBA is scouring the world for talent, countries that never played basketball before are turning out world class athletes in the sport. Why? You are right, they pay the big bucks and there is something for the kids to aspire to. Even though very few will ever make it, there is a carrot out there for them. I don't think cricket is anywhere near that level in North America yet, but if there was a 20 year plan and all the managements that would come and go during that period stuck to it, cricket might have a chance. Stanford is trying to entice kids in the West Indies to get into, or back into, cricket with this exact argument. There is money available to make cricket better. If the WICB bought into Stanford's idea, the two could work together and make cricket in the West Indies as strong as it has been in the past.
I can't argue with your points, except to say that instead of putting money first, I would put competent, trustworthy administration first, then money. Any money the USACA has had, has been pissed away on who knows what. As for paying players, I am mixed about that at this stage, but your point is probably very valid. Kids need something to aspire to. Take basketball as an example. Now that the NBA is scouring the world for talent, countries that never played basketball before are turning out world class athletes in the sport. Why? You are right, they pay the big bucks and there is something for the kids to aspire to. Even though very few will ever make it, there is a carrot out there for them. I don't think cricket is anywhere near that level in North America yet, but if there was a 20 year plan and all the managements that would come and go during that period stuck to it, cricket might have a chance. Stanford is trying to entice kids in the West Indies to get into, or back into, cricket with this exact argument. There is money available to make cricket better. If the WICB bought into Stanford's idea, the two could work together and make cricket in the West Indies as strong as it has been in the past.
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theswami
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
This guy Stanford needs to step up and help the USA.
Cottell;143433 said:
This guy Stanford needs to step up and help the USA.
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timmyj51
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
"You need to corral these "athletes" as kids, not already in a major league sport. To notice kids at an early stage; coordinated, fast, good hand-eye coordination, these are the kids you need to get into cricket."
Virtually no change you'll get these type of American kids into cricket. Only
hope is to let them take up baseball and then play cricket interchangeably.
"Cricket in the USA does not have the luxury to continue bringing in established cricketers (old cricketers)."
As a matter of fact, that's exactly how the USCA and the ex-pat community
want things in the USA to continue.
"A pro baseball player would have a fairly easy time adjusting to cricket, but not at a top level for many years."
Totally disagree. A few months intense coaching will do it.
"If the correct administration was in place, this should be the ultimate goal, not being corrupt or inept or self-serving."
Well, at least we agree on that.
"You need to corral these "athletes" as kids, not already in a major league sport. To notice kids at an early stage; coordinated, fast, good hand-eye coordination, these are the kids you need to get into cricket."
Virtually no change you'll get these type of American kids into cricket. Only
hope is to let them take up baseball and then play cricket interchangeably.
"Cricket in the USA does not have the luxury to continue bringing in established cricketers (old cricketers)."
As a matter of fact, that's exactly how the USCA and the ex-pat community
want things in the USA to continue.
"A pro baseball player would have a fairly easy time adjusting to cricket, but not at a top level for many years."
Totally disagree. A few months intense coaching will do it.
"If the correct administration was in place, this should be the ultimate goal, not being corrupt or inept or self-serving."
Well, at least we agree on that.
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timmyj51
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
"This guy Stanford needs to step up and help the USA."
Well, since he's an American you'd like to think that. But I've heard
people have approached him about this and he has no interest in cricket
in the USA.
"This guy Stanford needs to step up and help the USA."
Well, since he's an American you'd like to think that. But I've heard
people have approached him about this and he has no interest in cricket
in the USA.
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timmyj51
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
OK, ICC's suspended USCA which means they won't be playing in the
World Cricket League at Darwin in May. If they miss that then, I assume,
they can't qualify for the ICC Trophy and have no chance of making it
to the next WC. With such a horrendous prospect you'd think that'd be enough
to force out the Maryland Mugabe and his lackies but don't count on it. So the question
remains; if USACA hasn't reformed itself by May, misses the World Cricket
League event in Darwin, will the ICC have the guts to stand by this
disqualification? My guess is they'll cave in, let the USA continue in
the qualifying process through some technicality, while the
Maryland Mugabe continues to hijack USA cricket.
OK, ICC's suspended USCA which means they won't be playing in the
World Cricket League at Darwin in May. If they miss that then, I assume,
they can't qualify for the ICC Trophy and have no chance of making it
to the next WC. With such a horrendous prospect you'd think that'd be enough
to force out the Maryland Mugabe and his lackies but don't count on it. So the question
remains; if USACA hasn't reformed itself by May, misses the World Cricket
League event in Darwin, will the ICC have the guts to stand by this
disqualification? My guess is they'll cave in, let the USA continue in
the qualifying process through some technicality, while the
Maryland Mugabe continues to hijack USA cricket.
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Cottell
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
Timmy, I don't see the ICC caving in at all. I know these people. As much as they would like to see the USA get way more involved in big league cricket, it will never happen until there is a serious change in the USACA. Like Canada, the ICC saw the same set of circumstances unfolding there and forced change through moral suasion. They have been trying to do that in the USA, but to no avail so far. Until another group of people step up to dethrone Mugabe, there will be no change and no ICC. As for getting "athletes" at a young age, you won't get all the kids, but with 250 million people, you don't need a lot to get this program to an elite level. If you are to assume there are 30 million kids under the age of 10 (probably more) and you are able to attract 1 in 1000, you end up with a pool of 30,000 kids. This is very doable at a young age with the proper set up and coaching/mentoring. There are enough immigrants from cricket playing countries to get you these numbers, let alone tap the "naturalized" citizens. This is possible given the resolve and dedication to see through 20 years. This will not happen overnight. This is a long term solution, one that the ICC would like to see implemented. We'll see.
Timmy, I don't see the ICC caving in at all. I know these people. As much as they would like to see the USA get way more involved in big league cricket, it will never happen until there is a serious change in the USACA. Like Canada, the ICC saw the same set of circumstances unfolding there and forced change through moral suasion. They have been trying to do that in the USA, but to no avail so far. Until another group of people step up to dethrone Mugabe, there will be no change and no ICC. As for getting "athletes" at a young age, you won't get all the kids, but with 250 million people, you don't need a lot to get this program to an elite level. If you are to assume there are 30 million kids under the age of 10 (probably more) and you are able to attract 1 in 1000, you end up with a pool of 30,000 kids. This is very doable at a young age with the proper set up and coaching/mentoring. There are enough immigrants from cricket playing countries to get you these numbers, let alone tap the "naturalized" citizens. This is possible given the resolve and dedication to see through 20 years. This will not happen overnight. This is a long term solution, one that the ICC would like to see implemented. We'll see.
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Cottell
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
Swami, Stanford doesn't need to stand up for USA cricket. You need to, Timmy needs to, the moderators of this forum need to. Talk is cheap. Make change yourself and with others. Don't leave it to the other guy to do it while you sit on the sidelines and watch. You may be active in cricket, I don't know, but I do know, that without people such as yourself participating to fix the problem, it's not going to go away.
Swami, Stanford doesn't need to stand up for USA cricket. You need to, Timmy needs to, the moderators of this forum need to. Talk is cheap. Make change yourself and with others. Don't leave it to the other guy to do it while you sit on the sidelines and watch. You may be active in cricket, I don't know, but I do know, that without people such as yourself participating to fix the problem, it's not going to go away.
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timmyj51
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
"Don't leave it to the other guy to do it while you sit on the sidelines and watch."
There's been, are, and will be, plenty of people bustin' their butts for
cricket on the grass roots level in the USA. But the fact remains if there's no help
coming from the top all this won't get very far. Look at USA rugby. They
have a well-managed, well-financed, organization and as a result have
40,000 members, almost all Americans. A couple of well-thought out, well-promoted (not like that recent "legends" joke in Toronto),
20/20 exhibition matches in this country would accomplish more than
all the grass-root efforts have in the past ten years.
Switching gears, still believe ICC's gonna cave in. They did before when
they handed over the ICC welfare check to the Maryland Mugabe so
the USA team could play in the U-19 WC and allowed the USA to play in
the Americas cup. We'll see what happens as May approaches. Still
think they'll "make an exception," "give the USACA another chance" and
let them play at Darwin with no meaningful reforms from the USACA. And if they don't play at
Darwin the ICC better make it crystal clear to the USACA: you've missed the qualifyer and are now permanently,
irrevocably, disqualified from the next WC.
"Don't leave it to the other guy to do it while you sit on the sidelines and watch."
There's been, are, and will be, plenty of people bustin' their butts for
cricket on the grass roots level in the USA. But the fact remains if there's no help
coming from the top all this won't get very far. Look at USA rugby. They
have a well-managed, well-financed, organization and as a result have
40,000 members, almost all Americans. A couple of well-thought out, well-promoted (not like that recent "legends" joke in Toronto),
20/20 exhibition matches in this country would accomplish more than
all the grass-root efforts have in the past ten years.
Switching gears, still believe ICC's gonna cave in. They did before when
they handed over the ICC welfare check to the Maryland Mugabe so
the USA team could play in the U-19 WC and allowed the USA to play in
the Americas cup. We'll see what happens as May approaches. Still
think they'll "make an exception," "give the USACA another chance" and
let them play at Darwin with no meaningful reforms from the USACA. And if they don't play at
Darwin the ICC better make it crystal clear to the USACA: you've missed the qualifyer and are now permanently,
irrevocably, disqualified from the next WC.
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Cottell
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
US cricket has been banished to the scrap heap for now. This also means that no test nation can participate in any event on US soil, because that requires ICC sanction. No twenty20, no ODI, no nothing. Until the USACA gets its house in order, there will be no reprieve (I doubt). There has to be a concerted effort by all regions to rid yourselves of Mugabe. It's not easy, but nothing ever is to get to the top.
US cricket has been banished to the scrap heap for now. This also means that no test nation can participate in any event on US soil, because that requires ICC sanction. No twenty20, no ODI, no nothing. Until the USACA gets its house in order, there will be no reprieve (I doubt). There has to be a concerted effort by all regions to rid yourselves of Mugabe. It's not easy, but nothing ever is to get to the top.
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timmyj51
Guest
Re: ICC suspends USA Cricket Association
"This also means that no test nation can participate in any event on US soil, because that requires ICC sanction."
Sure? According to reports Windies will be playing in Florida this Fall
to open that, supposedly, new cricket stadium.
"This also means that no test nation can participate in any event on US soil, because that requires ICC sanction."
Sure? According to reports Windies will be playing in Florida this Fall
to open that, supposedly, new cricket stadium.