The Serious Discussion Thread.

[Grier]

Agreed the Jews have a right to exist Thomas and were offered a homeland in the once British Mandate of Palestine in 1948 after WWII to help them escape the centuries old antipathy they experienced in Europe. Many had fled to the UK by then. Prior to that the Brits offered them the NW of Australia on behalf of us obsequious Aussies, then. There were issues on that from the Jews and Australia so it fell through.
Nevertheless the Jews, with Britain's blessings, moved to land partitioned out for them in the lands of Palestine. The Jewish state of Israel was born with the UN's approval. Fine, but the troubles with the resident Arabs began from the get go, then the six day war etc... What resulted from that and other conflicts was Israel grabbing more and more Palestinian land, continuing still to the present day. Pity Britain didn't anticipate that.
I don't decry a homeland for the Jewish people but they have become incessant land grabbers since partition.
Lately I heard shouts of "This is "all" our land!"

 

[Richie]

If yes, why not there? If no, why not and where else, respectively?

Yes, as even some Arab states have now acquiesced and accepted them in their present location. The crux of the problem tho, which you seem to have missed Thomas, is DO THE PALESTINIANS ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST, not only exist but in PEACE IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND. It was Israel that created these so called 'terrorist' groups Hamas, Hezbolah. They are freedom fighters, perhaps militants but not terrorists. Yet the Jewish state and the US turn a blind eye to this , so the repression and oppression continues for decade after decade.

 

[looker-on]

Agreed the Jews have a right to exist Thomas and were offered a homeland in the once British Mandate of Palestine in 1948 after WWII to help them escape the centuries old antipathy they experienced in Europe. Many had fled to the UK by then. Prior to that the Brits offered them the NW of Australia on behalf of us obsequious Aussies, then. There were issues on that from the Jews and Australia so it fell through.
Nevertheless the Jews, with Britain's blessings, moved to land partitioned out for them in the lands of Palestine. The Jewish state of Israel was born with the UN's approval. Fine, but the troubles with the resident Arabs began from the get go, then the six day war etc... What resulted from that and other conflicts was Israel grabbing more and more Palestinian land, continuing still to the present day. Pity Britain didn't anticipate that.
I don't decry a homeland for the Jewish people but they have become incessant land grabbers since partition.
Lately I heard shouts of "This is "all" our land!"
View attachment 2854

I largely agree, Terry. It's a Gordian Knot that would have to be cut and, as I may have said earlier, it's the extremists on either side who prevent it. In recent times even the fundamental agreement on Israel's right to exist has been abandoned. But once there is this agreement, a two-state-solution could be worked on. There is no other feasible solution.
The West, as you point out, has made severe mistakes as it has in other conflicts, the most recent one being the one between Russia and Ukraine. The underlying reason is the non-synchronism as described by Ernst Bloch and the power concentrated in the hands of a few people no matter how capable and up to the job they are.

 

[Richie]

the Jews, with Britain's blessings, moved to land partitioned out for them in the lands of Palestine. The Jewish state of Israel was born with the UN's approval.

Why did'nt the self serving British colonial power return independence to the Palestinians before abandoning them and putting their future in the hands of the UN or was it still the League of Nations. Then why did the UN/LON permit the Jews to build a homeland on someone elses land and Arab land at that, when the most appropriate place would have been the ancient Jewish nation of Judea. It'd have been like returning them to their roots. Or was Judea also occupied by Arabs.
Surely the UN/LON envisaged that having a non Arab race inhabiting the nation of an Arab people was going to cause acrimony not only for the Palestinian population but from its Arab neibors, which is precisely what transpired.
The whole situation was a total shambles and has resulted in the former owners being strangers in their own land.

 

[looker-on]

Yes, as even some Arab states have now acquiesced and accept them in their present location. The crux tho of the problem, which you seem to have missed Thomas, is DO THE PALESTINIANS ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST, not only exist but in PEACE IN THEIR OWN HOMELAND. It was Israel that created these so called "terrorist enclaves'' Hamas, Hezbolah. They are freedom fighters not terrorists. yet the Jewish state and the US turn a blind eye to this , so the repression and oppression continues for decade after decade.

As I said in my reply to Terry, it was the West, Great Britain in particular, which failed to reach a solution that would have taken the Palestinians' right to exist into account. The biggest mistake was made at the beginning of the Jewish settlement. That's why I was asking where else should they've been allowed to settle if not in that region? If the answer is : I don't know/care, it would be tantamount to practically denying the Jews to build and have their own state. At that early stage the overriding question was whether their right to exist was accepted. Once that point was agreed on, a solution should have been worked out which included the Palestinians' right to exist as well - and - which territories they could keep for themselves, IOW, the two-state-solution. So, it's the old formula of Land for Peace, which a lot of people all over the world (mostly to be found in the current opposition movement) are favouring again as a solution to the Ukraine conflict.
Richie, I didn't overlook that but my point is that Israel's right to exist was paramount and needed to be guaranteed first. Sadly, Israeli hardliners and extremists kept grabbing land, as Terry said, which has escalated the conflict up to the present day and has now got out of proportion.
What has been a pipe dream back then, though, and will always be a naive idea is the notion that the Jews should have been left alone in solving their problem of nation building. Such an approach totally ignores or underrates the dynamics of the prosecution and genocide of the Jews particularly in Europe. But that kind of head in the sand attitude can be observed again in Europe with reference to the war in Ukraine.

 

[Kram81]

Hunter Biden verdict: Biden vows to respect jury's decision

Hunter Biden was convicted after a week-long trial that laid bare a tumultuous time for the family.

www.bbc.com

 

[Grier]

Why did'nt the self serving British colonial power return independence to the Palestinians before abandoning them and putting their future in the hands of the UN or was it still the League of Nations. Then why did the UN/LON permit the Jews to build a homeland on someone elses land and Arab land at that, when the most appropriate place would have been the ancient Jewish nation of Judea. It'd have been like returning them to their roots. Or was Judea also occupied by Arabs.
Surely the UN/LON envisaged that having a non Arab race inhabiting the nation of an Arab people was going to cause acrimony not only for the Palestinian population but from its Arab neibors, which is precisely what transpired.
The whole situation was a total shambles and has resulted in the former owners being strangers in their own land.

The Brits were very straight in dividing up nations Craig. Straight in that they liked using a ruler and pencils on maps. Nice and neat! Pity they forgot about the Kurds between Iraq and Turkiye. In hindsight they were often careless about such divisions of land and nations. Very careless as we now see the consequences of their then (?) incompetence.

 

[Grier]

As I said in my reply to Terry, it was the West, Great Britain in particular, which failed to reach a solution that would have taken the Palestinians' right to exist into account. The biggest mistake was made at the beginning of the Jewish settlement. That's why I was asking where else should they've been allowed to settle if not in that region? If the answer is : I don't know/care, it would be tantamount to practically denying the Jews to build and have their own state. At that early stage the overriding question was whether their right to exist was accepted. Once that point was agreed on, a solution should have been worked out which included the Palestinians' right to exist as well - and - which territories they could keep for themselves, IOW, the two-state-solution. So, it's the old formula of Land for Peace, which a lot of people all over the world (mostly to be found in the current opposition movement) are favouring again as a solution to the Ukraine conflict.
Richie, I didn't overlook that but my point is that Israel's right to exist was paramount and needed to be guaranteed first. Sadly, Israeli hardliners and extremists kept grabbing land, as Terry said, which has escalated the conflict up to the present day and has now got out of proportion.
What has been a pipe dream back then, though, and will always be a naive idea is the notion that the Jews should have been left alone in solving their problem of nation building. Such an approach totally ignores or underrates the dynamics of the prosecution and genocide of the Jews particularly in Europe. But that kind of head in the sand attitude can be observed again in Europe with reference to the war in Ukraine.

Well said Thomas!

Those Israeli hardliners have got Netanyahu dancing like a puppet on strings, and he's just as complicit willing to sell his soul and slaughter innocents just to stay in power.
Many Jews want him out too.

The offer of the NW of Australia to the Jews for a homeland in the 1930's was mainly stymied by Jewish procrastination, and then WWII started with Australia taking the deal off the table.
The region more specifically encompassed the Kimberly region in the north of our Western Australia.
In later decades many diamonds were found there with great wrealth to be made, and so it was. Also huge amounts of water, vast rivers, mines, abundent irrigated crops, dams, hydro power, ... On the downside is the hot and 'humid' weather which many, including me, can't handle. And there's lots of big Crocodiles!

And here's a bit of light relief!

 

[Grier]

Hunter Biden verdict: Biden vows to respect jury's decision

Hunter Biden was convicted after a week-long trial that laid bare a tumultuous time for the family.

www.bbc.com

That's very decent of Biden to say that Kram. It would be inappropriate, selfish and morally wrong to do otherwise.

The cynic in me thinks he doesn't want to set a precedent for Trump to justify pardoning himself, his cronies, family(?), and his rioters even.

 

[looker-on]

Well said Thomas!

Those Israeli hardliners have got Netanyahu dancing like a puppet on strings, and he's just as complicit willing to sell his soul and slaughter innocents just to stay in power.
Many Jews want him out too.

The offer of the NW of Australia to the Jews for a homeland in the 1930's was mainly stymied by Jewish procrastination, and then WWII started with Australia taking the deal off the table.
The region more specifically encompassed the Kimberly region in the north of our Western Australia.
In later decades many diamonds were found there with great wrealth to be made, and so it was. Also huge amounts of water, vast rivers, mines, abundent irrigated crops, dams, hydro power, ... On the downside is the hot and 'humid' weather which many, including me, can't handle. And there's lots of big Crocodiles!

And here's a bit of light relief!
View attachment 2856

I've been thinking about this pic and its caption since there was something that struck me immediately. Then I knew: As a satire it may be hilarious and that's probably what it is meant to be. This effect is lessened, however, by the fact that it lacks identification because there's virtually no common anti-immigration strategy in Europe as the pic insinuates. It only works on a national level, i.e., people of any country are less concerned about Europe as a whole being challenged by immigration but more about their individual country. IOW, Hungary wouldn't give a damn if Germany had to cope with an increasing number of immigrants. So, the cartoon may go down well with progressives as self-assurance but will have no impact on the right.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing, Terry. Who's the author?

 

[Grier]

I've been thinking about this pic and its caption since there was something that struck me immediately. Then I knew: As a satire it may be hilarious and that's probably what it is meant to be. This effect is lessened, however, by the fact that it lacks identification because there's virtually no common anti-immigration strategy in Europe as the pic insinuates. It only works on a national level, i.e., people of any country are less concerned about Europe as a whole being challenged by immigration but more about their individual country. IOW, Hungary wouldn't give a damn if Germany had to cope with an increasing number of immigrants. So, the cartoon may go down well with progressives as self-assurance but will have no impact on the right.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing, Terry. Who's the author?

My French brother in law in Paris sent it to me Thomas. That's all I know about its origins.

 

[looker-on]

My French brother in law in Paris sent it to me Thomas. That's all I know about its origins.

You're well-connected, Terry.

 

[Grier]

You're well-connected, Terry.

His English is as bad as my French so I use a translating app to communicate with him.
Marine Le Pen is a worry for the French with her hard right views and anti immigration stance. That stance seems more and more prevalent in other European countries too.
I agree most nations do look after their own self interests when it comes to immigrants. A growing commonality though.

 

[Richie]

anti immigration stance.

Pity Australia does not have the same stance. Only skilled immigrants and then even slash the current intake so they dont snatch jobs from Australians.

 

[Grier]

Pity Australia does not have the same stance. Only skilled immigrants and then even slash the current intake so they dont snatch jobs from Australians.

I agree with your sentiments Craig but I hear we desperately need certain skilled workers and their money to keep the economy ticking along.
We already have enough Baristas and Accountants! We need Teachers, Tradespeople, Doctors, Nurses, Miners, Construction workers, Miners, ... ...
Blame a lack of foresight on the mess.

 

[looker-on]

Marine Le Pen is a worry for the French with her hard right views and anti immigration stance. That stance seems more and more prevalent in other European countries too.

I agree, Le Pen had been a spectre for many in Europe and nobody knows what she and ex-Fascist Meloni are up to. What does it say about Germany's AfD party, when even Le Pen doesn't want them in her faction in the EU parliament?

 

[Kram81]

 

[Grier]

View attachment 2865

I heard today about the Opposition's plan to build a Nuclear power station in Muchea. That's 43km north from me, or a 31min drive Hmmn?
15 to 20 years to commission at huge cost, power more expensive to buy, risks, huge decommissioning costs and toxic waste .... and our lack of Nuclear expertise. We'll need more highly skilled migrants to run it.
There's many more Reactors planned for the Eastern states.

The good point is that it can act as a reliable power backup when it's cloudy and calm undoing the power production from renewables... Currently, renewables, especially solar in our sunny Oz, are cheap and off the shelf. Mostly imported.
With all our Lithium and rare earhs we should create an industry to manufacture our own electricity storage batteries. Also manufacturing our own solar panels spread over a big brown land. Even sheep like grazing under fields of solar panels.

 

[Richie]

There's many more Reactors planned for the Eastern states.

Libs planning 7 reactors. I am for it if they are the modular type and provided they are used alongside renewables. As you say Terry , we have all the raw materials incl uranium, to be a world clean energy powerhouse.

 

[Kram81]

I don't yet have a strong opinion either way on moving to nuclear power in Australia but I would have thought it wouldn't be a big vote winner and easy to campaign against.

Seems a strange move purely as politics.