Video Analysis Of Leg Spin Bowling..... Advise/ Suggestion Welcome!!!

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highesteem1

highesteem1

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Looks like an amazing action for his age, personally I reckon leave him to it for another 5 years and just keep him going the way he is. Probably too young to be trying to tweak the action, and it looks solid as it is. Maybe get him working more on non-bowling exercises like spinning the ball between his hands to develop more and more revs. Then as he gets bigger and stronger the action will develop itself. Most younger kids I've seen bowling leg spin don't impart many revs, they have just found a wrist angle to release the ball at that naturally spins the ball, but they don't make a conscious effort to really spin it hard.
 
highesteem1 said:
Dear
Thanx to Dave & Liz for their suggestions.....

these are the videos of a 10 yrs old leg spinner (Back & side View).
Need all participant's sincere review on bowling action, shoulder/ head/ foot position, non bowling arm/ bowling arm position, pivoting, hip rotation, weight transfer issues...

Links are:
Back View
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1HtwCOIebU
Side view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03tuj1m0ESQ
Side View 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISmSuclxaA4
Click to expand...

Well that looks very impressive to me. Does he have good control and accuracy?
When you look at the side on view he looks very Warnesque. I don't think I would be changing anything major. He is only 10. I would just be making sure no bad habits or technical problems creep in. He looks very powerful through his action. Just give him plenty of practice so he gets really comfortable with his action and so he understands the mechanics of his action and can fix the little problems when things do go wrong.
Good work.
 
@chippyben: Yes he is doing since last three yrs & hv sufficient control.... but tends to turn ball from legstamp so that he can do it like Warne.. he can also do wrong'un comfortably. One thing we notice that his front foot occasionally get swayed away from intended landing area and non bowling arm drops early.

@jim 2109; u r exactly right these age gp spinner prefer to do more wrist work as their fingers are not strong enough. he is trying to do spinning at concrete pitch so that he has to do real effort for spin. any specific drill u suggest for finger spin???
 
That looks like a really, really solid action. Much better than mine! If he's bowling well as he is, all you need to do is tell him his action looks good and make sure he keeps it that way. If he's having problems the only slight (very, very slight) issue I can see is that his delivery stride is perhaps a little wide and he doesn't get the full kick round with his right leg as he pivots round. But you really need to be positive and emphasise what's right about his action first so he can really understand and nail down those aspects rather than concentrate on amending any minor flaws, as that adjustment can often lead to other minor flaws that then have to be worked on and in my experience that just leads to lots of time wasted in a wild goose chase where you're worrying about relatively insignificant technical details rather than end result.
 
Really sound basic bowling action. High standard for his age and would go well here in his age group.

Just going on that back view clip mainly I reckon he is too over the top for legspin and needs to be more roundarmed. That's no big deal though, depending on how you break it to him and how he takes it. Easiest thing to practise in the backyard even going underarm but at least doing a lot of really roundarm stuff over a short distance and show him the differences between 12 o clock and 9 o clock (3 o clock ?) and aim for, all depends, half past ten ? or is that too late ? or early depending on how you look at it.

Would be good to see more clips with maybe a front on view behind stumps with no batsman. Imagine how good he will be in a couple of years!
 
Yeah, I couldn't see much wrong with his bowling either at his age, maybe just the over-rotation? As you've all suggested it sounds as though just let him be and see how he develops as he gets older and stronger? Jim's point about spinning the ball harder is a tricky call, my son bowls Leg Breaks and wrong Uns but does so with a natural action and if I try and suggest spinning the ball harder it tends to have a negative affect on him as it doesn't produce immediate results and causes problems which at his age and with attention span and need for tangible results simply puts him off of bowling Wrist Spin. I think with age and the continuation with playing cricket the need to spin the ball harder will become apparent as he gets older and the kids he plays against become more adept. What this will do (I hope) will create a need for intrinsic motivation, rather than hear someone else say 'You need to spin the ball harder' which is extrinsic motivation and not so compelling to a young boy. But as the boy gets older and he sees that he is becoming less affective with his 'Wrist Spinning' he'll get to that point where he'll have to make his own decisions as to how he needs to address the fact that he's being hit for fours and sixes and that's when he'll start experimenting and asking 'How do you get the ball to spin really hard'? Then you've got the makings of a Wrist Spinner.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah, I couldn't see much wrong with his bowling either at his age, maybe just the over-rotation? As you've all suggested it sounds as though just let him be and see how he develops as he gets older and stronger? Jim's point about spinning the ball harder is a tricky call, my son bowls Leg Breaks and wrong Uns but does so with a natural action and if I try and suggest spinning the ball harder it tends to have a negative affect on him as it doesn't produce immediate results and causes problems which at his age and with attention span and need for tangible results simply puts him off of bowling Wrist Spin. I think with age and the continuation with playing cricket the need to spin the ball harder will become apparent as he gets older and the kids he plays against become more adept. What this will do (I hope) will create a need for intrinsic motivation, rather than hear someone else say 'You need to spin the ball harder' which is extrinsic motivation and not so compelling to a young boy. But as the boy gets older and he sees that he is becoming less affective with his 'Wrist Spinning' he'll get to that point where he'll have to make his own decisions as to how he needs to address the fact that he's being hit for fours and sixes and that's when he'll start experimenting and asking 'How do you get the ball to spin really hard'? Then you've got the makings of a Wrist Spinner.
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Dave, my point wasn't necessarily to get him actually spinning the ball harder whilst bowling, as I know that is a sure-fire way to introduce inaccuracy and inconsistency, guaranteed. rather my suggestion is simply to get him practicing spinning the ball between hands to develop the muscles and the grip, so that as the rest of his body naturally develops, he will have the required hand/wrist strength to compliment it. simply by practicing that between hands, he will begin to introduce it into his action more and more anyway without being prompted. this is a more natural way I think than simply saying "spin the ball harder", because that implies try harder, trying harder means forcing the action rather than letting it flow, and then you tighten up and the ball flies in all directions. this still happens to me on a regular basis (sometimes I have to literally say to myself to just chill out and relax and stop trying too hard, and sure enough when you relax you find the rhythm and everything clicks back into place), so for a youngster who most likely lacks that self-understanding it could be disastrous for confidence and commitment.
 
@Dave & @ Jim
Nice discussion... one thing i should say here that whenever younger ones go for HARD finger spin (particularly while bowling in full run up), their bowling shoulder opens up or drops down as they tend to contract shoulder muscle more threby loop of the bowl get distorted and start pitching the ball shortof length. In my opinion they should do finger spin drill more in front of wall through underarm, round arm & overarm drill whereas during full pitch bowling be relaxed and enjoy as per their level of comfort.
 
highesteem1 said:
@Dave & @ Jim
Nice discussion... one thing i should say here that whenever younger ones go for HARD finger spin (particularly while bowling in full run up), their bowling shoulder opens up or drops down as they tend to contract shoulder muscle more threby loop of the bowl get distorted and start pitching the ball shortof length. In my opinion they should do finger spin drill more in front of wall through underarm, round arm & overarm drill whereas during full pitch bowling be relaxed and enjoy as per their level of comfort.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's probably the way to go, as they'll see the benefits in their spinning against the wall drills and then in their own time possibly introduce it to their bowling. Terry Jenner in the ECB video when demonstrating the importance of the stand start drill and emphasising the need to have a dynamic and powerful action that they can feel is right, says not to do the drill on a wicket or against the batsman initially as at that stage you should be interested in outcomes related to what happens to the ball. He gets the boys to bowl into the side of the nets, so that he can see their action and encourage them to practice it and feel their way through the bowling action. So in short Jim, yeah you're right and I miscontrued what you were driving at.
 
I have tried to compare with Shane Warne ( Dare to !!) Angle of delivery arm with vertical head position (Courtsey KINOVA). Shane has around 26 degree whereas mine is 17 degree. Any assesment & comments??

Usually Leggy from Australia used to bowl with wide round arm position ( Mcgill & Warne & S Smith). where as many Indian One Like Piyush Chawla, Amit Mishra bowl more close to head position ...ANY COMMENTS ??
 

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highesteem1 said:
I have tried to compare with Shane Warne ( Dare to !!) Angle of delivery arm with vertical head position (Courtsey KINOVA). Shane has around 26 degree whereas mine is 17 degree. Any assesment & comments??

Usually Leggy from Australia used to bowl with wide round arm position ( Mcgill & Warne & S Smith). where as many Indian One Like Piyush Chawla, Amit Mishra bowl more close to head position ...ANY COMMENTS ??
Click to expand...

Personally I'm more of your 'Indian' style with the more vertical arm (Benaud). There does seem to be some correlation with the vertical arm and being able to bowl a good Wrong Un. Although saying that I've just had a look at some video footage of my bowling today and I've been bowling with the arm lower than I expected, but I am trying out new ideas and as yet I've not settled into anything definite.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Personally I'm more of your 'Indian' style with the more vertical arm (Benaud). There does seem to be some correlation with the vertical arm and being able to bowl a good Wrong Un. Although saying that I've just had a look at some video footage of my bowling today and I've been bowling with the arm lower than I expected, but I am trying out new ideas and as yet I've not settled into anything definite.
Click to expand...

I prefer the Indian style too. I tried to go round arm but it just didn't work for me. If you get good turn with a high arm then you also get the advantages of a high arm. Improved accuracy as the point of release only affects length, not line and length. Also increased top spin which gets the lovely shape and dip on the delivery and gives you more pace on the delivery and off the pitch.
 
He's still young but some things to still focus on.

Push off that back foot more. It seems like he glides off his back foot into the delivery. It's ok if you want the ball loopy particularly at this age, but eventually when he grows he'll want to increase his potential.
You are obviously in the sub-continent so you are probably going to have coaches teach different lines to bowl. I think however he should promote bowling at the right handers blind spot i.e. on leg and just outside. This may help against batsman who are good with their feet and who like to drive.

Nice follow through and his arms finish nicely. Besides the lack of back foot power, he doesn't collapse his back leg which is great! However could do with a longer stride.

Sometimes has problems with his back knee and right shoulder at initial gather. Refer to image below. The universal rule for when you gather and jump then land on your back foot is to have your knee over your toes and your right shoulder directly above. As you can see from the image the bottom is better. But also notice the position of the hand. The top image is caused by early arm movements. The later you move your bowling arm changes both the angle of which you arm goes through and so in this case also changing the beginning reference point of the delivery stride.

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If he does take a longer step alongside a bigger drive off his foot it will alter his rhythm even further. He will need to begin movements of his right arm later.

It appears that batsman are reading him from the flight of the delivery. They wait a few deliveries and work out what type of flight is normal and work from there which ones to come down the pitch. Problems come about due to the flatter deliveries which the batsman comes down to. As he gets bigger it will be easier but keep the ball above the batters eye-line and he'll be ok.

Good young bowler with some good habits. Back leg though is the most important of all of the habits and consistency with later bowling arm and gather alignment are also considerations.
 
@doctortran
Great minute observation... few clarification required in this regard. by the way R u in coaching buisness or leggy urself!!!
1. if more push off of back foot practised then dont u think (1) he has to bend his back foot knee more which led to a (2) jerky movement of bowling shoulder to accomodate the extra push?
2. U r true that Leg/ Mid line is better for a leggy, but as finger twik is not strong (at this age) the turning of the ball is also less... hence we change the line to off & Middle line otherwise sub conti... batsmen are comfortable to play sweep or flick.
3. can you check the delivery stride in side view video... do u think he needs even bigger stride???
4.Any further suggestions for alignments during gathering?
 
highesteem1 said:
@doctortran
Great minute observation... few clarification required in this regard. by the way R u in coaching buisness or leggy urself!!!
1. if more push off of back foot practised then dont u think (1) he has to bend his back foot knee more which led to a (2) jerky movement of bowling shoulder to accomodate the extra push?
2. U r true that Leg/ Mid line is better for a leggy, but as finger twik is not strong (at this age) the turning of the ball is also less... hence we change the line to off & Middle line otherwise sub conti... batsmen are comfortable to play sweep or flick.
3. can you check the delivery stride in side view video... do u think he needs even bigger stride???
4.Any further suggestions for alignments during gathering?
Click to expand...

I think it is best if you consider me a passionate learner of throwing/bowling mechanics which includes leg spin.

1) Definitely do not bend the back knee more. It is about putting effort through the legs. It is about using the middle of the foot and the balls of the feet. It is about shifting the weight of your entire body forward using that one foot and leg. All that is only possible if your back foot is firmly planted into the ground for longer than what your son does.

2) I think what you say is true. However is it better to be put into a situation to grow and adapt ( of course with guidance to maintain that way), or grow up and develop that line at age 18 when most of the ability to learn at optimum age of 10 or 12 is gone? Kumble will never change his lines,lengths, and mechanics because he's bowled that way since his earliest development. Exceptions -- Shane Warne. Damn that man hehe!

3) I don't think he needs a bigger stride. I think it may help him grow as a spinner. I also think it is the next step. It depends on comfort level, willingness to try new things etc.

4) He could definitely improve his posture. This would require a leg bend, but less! A very bent leg lets all the energy into the ground instead of moving straight forward. Also something I've been harping on about a lot lately -- get your weight more over your back leg rather than your buttocks. You end up getting more weight ending onto your right arm. This translates to power.
 
shrek said:
Forgive my ignorance - what is siliconlive ?
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It's another website, where you're able to upload your videos for anlaysis and Liz and other people can analyse your bowling actions and draw lines all over them and freeze frames in the process of explaining what it is you're doing right or wrong. At the moment Liz is on there making comments, but the idea is that more people sign up to it and grow a community of Wrist Spinners and the likes. It's like an extention to this forum, but no-where near as easy to use, it's a bit slow and a pain to get used to and populated by loads of other sports. If you persevere with it, you can make sense of it eventually.
 
@shrek: sorry for being late to respond due to different time zone... allready answered by Dave in crisp... really slow site, and moreover u can not locate who are the members from cricketing or related fraternity..
ONE SUGGESTION for Adminitrator
  • Is it possible to categorise members here in different sub category like coach (Batting/ Bowling)/ fielding/ fitness), professional player, batsman, pacer, biomechanic expert,nutritionist, Enthusiast etc..
  • It will be good if we add video analyser (like Quintic, Kinovea, skill spector) for online analysis by the expert
Just a suggestion for consideration
 
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