Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Anderson part of winning Ashes squad. Johnson one of the main reasons Australia lost the Ashes. Case re-opened.

If you think Johnson was the 'one of the main reasons' we lost the Ashes, then IMO, you know very little about cricket or you simply didn't see the play unfold.

The Ashes were lost on the back of two poor 1st innings batting performances during the 2nd test and the 5th test. That was the main reason we lost the Ashes.

Did you see the pedestrian Anderson bowling in 2006/07 Ashes, something like 5 wickets @ 80 odd. Or does that not count?

I stand by my claim that Anderson is perennially over-rated, not least by the English fans themselves. Outside of England his record his mediocre, hell, even in England it is nothing to get carried away with.

When Anderson comes out here in 6 months and gets belted to all corners of Australia's cricket fields. then maybe some people will realise that his an ordinary bowler who poses little threat when conditions are not massively in his favour.

Johnson has nearly overtaken Anderson in total wickets taken, a feat that is staggering when you consider the date of each player's test debut.

I look forward to Anderson playing in Australia, we'll see what his made of when his bowling first at the Gabba in 35°C heat instead of late on day 2 with heavy cloud cover and drizzle in the air.

Should be quite a sight, if your an Australian supporter that is

I can't wait.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Stats never tell the whole story though mate. I think the case with Harmison is he could have done more with the talent and height he had. At one stage I thought he was going to be a white Garner/Ambrose, but it didn't happen.

I dont think Anderson is "overrated". He is what he is, a decent bowler who can be a handful in swinging conditions.

You cant play test cricket if you're not any good.

I agree stats don't tell the entire story. No arguement there.

Harmison never reached the heights he was capable of because he was lazy and soft. Let's be blunt.

It is alright bouncing out guys that play on low and slow wickets and are not exposed to the ball bouncing above chest height.

Bounce doesn't worry Australian batsmen, nor should it, we are bought up on hard wickets. Harmison was cannon fodder to our batsmen, he bowler too short, and was duly spanked.

He lost heart quickly, was prone to self-pity, and didn't like working hard.

Let's not glorify guys once they exit the scene.

Brett Lee was, bar a relatively brief period of 2 years, an average red-ball bowler.

As soon as he retires, people are classifying him as an 'all-time great'; not just any people either, but guys like Dennis Lille.

Lee was, on the whole, an average bowler. He bowled to many no-balls, and he slowed our over-rates down with his prolonged run-up.

 

[thommy_rissole]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Let's not glorify guys once they exit the scene.

Brett Lee was, bar a relatively brief period of 2 years, an average red-ball bowler.

As soon as he retires, people are classifying him as an 'all-time great'; not just any people either, but guys like Dennis Lille.

Lee was, on the whole, an average bowler. He bowled to many no-balls, and he slowed our over-rates down with his prolonged run-up.

For the first time in Big Cricket history Ltd and TR have joined forces Lee was/is over-rated.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

For the first time in Big Cricket history Ltd and TR have joined forces Lee was/is over-rated.

And in a feat even rarer, I'm with you on that as well. I'm on the 'was' front though. I think these days he's not so much a show pony and really values what he can and has done, because there's not much (some argue none) left in the tank.

Agreeing with you is something I never thought possible.

Really this whole thread depends upon the definition of overrated though.

You could call Anderson overrated because he has a crap record. But have people really expected him to do any better? If he isn't actually rated highly, then he can't be overrated.

Same with Lee as well. I never expected him his whole career to be anything more than a bruising strike bowler with little accuracy and with the average to show, but with plenty of wickets. Isn't that what, 8 years later, he has become? If I didn't rate him higher than that, surely he can't be overrated (by me anyway).

LtD, could you define 'overrated'?

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

I gather you don't understand the term 'over-rated' then Boris?

Basically, as the name suggests, one could be classified as 'over-rated' if their reputation exceeds their performance.

Lots of people out of England get caught up in the Anderson hype, Scyld Berry, the editor of Wisden, called Broad and Anderson the two 'mastiffs'.

Anderson is an ordinary bowler, yet, he is readily classified as England's spearhead and almost 'untouchable' with regards to selection.

In reality, as his statistics indicate, Anderson often struggles against top quality teams but every now and then bowls an incisive spell that causes onlooker's to ponder how good he could really be.

I know for a fact that the Australian team doesn't fear him; Anderson won't be a threat at all in the upcoming Ashes series, indeed, he may even be a weakness because England will not drop him. Therefore, we can target him.

 

[courtjester]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

One thing I will say about Lee, to his credit, once Gillespie and McGrath were off the scene, he seemed to work hard on his stock ball and his standard outswinger, at made a decent fist of it for a while.

Cant be bothered with the stats, but I reckon his average in his last couple of years in the test team (before injury) would have been pretty good.

Bounce doesn't worry Australian batsmen, nor should it, we are bought up on hard wickets. Harmison was cannon fodder to our batsmen, he bowler too short, and was duly spanked.

It bothered Langer and Ponting a few times in 2005.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

One swallow doesn't make a career, in fact, you could argue that Langer and Ponting were surprised Harmison actually produced a spell of that quality at Lords in 2005, because he sure as hell never bowled like that since that moment.

But my point stands, Australian batsmen, and South African batsmen for that matter, are routinely exposed to hard wickets.

It is why Australia has such a good record in South Africa, the conditions there are applicable to our standard of play.

When we went to South Africa in 2009, I always thought we were at least a 50-50 bet of winning that series because conditions in South Africa are identical to the conditions here.

It is why England will struggle here in 6 months or so, because England have a number of batsmen that flourish on featherbeds when the bounce and pace is slow. Get them on a hard track with bounce and you always feel in the game. Strauss, Bell and Collingwood struggled out here last time, a number of their dismissals were related to cross bat shots.

Strauss struggled with the pull shot and with driving outside off stump. Bell was often trying to force of the back foot through cover; a technique that won't succeed in Australia due to the bounce, however, in English conditions the back-foot drive is a more realistic option.

It was no coincidence that Collingwood loaded up at Adelaide, the flattest of all Australian venues.

With bounce in the decks you don't need a lot of movement to get batsmen out.

Bollinger, Johnson, Watson and Harris/Hilfenhaus will have a field day this Ashes series.

Hell, in the summer just completed many people said that they hadn't seen Australian tracks with bounce and carry for some time.

We should be preparing similar tracks this time, because mark my words, the English will be all at sea. Not least the tail enders, who just hit through the line on English feather-beds, it will be a different story when the ball is hitting the keepers gloves above his head.

Bring it on.

 

[SteveyD]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

It is why England will struggle here in 6 months or so, because England have a number of batsmen that flourish on featherbeds when the bounce and pace is slow. Get them on a hard track with bounce and you always feel in the game. Strauss, Bell and Collingwood struggled out here last time, a number of their dismissals were related to cross bat shots.

Strauss struggled with the pull shot and with driving outside off stump. Bell was often trying to force of the back foot through cover; a technique that won't succeed in Australia due to the bounce, however, in English conditions the back-foot drive is a more realistic option.

It was no coincidence that Collingwood loaded up at Adelaide, the flattest of all Australian venues.

With bounce in the decks you don't need a lot of movement to get batsmen out.

Bollinger, Johnson, Watson and Harris/Hilfenhaus will have a field day this Ashes series.

Hell, in the summer just completed many people said that they hadn't seen Australian tracks with bounce and carry for some time.

We should be preparing similar tracks this time, because mark my words, the English will be all at sea. Not least the tail enders, who just hit through the line on English feather-beds, it will be a different story when the ball is hitting the keepers gloves above his head.

Bring it on.

I actually agree with this quite a lot. We do play a lot on softer wickets, just because the british weather kind of forces that! We always struggle away in just about anywhere because the pitches tend to be harder, however what I dont get is why when teams come over here, for example AUS, why dont you struggle the same the other way around, having always played on hard pitches why do you find it easier to play on the softer / "feather" pitches ?

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

I think our batsmen enjoy the featherbeds, as long as it isn't swinging around corners.

I think our bowlers are the ones that struggle on the weatherbeds, we have also had problems with the Duke as well.

I remember watching test matchs during the 2009 Ashes when on the first day our new ball bowlers were sending the ball through to Haddin and it was bouncing before it got to him.

When you see that you get frustated, because without bounce and carry in the wickets it is harder to hit the edge, even then, if you do hit the edge it may not carry to the cordon.

In English conditions you need to hit a fuller length, the English bowlers, naturally, are more adept in that situation because they are familar with the conditions.

The likes of Anderson, Broad and Onions are all slightly built men; it is clear they haven't exactly been doing to many weights.

Conversely, Bollinger, Johnson, Harris, Hilfenhaus and Siddle are all strongly built, especially with regards to upper body strength. That, IMO, is directly correlated to the fact these bowlers have been bought up on Australian wickets; the ability to get bounce is a great factor in a bowlers arsenal.

There are exceptions, Lee and Steyn are lightly built men who 'skid' the ball through off the surface, however, they do have express pace.

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Summing all up:

Australian batsman are covered for both situations, in Australia they learn to face all bounce types. Only swing can trouble them.

Australian bowlers either struggle or love English conditions (unless you are McGrath or a spinner) as they bowl back of the acceptable length in England and it doesn't work. The medium pacers usually fare better there.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

If you think Johnson was the 'one of the main reasons' we lost the Ashes, then IMO, you know very little about cricket or you simply didn't see the play unfold.

In my honest opinion, people who use the "you know very little about cricket or you simply didn't see the play unfold", are quite literally, full of shit.

Johnson was literally one of the main reasons we lost the Ashes. He bowled some extremely terrible spells, nothing to do with the wickets, it all had to do with him. He went for 4 runs an over for the entire series and more when Australia needed him to step up. The amount of wickets he took masks the crap he bowled.

2nd Test: England v Australia at Lord's, Jul 16-20, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

The Ashes were lost on the back of two poor 1st innings batting performances during the 2nd test and the 5th test. That was the main reason we lost the Ashes.

The Ashes was lost due to both. To say that Johnson going at over 6 an over and allowing England to basically score 400 in a day, didn't contribute? Then to say that England didn't bowl well? You didn't watch the game.

Did you see the pedestrian Anderson bowling in 2006/07 Ashes, something like 5 wickets @ 80 odd. Or does that not count?

And? Why would that count? 2008, he took 40 wickets, in 2009, it was 46. He had been in and out of the side due to England's "rotating door selection policy". Johnson was meant to be in the form of his life and he came out and bowled pump because mummy was mad at him.

I stand by my claim that Anderson is perennially over-rated, not least by the English fans themselves. Outside of England his record his mediocre, hell, even in England it is nothing to get carried away with.

Good for you.

When Anderson comes out here in 6 months and gets belted to all corners of Australia's cricket fields. then maybe some people will realise that his an ordinary bowler who poses little threat when conditions are not massively in his favour.

You obviously haven't been watching him.

Johnson has nearly overtaken Anderson in total wickets taken, a feat that is staggering when you consider the date of each player's test debut.

One player has had a straight run in a reasonably successful side, with full backing from the selectors and captain (who keeps throwing him the ball even when he bowls pump) while another is younger, has been in and out of the side because England lack the ability to pick a player and stand by him and are ready to drop a player after one bad test.

I look forward to Anderson playing in Australia, we'll see what his made of when his bowling first at the Gabba in 35°C heat instead of late on day 2 with heavy cloud cover and drizzle in the air.

Good for you.

Should be quite a sight, if your an Australian supporter that is

I can't wait.

The England side is playing like an early 90's Australian team, quite dogged and I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed us this summer. If Bollinger gets injured Johnson will lose the plot again.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Johnson bowled poorly on day 1, but 425, is hardly a formidable total. We lost 5-40 in our first innings to give up a first innings lead, that is what lost us the test. Because first innings runs are 'tough runs', they are worth double come the second innings. We failed in our first innings, which made it extremely tough.

Johnson is one player, 5 batsmen lost their wickets in the space of 15 overs. Just consider that, losing a recognized batsmen every 3 overs. That is what lost us the test, and it had a far more signifcant impact then Johnson's wayward bowling. Why? Because if one guy has a shocker then you can accept that, but 5 guys just falling over kills your chances.

Im not going to blame Johnson, it is history, but some players will have off days. The key is that other guys pick up the slack, our batsmen lets us down. Simple. It is common sense to see that.

No-one said Johnson was in the form of his life, stop going overboard. He had 6 good test matchs against South Africa in the space of 3 months, hardly a consistent formline.

Ponting was in the 'form of his life' from 2002 through to the end of 2007; 5 years of consistent run scoring. That is what classifies as 'form of your life' stuff, not 3 months of decent bowling FFS. *facepalm*

Johnson doesn't talk to his mum, and has no real relationship with her, hardly unusual. I know a lot of people, including some of my family, that have little contact with first degree relatives, so what? I doubt it had any impact on Johnson at all, if any, rather the media at the time jumped on the bandwagon because they know that people will gobble it up. Thanks for confirming the sterotype.

The England team is running on a large degree of luck, they got lucky in the Ashes, they got luck against South Africa, and they were lucky not to find themselves in a tricky position against Bangladesh in the 2nd test.

Sooner or later that luck will run out, and hopefully we will be right there to benefit. Consider this: Pakistan's attack that just visited our shores is a better unit then that attack coming to England in 6 months.

The Ashes finished 7 months ago, move on, look ahead.

Only fools live in the past.

 

[lewissaffin]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Mitchell Johnson made his test debut at the end of 2007, already Johnson nearly has more wickets than Anderson who made his debut back in 02 or 03 from memory.

Mitchell Johnson has been a mainstay in the Australian test team since the end of 2007. He has played in at least 95% of Australia's Test matches since his debut. Jimmy Anderson made 13 Test appearances between his debut in May 2003 and November 2006, when he first cemented his place in the team.

So, although you stretched your words to full effect, Anderson has played only 13/14 more Tests than Mitchell Johnson.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Johnson bowled poorly on day 1, but 425, is hardly a formidable total. We lost 5-40 in our first innings to give up a first innings lead, that is what lost us the test. Because first innings runs are 'tough runs', they are worth double come the second innings. We failed in our first innings, which made it extremely tough.

Johnson is one player, 5 batsmen lost their wickets in the space of 15 overs. Just consider that, losing a recognized batsmen every 3 overs. That is what lost us the test, and it had a far more signifcant impact then Johnson's wayward bowling. Why? Because if one guy has a shocker then you can accept that, but 5 guys just falling over kills your chances.

I'm not going to blame Johnson, it is history, but some players will have off days. The key is that other guys pick up the slack, our batsmen lets us down. Simple. It is common sense to see that.

Johnson bowled poorly for the majority of the Ashes.

No-one said Johnson was in the form of his life, stop going overboard. He had 6 good test matchs against South Africa in the space of 3 months, hardly a consistent formline.

Ponting was in the 'form of his life' from 2002 through to the end of 2007; 5 years of consistent run scoring. That is what classifies as 'form of your life' stuff, not 3 months of decent bowling FFS. *facepalm*

It was the form of his life, with both the bat and ball. He has struggled to replicate either since.

Johnson doesn't talk to his mum, and has no real relationship with her, hardly unusual. I know a lot of people, including some of my family, that have little contact with first degree relatives, so what? I doubt it had any impact on Johnson at all, if any, rather the media at the time jumped on the bandwagon because they know that people will gobble it up. Thanks for confirming the sterotype.

Except that he confirmed it had.

The England team is running on a large degree of luck, they got lucky in the Ashes, they got luck against South Africa, and they were lucky not to find themselves in a tricky position against Bangladesh in the 2nd test.

It works one way, but not the other.

Sooner or later that luck will run out, and hopefully we will be right there to benefit. Consider this: Pakistan's attack that just visited our shores is a better unit then that attack coming to England in 6 months.

Yeah it's all down to luck not hard work paying off.

The Ashes finished 7 months ago, move on, look ahead.

Only fools live in the past.

You don't have to tell me you're a fool.

 

[Rasterius]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Calling Lee and Clark overrated is ridiculous, Lee has been a central fast bowler for Australia for years in ODI and Test and Clark has had a superb international career to back up very solid state performance. Leading wicket taker in SA on debut followed by leading wicket taker in the Ashes 06/07 and then hit with injury.
Tendulkar rates Lee as one of the best fast bowlers in the world and Lee is a modern miracle to keep on fighting the strains of fast bowling and still play.

The most overrated cricketer would have to be Flintoff. He was a good allrounder and a showman but averaged 30 with bat and ball and he shined in 05 but like the other 05 heroes of england couldn't replicate any performance later on in any format. Great period between 2003 and 2005 but before and after that no centuries and only one 5 for. A folk hero, yes but a cricket hero, no.

 

[Rasterius]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Johnson bowled poorly for the majority of the Ashes.



It was the form of his life, with both the bat and ball. He has struggled to replicate either since.

Sorry but Johnson has bowled some super spells against SA in Australia and in South Africa, 34 wickets in 9 tests and a 50 to start his career and as well as 5 5 fors

 

[Boris]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Calling Lee and Clark overrated is ridiculous, Lee has been a central fast bowler for Australia for years in ODI and Test and Clark has had a superb international career to back up very solid state performance. Leading wicket taker in SA on debut followed by leading wicket taker in the Ashes 06/07 and then hit with injury.
Tendulkar rates Lee as one of the best fast bowlers in the world and Lee is a modern miracle to keep on fighting the strains of fast bowling and still play.

Clark is in no way overrated, but instead underrated.

Lee was definitely not overrated in his last 2 years of cricket - they were sensational and if he bowled like that for his whole career he would be as good as McGrath. That wasn't the case though.

He was extremely overrated before that. He was talked up like he had bowled like that his whole career, and although he was definitely a member of the team and whatnot, he was talked up in the media like the best bowler ever.

This 'overrated' thing comes down the personal opinion on the guy though. Ponting is 'overrated' in India, but come to Australia and he's a god batting wise. Tendulkar can be overrated by many Australians and vice versa in India.

The most overrated cricketer would have to be Flintoff. He was a good allrounder and a showman but averaged 30 with bat and ball and he shined in 05 but like the other 05 heroes of england couldn't replicate any performance later on in any format. Great period between 2003 and 2005 but before and after that no centuries and only one 5 for. A folk hero, yes but a cricket hero, no.

Overrated captain - yes. Not sure if he was overrated as a player. An all rounder is expected to average 30ish bat and ball. He bowled fiery spells around 150 at times, scored mostly when the side needed him under pressure. I don't think he was, but I didn't see much of him.

 

[OhMyGodTheChips]

Re: Most over-rated bowled in the world.....

Sorry but Johnson has bowled some super spells against SA in Australia and in South Africa, 34 wickets in 9 tests and a 50 to start his career and as well as 5 5 fors

That's what I said the form of his life was.

 

[lewissaffin]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

The most overrated cricketer would have to be Flintoff. He was a good allrounder and a showman but averaged 30 with bat and ball and he shined in 05 but like the other 05 heroes of england couldn't replicate any performance later on in any format. Great period between 2003 and 2005 but before and after that no centuries and only one 5 for. A folk hero, yes but a cricket hero, no.

Overrated captain - yes. Not sure if he was overrated as a player. An all rounder is expected to average 30ish bat and ball. He bowled fiery spells around 150 at times, scored mostly when the side needed him under pressure. I don't think he was, but I didn't see much of him.

Maybe in terms of figures, Flintoff wasn't the greatest of players. However, the effect he had on the crowd and the players around him, causing them to raise their abilities, makes him a great player and an indispensable member of the England team.

Remember back to Edgbaston '05, with Australia chasing 281, Australia were about 40-0 and Langer and Hayden were looking set. Flintoff comes on, first ball Langer is gone, and then ensues one of the best overs ever where Ponting is continuously peppered and challenged until, in the seventh ball of the over (one was a no-ball), Ponting edges behind to Jones. That over turned the game and if it wasn't for Flintoff, who knows what might have happened.

 

[Rasterius]

Re: Most over-rated bowler in the world.....

Clark is in no way overrated, but instead underrated.

Lee was definitely not overrated in his last 2 years of cricket - they were sensational and if he bowled like that for his whole career he would be as good as McGrath. That wasn't the case though.

He was extremely overrated before that. He was talked up like he had bowled like that his whole career, and although he was definitely a member of the team and whatnot, he was talked up in the media like the best bowler ever.

This 'overrated' thing comes down the personal opinion on the guy though. Ponting is 'overrated' in India, but come to Australia and he's a god batting wise. Tendulkar can be overrated by many Australians and vice versa in India.



Overrated captain - yes. Not sure if he was overrated as a player. An all rounder is expected to average 30ish bat and ball. He bowled fiery spells around 150 at times, scored mostly when the side needed him under pressure. I don't think he was, but I didn't see much of him.

He hardly reached 150 ever. Mid 140s max. But he was a good fast bowler