Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Top Contributors
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah that's a difficult situation and I can totally see where you're coming from. I've had this policy of giving everyone a go, but this weekend we came up against an opposition that looked like ours - 7 kids 4 blokes. They put us in first having won the toss, one thing led to another and my older son who, if you gave him the choice of sawing his finger off with a rust razor blade or umpire, he'd go for the rusty razor ended up umpiring at the bowlers end. Needless to say our best batsman who was looking to occupy the crease for the whole match had pad/bat combo and my son gave him out surrounded by about 6 players all screaming OWZAT!!!! in his face. The bloke was not pleased claiming it hit the bat first. My son is not an umpire. Anyway they bowled us out cheaply 120 odd, but we had some good bowlers and I went for an approach of - if you're economic and looking like you're going to get a wicket you stay on. I ended up using 3 bowlers. One 19 year old I mistakenly let bowl 24 overs, my son bowled 12 in two spells and an old finger spinner bowled the rest. All three of them bowled very tightly and the two seamers took 8 wickets. But two little kids at the end batted superbly and took all afternoon and we couldn't bowl em out and they won with just a couple of overs to spare. I didn't even bowl myself. But - like your game it did feel like that there was a lot of blokes there that had paid £12 to have a day in the field - especially the LBW bloke.

Back at the clubhouse he'd been back before me and mentioned it to everyone and when I got there one of the clubs senior blokes said 'How'd it go Thommo'? so I mentioned it and he said 'Well... if he don't like it - go and play football, it happens... that's cricket for you'. Which I thought was true. It's quite tricky this captaincy lark. Hopefully I can get back to a situation where everyone gets a go at bowling this week? I guess that scenario that you speak of - sitting there knowing you're not going to bowl comes down to making a decision about improving your batting and also accepting that it's not going to go in your favour every week if you see yourself as batter as well? Or you simply have to get that much better as a wrist spinner so that they can't leave you out of the equation. Or as I do - try and enjoy your fielding?
Click to expand...


I think that sounds fair enough Dave. If you've got a chance of winning a game when you're struggling all season, you gotta go for it all out.

That said, 24 overs is crazy, especially for a seamer. I can't believe the rules let you do that.
 
SLA said:
I think that sounds fair enough Dave. If you've got a chance of winning a game when you're struggling all season, you gotta go for it all out.

That said, 24 overs is crazy, especially for a seamer. I can't believe the rules let you do that.
Click to expand...
They don't, I'm in trouble over it! The bloke lied to me and no-one else said anything about it.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
They don't, I'm in trouble over it! The bloke lied to me and no-one else said anything about it.
Click to expand...

All the rules over who can bowl what gets a bit silly. The one that restricts the number of overs a young seamer can bowl whilst a young spinner can bowl as many as he wants is very silly indeed.

If you were lied to, then you can't really be blamed.

The umpiring this is a tricky one as well. I do not like umpiring at all but find I often have to do it because so many of our players are just not capable of umpiring. Mainly because, just as your lad did, they buckle under the pressure of an appeal. Most players shout that little bit louder when the umpire is a young lad. I remember a young lad giving me out stumped last season after the keeper shouted for it. I could see the panic in the young lad's face and, naturally, he crumbled and gave me out. Afterwards, the keeper said he didn't think my foot was out of the crease and was surprised I'd been given out.

We have another lad who got nicknamed Clint Eastwood because of how quick he is in getting that finger out of his pocket and in the air. He gave one right-handed batter LBW to a right arm bowler who was around the wicket after the ball hit the batter, pretty much, on his backside. I was stood at square-leg and could see it was going over, but I also realised that it's next to impossible for this bowler to get an LBW from around the wicket because the ball will either pitch outside leg or it if pitches on the stumps it has to straighten a huge amount (not to mention that if it has come back and hit the batter on the backside, then it has to be going down). The appeal was an absolute belter and Clint shot the air quicksmart. The out batter happened to be the captain and he threw his bat and stormed off. As he walked past me I reminded him that perhaps he should think twice about having Clint at the stumps in future. That said, the only way for these folks to learn is to make mistakes and get bollocked for them!

Having said all that, as a bowler, I hate all this self-umpiring business. LBW's are a rare bird in my neck of the woods.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Yeah, I was young lad (about 17yo or 18yo) and was carrying a good 3-4 stone too much. By chance, I fell into that 20/4 diet and lost 4 stone in 6 months. It definitely works if you want to lose weight. I could do with shifting 1-2 stone now but the problem I have now that I didn't have when I was 17yo-18yo is beer ;)

I like to have a drink on a Saturday night. Only about 4 pints, but I also end up eating something afterwards so that Saturday night is a blow out. If I didn't have a drink on a Saturday, I would be back down my fighting weight. I don't mind though. I know I can shift that little bit of weight whenever I want to.

The thing that really interests me is how fasting impacts healing and cell repair. The fasting itself is actually very easy. The influence of ghrelin is the big factor because that is what leaves you feeling hungry. But ghrelin is produced in accordance with your circadian rhythm and normal eating habits. In other words, within a week or two, you cease to feel hungry in that 20 hour period of fasting because you have retrained your biological response to not eating.

As I say, I would like to see much more detailed studies of the effect of fasting on biological reparation because there are some very bold statements about how fasting reduces the risk of things like cancer, as well as the impact on mental well being. For the time being, I see fasting as simply a way to control your weight.
Click to expand...
This was the latest:
Fasting for three days can regenerate entire immune system, study finds - Telegraph

I would go further. I know my health has really been rescued by fasting - the first three day fast I did (about a year ago) sorted a load of problems out for me, and indeed I'm playing cricket again now while before March (when I started IF) I wouldn't run for a bus! To what extent repair is happening (DNA level?) I don't know, but whatever, I am convinced that for me it's been an incredibly good thing and something I want to make a lifestyle of.

I am not waiting for orthodox medical science to declare agreement. Their business is very deeply corrupted by the drug giants, and most of them will have to be dragged kicking and screaming.
 
boogiespinner said:
This was the latest:
Fasting for three days can regenerate entire immune system, study finds - Telegraph

I would go further. I know my health has really been rescued by fasting - the first three day fast I did (about a year ago) sorted a load of problems out for me, and indeed I'm playing cricket again while before March I wouldn't run for a bus! To what extent repair is happening (DNA level?) I don't know, but whatever, I am convinced that for me it's been an incredibly good thing and something I want to make a lifestyle of.

I am not waiting for orthodox medical science to declare agreement. Their business is very deeply corrupted by the drug giants, and most of them will have to be dragged kicking and screaming.
Click to expand...

That's fascinating stuff that the entire immune system is regenerated by ridding the body of the damaged and ineffcient parts. A 3 day fast sounds a long time to me, but from what I've read it's not as bad as you think it will be. Plus, it's not something you would do on a regular basis. Maybe once every 6 months or so.

I've been doing this 20 hour fasting thing for a year or so now. A few times I've felt a cold coming on only for it to fade within 24 hours. That was until a month ago when I came down with a cold and it hung around for a week. I was actually taken aback that my immune system didn't sort it out within 24 hours.

You're right though about waiting for medical science to catch up with this. I first read about this in an article by Michael Brooks and he did mention that waiting for it to become accepted scientific fact could take a while. He mentioned a very prominent scientist who fasts. It's so tricky to listen to these "experts". There are some very highly respected clinicians who don't believe in using statins for patients with heart problems and there are equally respected clinicians who do. Who to believe if you have a heart condition?

In this instance, you can dip your toe in the water with a day's fasting and see how it goes. If you are a reasonably healthy person then it won't do you any harm and it's probably the best way to determine whether it's for you or not.
 
Cleanprophet said:
All the rules over who can bowl what gets a bit silly. The one that restricts the number of overs a young seamer can bowl whilst a young spinner can bowl as many as he wants is very silly indeed.

If you were lied to, then you can't really be blamed.

The umpiring this is a tricky one as well. I do not like umpiring at all but find I often have to do it because so many of our players are just not capable of umpiring. Mainly because, just as your lad did, they buckle under the pressure of an appeal. Most players shout that little bit louder when the umpire is a young lad. I remember a young lad giving me out stumped last season after the keeper shouted for it. I could see the panic in the young lad's face and, naturally, he crumbled and gave me out. Afterwards, the keeper said he didn't think my foot was out of the crease and was surprised I'd been given out.

We have another lad who got nicknamed Clint Eastwood because of how quick he is in getting that finger out of his pocket and in the air. He gave one right-handed batter LBW to a right arm bowler who was around the wicket after the ball hit the batter, pretty much, on his backside. I was stood at square-leg and could see it was going over, but I also realised that it's next to impossible for this bowler to get an LBW from around the wicket because the ball will either pitch outside leg or it if pitches on the stumps it has to straighten a huge amount (not to mention that if it has come back and hit the batter on the backside, then it has to be going down). The appeal was an absolute belter and Clint shot the air quicksmart. The out batter happened to be the captain and he threw his bat and stormed off. As he walked past me I reminded him that perhaps he should think twice about having Clint at the stumps in future. That said, the only way for these folks to learn is to make mistakes and get bollocked for them!

Having said all that, as a bowler, I hate all this self-umpiring business. LBW's are a rare bird in my neck of the woods.
Click to expand...

Whenever I've played games with supposed "neutral" umpires, if anything they've been more biased. Plus its impossible to ever find anyone to do it.


Our rules are very simple, 40 overs, 10 overs max per bowler, so you need at least 4 bowlers, preferably 5.
 
Liz Ward said:
As for ECB directives it depends on the date of his birth Dave... was he 19 at midnight on the 31st August? If so, no problem, however, you may have different league rules.
Click to expand...
Yeah when I was reprimanded the club officials said that this bloke wont be able to bowl unlimited till the 2015 season. Yeah the rules are the same. He can bowl 14 max at the moment in two spells. 7 per spell or in 3 spells if in smaller continuous overs.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah when I was reprimanded the club officials said that this bloke wont be able to bowl unlimited till the 2015 season. Yeah the rules are the same. He can bowl 14 max at the moment in two spells. 7 per spell or in 3 spells if in smaller continuous overs.
Click to expand...
Not sure when that changed... Tony will be able to clarify... but I am working with 18 max per day [7 per spell].

He probably did not 'lie' to you, the directive is for U19 and he probably believed this did not apply to him as he was 19 at the time.

http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/ecb-fast-bowling-directives-2010-10763.pdf
 
Liz Ward said:
He probably did not 'lie' to you, the directive is for U19 and he probably believed this did not apply to him as he was 19 at the time.
Click to expand...

You're probably spot on there. They change these rules so often that the younger players often don't even know how many they can bowl in total and how many in a spell. Really, the players just should know how many they can bowl from the first game of the season and inform the captain if the captain doesn't know the player well. It's not easy for the captain with all the other stuff going on, but if you're being a little pedantic then the captain should know the ages of the younger players and the restrictions on them before the game starts. But as I say, you usually rely on the player himself to know.
 
Cleanprophet, sorry but its not 'a little pedantic' for the captain to know what age band his junior (under 19) players are - its just another duty of captaincy. In fairness it should be someones responsibility (generally either junior co-ordinator or club welfare officer) to provide captains with the information they require and most leagues operate some sort of team card system which would then notify the opposition of any under 19s involved in the game.

Posting the regs on here again in the hope that any captains reading the thread who have never seen this before will take note (it really isn't rocket science):
http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/3139-nfc-fastbowling-2013-p269-270-lr-12404.pdf

Also in terms of your comment earlier that the difference in rules between quicks and spinners being 'silly', that may or may not be the case and we can argue long and hard about the causes of injuries in young fast bowlers, but at the end of the day the regs are in place, everyone knows them (or should) so its just something the captain must deal with. Personally I find it much easier to captain an adult side playing 45 overs than dealing with a junior team playing T20 and the chopping and changing that involves.
 
TonyM said:
Cleanprophet, sorry but its not 'a little pedantic' for the captain to know what age band his junior

Also in terms of your comment earlier that the difference in rules between quicks and spinners being 'silly', that may or may not be the case and we can argue long and hard
Click to expand...

It's my opinion that it is a little pedantic because the rules are a little pedantic. Cricket is stuffed with pedants and they come to the fore in all their stupidfying glory in this particular area. For my money, a captain's job is to lead his team and win matches - not worry about whether a bowler can 4 overs or whether he has turned 15yo and can bowl one more. How bloody pathetic is that? Especially when these very same youngesters bowl for hours on end in the nets.

We can't argue long and hard about difference in the regs for bowling seam and spin because I'm not entertaining such an argument. As a spin bowler myself, I know very well the stresses and strains on the body and to allow a youngster to bowl unlimited overs of spin whilst limiting the number of seam they can bowl is silly. I've seen youngsters turn to spin bowling simply so that they can bowl a lot more overs. Liz will tell you about the young spin bowlers she has seen with injuries to the gluteus medius as they attempt to bowl beyond their physical means. Limiting the number of overs a young bowler can bowl is fair enough because some of them will push themselves too much. But I think the control over such things should fall to the umpire or the scorer or someone other than the captain.
 
Cleanprophet said:
It's my opinion that it is a little pedantic because the rules are a little pedantic. Cricket is stuffed with pedants and they come to the fore in all their stupidfying glory in this particular area. For my money, a captain's job is to lead his team and win matches - not worry about whether a bowler can 4 overs or whether he has turned 15yo and can bowl one more. How bloody pathetic is that? Especially when these very same youngesters bowl for hours on end in the nets.

We can't argue long and hard about difference in the regs for bowling seam and spin because I'm not entertaining such an argument. As a spin bowler myself, I know very well the stresses and strains on the body and to allow a youngster to bowl unlimited overs of spin whilst limiting the number of seam they can bowl is silly. I've seen youngsters turn to spin bowling simply so that they can bowl a lot more overs. Liz will tell you about the young spin bowlers she has seen with injuries to the gluteus medius as they attempt to bowl beyond their physical means. Limiting the number of overs a young bowler can bowl is fair enough because some of them will push themselves too much. But I think the control over such things should fall to the umpire or the scorer or someone other than the captain.
Click to expand...
I suspect that any responsible person could be put in charge of managing such matters by assignment - but the problem there is there isn't usually a dedicated umpire for the lower levels of club cricket and maybe not a dedicated scorer either (and as the scorer is off the field it would be unreasonable to expect him/her to control a game) so really it has to fall to the captain.

I would say your best approach Dave is just to hold your hand up, write that as a novice captain you weren't aware of the restriction in this particular case, the player involved unwittingly gave incorrect information, you're quite embarrassed because you take your duty of care quite seriously and now being fully apprised of the regulations you won't make such a mistake again. Also, be helpful if the player reports shoulder as being fine.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
This bloke isn't a regular in my team, I just knew he was around that age and he's quite knowledgeable on the rules/law usually. He turned up and I asked how many are you allowed to bowl these days mate and he said all day Dave, I'm 19. I went with that.
Click to expand...

He probably is 19yo. He can vote, drive, pay taxes, start a family, drink and get married (not necessarily in that order ;) ) but he can't decide when he is fit or not to bowl. They've got to have regulations, but where they draw the lines is where they get it wrong.
 
Cleanprophet said:
He probably is 19yo. He can vote, drive, pay taxes, start a family, drink and get married (not necessarily in that order ;) ) but he can't decide when he is fit or not to bowl. They've got to have regulations, but where they draw the lines is where they get it wrong.
Click to expand...
Looking again he can bowl - 7 + 14 over break, another 7 and a 14 over break and then another 4 making a total of 18. Or smaller spells with equivalent breaks in between.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Looking again he can bowl - 7 + 14 over break, another 7 and a 14 over break and then another 4 making a total of 18. Or smaller spells with equivalent breaks in between.
Click to expand...

How many overs do you play? Does your league not have rules on the maximum any bowler can bowl? Most leagues have limits of either 10 or 12.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Looking again he can bowl - 7 + 14 over break, another 7 and a 14 over break and then another 4 making a total of 18. Or smaller spells with equivalent breaks in between.
Click to expand...

That's bizarre. So if you have 3 or 4 bowlers at under-18 level and below, you've got to work all that out during the match. "He's had two spells, so he can bowl another 4 later on. This lad can bowl 4, or is he 15yo? And this lad is 16yo, so how many can he bowl in his second spell?". Usually, you pick your changes according to how the match is going and how the bowlers are doing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top