Subbies Thread

[Shocking sinner]

Interesting post, I assume you are connected to Kingston Saints in some shape. I do take offence at your post as I take this as a personal attack. It suggests I put myself above the club. You obviously don't know me if you believe this is the case.
The club has voted overwhelmingly to merge into Premier Cricket and I respect the decision. It is undoubtedly a great opprotunity. I have concerns about how competitive the club will be in the short and medium term and who will do the work at the club. I like dealing in facts and figures and the 'she'll be right' approach gives me grave concerns. I hope these are misplaced.
There is always a place at any club for a player. My issue is that, at 46, Premier cricket is a well and truly in my rear view mirror. Although talk has been that the 5ths and 6ths will play VTCA, I'm not sure I want to play with gumboots. That leaves playing elsewhere as an option. An option I need to decide if I want to take up.
Happy to hear your view at the Kingston AGM next Wednesday.

Certainly not directed at you super, this was to Westland hence the reply to comment.
I think the fact that he thinks that these approaches should be run through senior players who have 1-2 years left in subbies in fear that the time might be cut short is just wrong. If an approach is made by cricket vic about a merge or new team into premier I would think this is the last thing on there mind. Yes it's a bit sad but the bigger picture has always got to be there. Once again nothing to do with you personally just your name was used as an example.

 

[Super Saint]

Certainly not directed at you super, this was to Westland hence the reply to comment.
I think the fact that he thinks that these approaches should be run through senior players who have 1-2 years left in subbies in fear that the time might be cut short is just wrong. If an approach is made by cricket vic about a merge or new team into premier I would think this is the last thing on there mind. Yes it's a bit sad but the bigger picture has always got to be there. Once again nothing to do with you personally just your name was used as an example.

No problem.

 

[westland]

Certainly not directed at you super, this was to Westland hence the reply to comment.
I think the fact that he thinks that these approaches should be run through senior players who have 1-2 years left in subbies in fear that the time might be cut short is just wrong. If an approach is made by cricket vic about a merge or new team into premier I would think this is the last thing on there mind. Yes it's a bit sad but the bigger picture has always got to be there. Once again nothing to do with you personally just your name was used as an example.

My club is not affected by the proposed expansion. My post was intended merely as a follow up to my question to North Clubs Don't Play Players as to whether he thought the announcements by CV could have the effect of destabilising the 3 clubs. It wasn't directed specifically at any of the 3 aspirants. Of course CV wouldn't consult the aspiring clubs' existing players, and how you came to that conclusion from my post I am at a loss to understand. But, following the CV announcement, each member within these clubs is faced with deciding whether they wish to play Premier. It is reasonable to assume, for a whole lot of reasons not necessarily related to age, that a number will not want to play Premier, and, their club may not be able to offer an acceptable alternative. I think that is potentially a destabilising issue. The question of the club being bigger than the individual does not come into play in this matter.

 

[Ben Wood]

My sympathies to Super Saint. I empathise with how he would presently have mixed emotions.

Unfortunately, this is not a black and white issue and, most certainly, there is no clear delineation of “right” and “wrong”. In-fact, there is no "right" and "wrong" but rather two different strategic paths and philosophies on what you want your club's value proposition to be.

Super Saint brings a personal perspective in his articulation of challenge following the recent merge. As someone who has dedicated the lion share of his life to the betterment of his cricket club and its members, his opinion is one to be heard and is also representative of the ambiguity of feelings many would have with such a situation. Is this great recognition, kudos and opportunity for a club that he has dedicated his life to – undoubtedly and I am sure that there is a deep sense of pride and achievement that the club he loves and has served has secured Premier status. On the flipside, from a personal perspective, he may be questioning as to what playing/off-field opportunities will exist in the new world and/or the time that he will have to dedicate to this new world.

Presently, there are 3 VSDCA clubs competing for 2 new proposed Premier Cricket licences from 2016/2017. Without doubt, there will be exodus of both playing and administration personnel from any of the club’s promoted if additional licences are granted as proposed. The club’s concerned would already be aware of this. Any exodus will have no correlation to a love or respect for the club players or officials represent or serve but, rather, highlight the unique and diametrically opposed value propositions of VSDCA and Premier Cricket.

Any exodus will have little to do with age, tenure at the club or even ability (in many regards) but will come down to an individual’s personal preference as to what cricket means to them and the time that they have to invest. Irrespective of age, many VSDCA players and officials will not have the time or inclination necessary to dedicate to the rigours and demands of Premier (full day commitment on Saturday, Sunday play, additional training requirements, etc). This doesn’t imply that any individual would be opposed to the great recognition and opportunity bestowed upon his club but, rather, a personal assessment that the new requirements of a Premier value proposition is one that they are unable to comply with or commit to.

Whether it is Werribee, Melton or Plenty Valley that earns any new Premier licence that may eventuate, there certainly will be significant exodus of current resources (irrespective of whether the players are good enough, etc). Those that have forgone the rigours of Premier cricket owing to work, family, lifestyle commitments will not be in a hurry to return irrespective of how much one may love their current club. As good as many of the best players are at the club’s concerned, Premier 1st XI competitiveness would have little correlation to whether said players stayed around anyway.

This noted, as we all know, a Premier club is not like a VSDCA club. If you establish yourself in a growth corridor, players en masse will come to you (at varying talent levels). The churn of players from Season to Season at Premier level is significant and, in many regards, the elite environment created can be quite a sterile one with a lack of club focus/social integration that one would associate with a VSDCA or grass roots cricket club. I wouldn’t think that any of Werribee, Melton or Plenty Valley would be too concerned with how many of the existing playing resources were to remain and that they would all be expecting an exodus for mutually respected reasons.

All said, I hear Super Saint and understand where he is coming from. There is no doubt he would recognise the opportunity that has been bestowed upon the club he loves and has given his life to. However, with that noted, if he was not to continue with the new world – this would be more a reflection of personal commitment/motivation/time availability, etc than it would be an objection to the merge itself.

Would I take the opportunity for Premier promotion if it was availed to the Falcons – it would certainly need be strongly assessed and considered as to whether in the best interests of the club and community we serve. However, at the same time, I wouldn’t be naïve to the fact that it wouldn't result in player exodus of 75% to 85% of existing playing resource talent as well as off-field contributors that won’t have the additional time necessary. As I’m sure Super Saint has grappled with as well given his Committee position, from a personal perspective, I would make a decision that was best for the club and community (long term) but would need question my own ongoing involvement due to the transient nature of Premier and the challenge that this presents with building deep, long lasting club service of 20+ years and the friendships created as a result.

 

[Left arm orthodox]

Intersting that Ormond on the verge of another big signing, but couldn't keep Wight.

Where has Wight gone?

 

[Scratch]

Where has Wight gone?

Glen Iris

 

[Super Saint]

My sympathies to Super Saint. I empathise with how he would presently have mixed emotions.

Unfortunately, this is not a black and white issue and, most certainly, there is no clear delineation of “right” and “wrong”. In-fact, there is no "right" and "wrong" but rather two different strategic paths and philosophies on what you want your club's value proposition to be.

Super Saint brings a personal perspective in his articulation of challenge following the recent merge. As someone who has dedicated the lion share of his life to the betterment of his cricket club and its members, his opinion is one to be heard and is also representative of the ambiguity of feelings many would have with such a situation. Is this great recognition, kudos and opportunity for a club that he has dedicated his life to – undoubtedly and I am sure that there is a deep sense of pride and achievement that the club he loves and has served has secured Premier status. On the flipside, from a personal perspective, he may be questioning as to what playing/off-field opportunities will exist in the new world and/or the time that he will have to dedicate to this new world.

Presently, there are 3 VSDCA clubs competing for 2 new proposed Premier Cricket licences from 2016/2017. Without doubt, there will be exodus of both playing and administration personnel from any of the club’s promoted if additional licences are granted as proposed. The club’s concerned would already be aware of this. Any exodus will have no correlation to a love or respect for the club players or officials represent or serve but, rather, highlight the unique and diametrically opposed value propositions of VSDCA and Premier Cricket.

Any exodus will have little to do with age, tenure at the club or even ability (in many regards) but will come down to an individual’s personal preference as to what cricket means to them and the time that they have to invest. Irrespective of age, many VSDCA players and officials will not have the time or inclination necessary to dedicate to the rigours and demands of Premier (full day commitment on Saturday, Sunday play, additional training requirements, etc). This doesn’t imply that any individual would be opposed to the great recognition and opportunity bestowed upon his club but, rather, a personal assessment that the new requirements of a Premier value proposition is one that they are unable to comply with or commit to.

Whether it is Werribee, Melton or Plenty Valley that earns any new Premier licence that may eventuate, there certainly will be significant exodus of current resources (irrespective of whether the players are good enough, etc). Those that have forgone the rigours of Premier cricket owing to work, family, lifestyle commitments will not be in a hurry to return irrespective of how much one may love their current club. As good as many of the best players are at the club’s concerned, Premier 1st XI competitiveness would have little correlation to whether said players stayed around anyway.

This noted, as we all know, a Premier club is not like a VSDCA club. If you establish yourself in a growth corridor, players en masse will come to you (at varying talent levels). The churn of players from Season to Season at Premier level is significant and, in many regards, the elite environment created can be quite a sterile one with a lack of club focus/social integration that one would associate with a VSDCA or grass roots cricket club. I wouldn’t think that any of Werribee, Melton or Plenty Valley would be too concerned with how many of the existing playing resources were to remain and that they would all be expecting an exodus for mutually respected reasons.

All said, I hear Super Saint and understand where he is coming from. There is no doubt he would recognise the opportunity that has been bestowed upon the club he loves and has given his life to. However, with that noted, if he was not to continue with the new world – this would be more a reflection of personal commitment/motivation/time availability, etc than it would be an objection to the merge itself.

Would I take the opportunity for Premier promotion if it was availed to the Falcons – it would certainly need be strongly assessed and considered as to whether in the best interests of the club and community we serve. However, at the same time, I wouldn’t be naïve to the fact that it wouldn't result in player exodus of 75% to 85% of existing playing resource talent as well as off-field contributors that won’t have the additional time necessary. As I’m sure Super Saint has grappled with as well given his Committee position, from a personal perspective, I would make a decision that was best for the club and community (long term) but would need question my own ongoing involvement due to the transient nature of Premier and the challenge that this presents with building deep, long lasting club service of 20+ years and the friendships created as a result.

Thanks Ben, I think this probably sums up moving to Premier cricket. It is a great opportunity, but it is not for everyone. There will undoubtedly be people who leave, as there will be when the next 2 clubs are admitted. It is undoubtedly going to be a tough few years, the positive is that there are people involved who have had Premier club experience from an administrative and playing point of view.

 

[Random Truths]

Very interesting reading. I'm almost tempted to go to the Kingston AGM next Wednesday to hear what the plans are. Definitely Kingston's home ground isn't fit for Premier, wonder where they will play.

In other news, hearing stories of a mass walk-out from a Subbies club, to the point where they won't be able to field a team. Huge.

 

[short & wide]

Bit of a rumour floating around that a group of Premier Presidents have had a meeting to discuss ways of blocking ANY expansion of Premier Cricket should CV put it to a vote. No big surprise there, but perhaps they should have a REDUCTION of teams on their agenda. There is solid support for the expansion from some of the more enlightened clubs, but they seem to be in the minority.

 

[Super Saint]

Very interesting reading. I'm almost tempted to go to the Kingston AGM next Wednesday to hear what the plans are. Definitely Kingston's home ground isn't fit for Premier, wonder where they will play.

In other news, hearing stories of a mass walk-out from a Subbies club, to the point where they won't be able to field a team. Huge.

Interested how you believe the ground isn't fit for Premier Cricket? Just going to walk off the street into an AGM?

 

[DerekH]

Very interesting reading. I'm almost tempted to go to the Kingston AGM next Wednesday to hear what the plans are. Definitely Kingston's home ground isn't fit for Premier, wonder where they will play.

In other news, hearing stories of a mass walk-out from a Subbies club, to the point where they won't be able to field a team. Huge.

The Kingston ground is faultless. Most certainly fit for premier cricket.

 

[Random Truths]

The Kingston ground is faultless. Most certainly fit for premier cricket.

Having played there (we're talking Walter Galt yeah?) last season for the first time, that short side boundary was a concern.

Also, anything wrong with walking into an AGM? I have a genuine interest in giving Premier one last crack.

 

[Super Saint]

Having played there (we're talking Walter Galt yeah?) last season for the first time, that short side boundary was a concern.

Also, anything wrong with walking into an AGM? I have a genuine interest in giving Premier one last crack.

Yes we are. One short boundary? Same for both sides, wouldn't say that is a huge concern.

Nothing wrong with walking into the AGM, FYI, it is the Kingston Saints one, not the combined club. Nothing wrong with having a crack, FYI, there is an 'open night' at the club on Monday night, starting at 6.30pm, which will go through things such as preseason. Should get along to that.

 

[Random Truths]

Yes we are. One short boundary? Same for both sides, wouldn't say that is a huge concern.

Nothing wrong with walking into the AGM, FYI, it is the Kingston Saints one, not the combined club. Nothing wrong with having a crack, FYI, there is an 'open night' at the club on Monday night, starting at 6.30pm, which will go through things such as preseason. Should get along to that.

Oh nice. Ok I'll try and do that.

 

[Young Willi Lad]

Very interesting reading. I'm almost tempted to go to the Kingston AGM next Wednesday to hear what the plans are. Definitely Kingston's home ground isn't fit for Premier, wonder where they will play.

In other news, hearing stories of a mass walk-out from a Subbies club, to the point where they won't be able to field a team. Huge.

Which Club?

That is not good for the competition.

 

[Random Truths]

Which Club?

That is not good for the competition.

It's all conjecture at the moment, but spoke with a mate from the Hills on the weekend. Said Zach Allen (naturally) has moved to Premier, followed by Ben Swift and a couple of the young guns. The Peake's have left, and they haven't picked up any players, so the crop that have been there for a while aren't too happy.

 

[westland]

Bit of a rumour floating around that a group of Premier Presidents have had a meeting to discuss ways of blocking ANY expansion of Premier Cricket should CV put it to a vote. No big surprise there, but perhaps they should have a REDUCTION of teams on their agenda. There is solid support for the expansion from some of the more enlightened clubs, but they seem to be in the minority.

Several months ago, Ronchi said the Premier clubs had already given consent for the expansion of the comp to 20. A senior official of a Premier club has advised me this is not the unanimous view of all Premier clubs.The matter will come to a head. In the event CV are rolled by their clubs on the proposed expansion and, in the meantime, Hoppers had been admitted to the subbies, this would result in the subbies having 2 clubs almost alongside each other. McKinnon was knocked back some years ago for this reason.

 

[Young Willi Lad]

Several months ago, Ronchi said the Premier clubs had already given consent for the expansion of the comp to 20. A senior official of a Premier club has advised me this is not the unanimous view of all Premier clubs.The matter will come to a head. In the event CV are rolled by their clubs on the proposed expansion and, in the meantime, Hoppers had been admitted to the subbies, this would result in the subbies having 2 clubs almost alongside each other. McKinnon was knocked back some years ago for this reason.

Chirnside Park, Werribee to Hogans Road Oval, Hoppers Crossing is actually further than the distance it is between Williamstown and Yarraville's home grounds. 10 mins down the road is Altona also so I don't think Hoppers joining would be considered that big of a deal.

It is also a lot closer than Coburg and Preston's grounds so don't see the deal.

 

[westland]

Chirnside Park, Werribee to Hogans Road Oval, Hoppers Crossing is actually further than the distance it is between Williamstown and Yarraville's home grounds. 10 mins down the road is Altona also so I don't think Hoppers joining would be considered that big of a deal.

It is also a lot closer than Coburg and Preston's grounds so don't see the deal.

Fair point. Has feed-back come to your notice of Werribee's attitude to Hoppers expression of interest to join the subbies? I have heard nothing, not that I have tried to find out.

 

[Ben Wood]

Plenty of VSDCA clubs that, geographically, are as close (if not closer) than Werribee and Hoppers Crossing will be.

Balwyn to Kew

Malvern to Caulfield

Williamstown to Yarraville

Ormond to Caulfield

Brunswick to Coburg

Coburg to Preston

Furthermore, Werribee and Hoppers Crossing would have the benefit over and above the majority of the clubs listed above in being able to draw from a growth corridor of Victoria and a young demographic.

All said, wouldn’t think that Werribee or Hoppers Crossing would have any problems calling on an area within Victoria that has a population, on par, to all of Tasmania. Don't know how receptive other VSDCA clubs would be as to any concerns that may be raised of a new club encroaching on an established recruiting area out there in the West.