Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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Chino#21 said:
Bowling fast can only get you so far, there are bowlers who play club cricket here that have been measured with speedometers and can bowl speeds ranging from 130kph to 150kph, but they aren't near the international level yet.
To be effective against the best teams you need accuracy, coupled with swing and pace. Having pace means nothing if you can't bowl in the right areas so it's a fruitless endeavor to try and bowl as fast as you possibly can, but without taking wickets and conceding 4 wides when you bounce the ball over the keeper.
I recall reading about an English wicket keeper (can't remember who, but he's very well known) who could bowl 130kph+ at 15, but bowled full tosses at the rib cage all the time so he was useless as a bowler. Vernon Philander is a great example of using accuracy to take wickets as a seam bowler.
Shahidpak asked how they do it, one thing that I know adds quite a lot of pace is having a braced front leg. There are many articles and videos that discuss this, and it's something that spinners can use as well.
Mitchell Johnson gets most of his pace from his slingy action, by that I mean an action where the bowling arm comes through much later than in a normal action, allowing the muscles to wind up and release the energy in a more whiplike manner. Not neccesarily a low arm action but it usually is.
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I dont totally agree with you, i believe that the most important element in fast bowling is pace... Line length and swing can be taught by a good coach, just like spin is the most important aspect of spin bowling pace is the most important of fast bowling.
 
Chino#21 said:
Bowling fast can only get you so far, there are bowlers who play club cricket here that have been measured with speedometers and can bowl speeds ranging from 130kph to 150kph, but they aren't near the international level yet.
To be effective against the best teams you need accuracy, coupled with swing and pace. Having pace means nothing if you can't bowl in the right areas so it's a fruitless endeavor to try and bowl as fast as you possibly can, but without taking wickets and conceding 4 wides when you bounce the ball over the keeper.
I recall reading about an English wicket keeper (can't remember who, but he's very well known) who could bowl 130kph+ at 15, but bowled full tosses at the rib cage all the time so he was useless as a bowler. Vernon Philander is a great example of using accuracy to take wickets as a seam bowler.
Shahidpak asked how they do it, one thing that I know adds quite a lot of pace is having a braced front leg. There are many articles and videos that discuss this, and it's something that spinners can use as well.
Mitchell Johnson gets most of his pace from his slingy action, by that I mean an action where the bowling arm comes through much later than in a normal action, allowing the muscles to wind up and release the energy in a more whiplike manner. Not neccesarily a low arm action but it usually is.
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Hadlee is probably the ultimate example of sacrificing pace for accuracy, although he originally did it so he could get through the then heavy county cricket workload.

In NZ there are guys who also naturally have pace but as per where you're from they are never as successful as the slower guys who work harder and are more accurate. The super quicks that put in the hard work and have the accuracy are the ones to be afraid of. My highest batting achievement was avoiding facing Shane Bond in a club match, f**k me he was quick, accurate and the ball was swinging in a mile! Not too sure how many singles I turned down but I sure ran those 2's hard!

Yep, the one thing that adds pace for most people is the braced straight front leg. Surprisingly tough to make natural if you don't do it already.
 
shahidpak said:
I dont totally agree with you, i believe that the most important element in fast bowling is pace... Line length and swing can be taught by a good coach, just like spin is the most important aspect of spin bowling pace is the most important of fast bowling.
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I think what he is saying is that it is better to have a bit of pace along with control and movement than to have plenty of pace and very little control.

The bowler at my club who is 130-135 has decent control but he does nothing with the ball at all. It's straight up and down. Against the better batters, he causes few problems. The previous season the club had a bowler who was in the 120-125 range but bowled with a really nice shape, swinging the ball both ways. He was very effective.

leftie600 said:
Yep, the one thing that adds pace for most people is the braced straight front leg. Surprisingly tough to make natural if you don't do it already.
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I can't do it. I've tried it and it felt very uncomfortable. I've noticed plenty of fast bowlers who don't brace their leg (Johnson being one of them), but it most definitely helps. The one thing I think is crucial is a really flexible wrist. Mohammad Zahid played plenty in our club's league (before I joined up) and he was described by Lara as the fastest bowler he ever faced. I saw him playing last season and he was around 120-125, but he was bowling well within himself because he's not a young fella anymore and has had back problems. A couple of our players played with and against him about 6 or 7 years ago and both spoke about how fast he was. Our keeper said he was stood a mile back and was still taking the ball around his ears. The other player, who faced him, is a decent batter and a useful seam bowler. He said the one thing that really stood out about Mohammad Zahid was that flick of the wrist. He recalled a time when a batter he was batting with pulled Zahid for a 6 that only led to Zahid really putting in and peppering this poor batter with some horribly fierce short stuff.
 
I should be looking to keep my back and head straight and steady from the start off my run up all the way to the end of my follow through.

Is this a true statement?
 
Chino#21 said:
Not entirely correct. Stiaan van Zyl is bowling gentle medium pace at 110kph against the West Indies, and he is getting through a lot of overs with an economy rate of under 3 per over. He only has accuracy and swing to assist him.
As a spin bowler you can still get away with spinning the ball huge and bowling a few bad balls, like Stuart Macgill. As a fast bowler you have to be acccurate, you can't just bowl fast. Morne Morkel is the fastest bowler in the Proteas' bowling line-up, and ironically the least succesful. Steyn, Philander and Kallis bowl(ed) with reasonable pace, swing, accuracy and had a plan. If you look at how Morkel bowls, it's basically flat out pace but no consistency. He was bowling faster than Mitchell Johnson at one stage in his career but gifted the batsman two 4-balls an over.
Both him and Steyn have had to slow down a bit to become more accurate. It's usually the older, more experienced fast bowlers that do this. Glenn Mcgrath is another good example of accuracy above pace.
I'd say swing to a pacer is more like spin to a spinner, to make an analogy. The more the better in either case. And of course the more at high speeds the better. We spinners also try to get maximum purchase at the best speed possible, Anil Kumble was great at combining pace and spin effectively. Fast bowlers try to make the ball swing (or potentially reverse swing) at the best pace possible.
And as you said: line length and swing can be taught by a good coach. Which is precisely what makes it the most important. Those things are the basics and solid basics make you consistent.
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Well steyn still bowls 130+, and i dont mean the fastest boxlers will be the best, but you need to be able to bowl at least at 130+ and im sure that van zyl sont be as succesful as faster bowlers
 
I try to brave my front leg. When. I bowl pace. Just for fun but my brother says he cant do it because its very uncomfortable and he feels as if his knee will break if he does it....
 
shahidpak said:
I dont totally agree with you, i believe that the most important element in fast bowling is pace... Line length and swing can be taught by a good coach, just like spin is the most important aspect of spin bowling pace is the most important of fast bowling.
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If you are accurate and don't spin the bowler you are not a spin bowler. If you spin the ball but are not accurate you will not get very far.

Same for pace as well.
 
leftie600 said:
If you are accurate and don't spin the bowler you are not a spin bowler. If you spin the ball but are not accurate you will not get very far.

Same for pace as well.
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Yes, my point is that if you dont have live length it can be easily taught but ripping the ball cant really be taught if toi get used to not spinnin g the ball a lot, same for pace
 
shahidpak said:
Well Theoretically you do spin the bowl backwards when you bowl pace..... ;):D
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You do, but not always. There is a video clip quite a few pages back that SLA posted of a baseball pitcher delivering a knuckle ball with no spin at all on the ball. A few days ago, I watched a Big Bash game and saw a bowler (can't remember his name at the moment) bowl a ball with the knuckle ball release and the ball came out with very, very little spin. It is very effective because it really does behave differently through the air.
 
Cleanprophet said:
You do, but not always. There is a video clip quite a few pages back that SLA posted of a baseball pitcher delivering a knuckle ball with no spin at all on the ball. A few days ago, I watched a Big Bash game and saw a bowler (can't remember his name at the moment) bowl a ball with the knuckle ball release and the ball came out with very, very little spin. It is very effective because it really does behave differently through the air.
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You see that effect sometimes on the slow motion replay as the ball wobbles strangely through to the keeper without spin after pitching.
 
Do any spinners here bowl a knuckle ball or what is effectively a 'nothing' ball?

I've bowled one or two every now and then and the effects in the air are unpredictable but can be useful because of that.
 
leftie600 said:
Do any spinners here bowl a knuckle ball or what is effectively a 'nothing' ball?

I've bowled one or two every now and then and the effects in the air are unpredictable but can be useful because of that.
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I've looked at it a couple of times as a possible variations, when I had severe Googly syndrome I explored the idea a bit as a means to bowl a variation, I think I gave it a go in a few games, but probably didn't put the time in to develop the delivery to the point it was useful. Again I think it's one of those balls you could probably use when you've got the psychological edge over the batsman and you're in complete control of the situation?
 
Anyone watch the last over today at the SCG with Lyons bowling at Kumar? I could see where 10 of the fielders were, but there was one bloke off camera, any idea where he was?
 
Diificult I'd say. Knuckleballers are like baseball's legspinners. Notoriously difficult to do and when it goes wrong they get smashed. With cricket the knuckleball is far less incisive because after pitching it's sanitized. I can't see how it can come out of the hand other than very slowly. I would have thought it might make a slower ball variation for quicks, pitched right up. I'd be surprised if a spin bowler could make it a useful variation.
 
Cleanprophet said:
You do, but not always. There is a video clip quite a few pages back that SLA posted of a baseball pitcher delivering a knuckle ball with no spin at all on the ball. A few days ago, I watched a Big Bash game and saw a bowler (can't remember his name at the moment) bowl a ball with the knuckle ball release and the ball came out with very, very little spin. It is very effective because it really does behave differently through the air.
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Lol i was joking man
 
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