boogiespinner
Active Member
Compromise, compromise, compromise.
Rip it, SLA, rip the ball!
This is spin bowling.
Rip it, SLA, rip the ball!
This is spin bowling.
Plastic Balls For Practice
- Thread starter boogiespinner
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Maybe if you ever get to the point where you start bowling regularly in competitive games, you might gain enough knowledge about spin bowling to understand what I'm talking about.
boogiespinner
Active Member
I already understand perfectly. You gave up trying to rip the ball as hard as you could. You gave up trying to bowl like Warne. That is fair enough. I get it. And maybe you took plenty of amateur wickets and still can. But now you try to pretend that Warne bowled like you! And you continually drag down the aspirations of those who want to practice the art of spin bowling sincerely by seeking to generate maximum spin in the same way that a pace bowler seeks to generate maximum pace.
If you think warne ripped every single ball as hard as he could, you're an idiot.
This isn't about my bowling, despite your childish attempts to make this personal. It's about the bowling of every competent spinner.
Expecting a spin bowler to forget about every other aspect of bowling and simple rip every ball as hard as possible is like expecting a fielder to throw every ball to the keeper as hard as possible, every fast bowler to bowl every ball as fast as possible without worrying about line and length, and every batsman to try and smash every ball for six.
Such an belief is beyond naive and simplistic, it's positively moronic. Your understanding of cricket is way, way, way below any cricketer I have ever met.
But then, that's no surprise, because you're not actually a cricketer, are you?
boogiespinner
Active Member
Slow left arm bowlers have notoriously been the bowlers that produce the least spin of all, and not coincidentally they have been the least successful of them all as well. (Except for those spin bowler types that are so uncommon that they cannot be considered in this argument, ex. chinaman, Ajantha Mendis style bowlers etc.)
No professional fast bowler ever just goes out to bowl as fast as they can, even if that means spraying the ball around all over the place. They find a pace that maximises their control over line and length, and the movement they get off the pitch or in the air. Many find that they get more movement bowling ~5mph below their maximum effort. It is no coincidence that the most successful fast bowlers of all time are not the guys who bowl at 90mph+, but rather the guys who bowl in the mid-80s, like McGrath or Anderson.
Of course, spinners do the same thing. Most spinners very rarely bowl a ball with absolute max spin on it. Instead, they find the perfect degree of spin that maximises accuracy, pace and lateral movement. Just as a fast bowler occasionally bowls slower balls and "effort" balls, so do spinners mix up the amount of spin they put on the ball. If you listed the top 10 spin bowlers of all time, you'd list a mixture of leggies, offies and slow left armers, but they'd all have one thing in common - a perfect balance of pace, spin and accuracy.
This is just basic bowling theory - if you really wanted to improve, you'd pay for some coaching, and this is what the coach would tell you.
There is no "quest for maximum spin". Spin bowling is not some childish dick-waving contest, its a means of winning games of cricket for your team. If you want a quest, I suggest you try world of warcraft.
boogiespinner
Active Member
Not in your philosophy there isn't.
You are (deliberately) confusing 'bowling within yourself' with your strategy of compromising spin as a trade for pace. In your philosophy you imply one should bowl faster at expense of spin. In mine, there can be no such compromise. The faster you bowl, the more it spins, because the two are integrated. If you bowl within yourself during a match, you should be slower and less rpm than your maximal efforts in practice.
Fast bowlers absolutely seek to increase their pace as a primary mission: the faster they are, the more potent. You can read books, go to training courses, do workout regimes with simply the aim to add a few mph to your bowling. Yes, there may be specialist swing bowlers who seek to maximise their swing, they may not aim for the highest speeds.
These guys are not compromising pace for accuracy, they are expected to develop the pace AND control it. You have both.
The fastest pace bowlers undoubtedly have a philosophy of bowling as fast as possible, if you wish, I could give you some Jeff Thompson quotes.
Here is a quote regarding Shane Warne from his mentor Terry Jenner:
"By then he will be nearer 38 so the question is: At what age will he retire?
He has made the statement many times over that he is not the rip-it-as-hard-as-you-can 23-year-old he used to be."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/4142694.stm
this implies that Shane Warne quotes his 23-year-old world-beating self as ripping it as hard as he could, and it was physical limitations that prevented him from doing so in his late 30s.
Shane Warne quotes Richie Benaud as having the following advice for him:
Shane Warne, on Richie’s advice to young leg-spinners
“I was an 18-year-old cricketer at Lord’s trying to ply his trade when I first met Richie, and it wasn’t long before we got onto the topic of spin bowling. His passion for this subject was apparent from the very beginning.
“Over dinner now and then through the years, Richie and I would inevitably talk about spin bowling – grabbing bread rolls or whatever was in the vicinity that might be useful to demonstrate grips, how to bowl flippers and all of that.
“Of spin bowling, he had a favoured phrase: ‘Give it a rip!’”
https://www.pitchpublishing.co.uk/content/shane-warne-steve-waugh-richie
This is Shane Warne writing about Stuart MacGill in his book My Top 100 Test Cricketers:
MacGill looked to get big turn on his leg break as his stock delivery. But he used his googly for variety, and it was probably a more effective ball for him than it ever was for me. He saw himself purely as a wicket-taker, so the statistic he looked for was not the usual average of runs-per-wicket, but the number of balls it took to get a dismissal. MacGill just concentrated on turning the ball as far as he could. He has an excellent strike rate in Test Cricket. Because one of my own strengths was control, MacGill used to get criticism if he conceded a couple of boundaries. The fact is that he wouldn't have been as effective a wicket-taker if his first thought had been line and length.
It's sad, because you're so far out of your depth, and yet your sheer arrogance prevents your from seeing this.
Maybe if you actually had the humility to actually listen to the advice of a professional coach and high quality spin bowler, you might one day actually be able to become an acceptable bowler, instead of a middle aged bloke wasting his time hitting the side netting, something even ten year old spinners in their first lesson don't do.
Your presence on this forum is extremely unhelpful. You disingenuously present yourself as if you know what you're talking about, when you quite clearly don't. You're not a coach and you're not a cricketer, and you have no interest in learning from those who are, so It would really be best if you left.
Billywhizz
Member
That was interesting what Warne said of Macgill.
I think you have to approach bowling in a way that suits you. If you're repeatedly advised to bowl in a certain way, it can wear you down and you lose interest.
I think you have to approach bowling in a way that suits you. If you're repeatedly advised to bowl in a certain way, it can wear you down and you lose interest.
More interesting is how he acknowledged his own strength to be control.
I watched warne bowl live in 93, 97, 01 and 05. I also met him briefly at a coaching workshop at lord's a few years ago. He bowls far quicker in real life than it looks on the telly. He really flings the ball down there.
Great bowler, although he talked a lot of **************** during his career and he still does, occasionally. Some of his recent masterclasses, where he has talked about strategy a bit, have been good.
boogiespinner
Active Member
I know one general rule well from debating on the internet, and it is when people simply resort to personal insults it is because they have lost the argument.
The arrogance is yours. I've listened to your advice, and listened to the advice of all the great spin bowlers I can find on the topic, who are almost unanimously against your strategy, and have also done plenty of thinking and experimentation on the matter myself. I have no doubt - as Richie Benaud says unequivocally! - that your recipe is one to produce a spin bowler who can get only so good because he'll never be able to really rip the ball.
You demand that people accept your strategy simply because you are a coach and you are here. Well, no mate. You can say that to your unfortunate paying clients. You are on the internet here, and you can expect to be challenged. Or worse for you, ignored, as most other regular posters are already doing.
Give it a rip, or give it a rest, SLA
How many great spin bowlers have you actually met? How many have you even seen in the flesh?
What you mean is, you've read a few ghost written books and seen a couple of snatches of conversation on tv, and now you think you're an expert! You cherry pick comments out of context to try and make it appear that they support your ridiculously naive argument. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
Why don't you go to a medicine forum and argue about brain surgery with all the brain surgeons. I'm sure you know as much about that topic as you do about spin bowling. Why must we alone suffer your arrogance and idiocy?
boogiespinner
Active Member
lol. "your" thread. You really are about as mature as a petulant 5-year-old, aren't you? How old are you again?
boogiespinner
Active Member
That's not how forums work. Every thread is open to comment by anyone.
By "my bowling style" you presumably mean spin bowling, seeing as that is what I bowl and that is what I coach.
I'm not sure what your bowling style could be called, seeing as you don't really seem interested in bowling at all, more the spinning side of it.
If you want to discuss circus tricks without my input, try this forum: http://www.fun-fairs.co.uk/forum/10-general-circus-forum/
Does anyone make use of these things?
I've bought a few indoor plastic balls to play around with. I'm really liking the readers indoor balls, I'm hoping that I can practice with them outside in the winter in damp weather. They seem to behave pretty much like a normal ball, good feel, but when I bowl with them they often fly down the legside, bit like a drag down. I am actually wondering if it would be good technical practice to master bowling with these.
I think I could bowl legspin pretty much all day with these and not trouble the shoulder.
I've found the 'supaball' to be really good for indoor (i.e. in the house) hand-to-hand practice, has a nice seam and feel but it's unlikely to break anything
I've tried a windball too, but not sure these are so useful.
I recall a brand of plastic cricket balls that were the same weight as a real cricket ball, but obviously made of plastic and not leather. They were incredibly useful for practicing with on abrasive surfaces which would destroy real cricket balls. Extremely convenient for target practice and for experimenting with variations. Not useful if you have good practice facilities and actual cricket balls to bowl with, but I like the idea of having a virtually indestructible "cricket" ball that you can practice with, and I think it's also great for use in practice where the batsman / keeper doesn't have pads / helmet because it isn't as hard as a cricket ball.
If you are thinking about the Gray Nicholls Reverse swing ball - I can scratch that from your options. The weight is about right but it is incredibly hard and more likely to destroy a bat than a real ball (I try to avoid bowling new balls in nets for the same reason). Mine is now relegated to wet outdoor net bowling practice only. Not tried to spin it though so no idea how it handles.
I did pick up a ball that was as you described from a UK shop called poundland. It was advertised as 'Genuine Laether'. Very similar to a cricket ball but must have had a plastic surface. By the time I noticed and went back in again, the shop was sold out and sadly I have never seen them on sale again. I'm guessing this is the one you have previously come across?
I did pick up a ball that was as you described from a UK shop called poundland. It was advertised as 'Genuine Laether'. Very similar to a cricket ball but must have had a plastic surface. By the time I noticed and went back in again, the shop was sold out and sadly I have never seen them on sale again. I'm guessing this is the one you have previously come across?
Any cricket club will have piles and piles of old cricket balls. Cricket clubs typically get through 40-50 balls per summer. Some will be lost, but most will just be stuffed in a carrier bag somewhere. Why not just ask if you can have some; as long as there are plenty left for winter nets, no-one would mind.
The vast majority of plastic balls are soft, light balls designed for safe indoor training, and aimed mainly at juniors. They're not really suitable for practicing your bowling with - even at U11s practice, we use these balls for games and fielding and batting drills, but then get out proper cricket balls for the kids to practice their bowling with.
I emphasise - if you want to practice bowling in the wet and don't want to ruin cricket balls, then use hockey balls like SBCD does.
The vast majority of plastic balls are soft, light balls designed for safe indoor training, and aimed mainly at juniors. They're not really suitable for practicing your bowling with - even at U11s practice, we use these balls for games and fielding and batting drills, but then get out proper cricket balls for the kids to practice their bowling with.
I emphasise - if you want to practice bowling in the wet and don't want to ruin cricket balls, then use hockey balls like SBCD does.