Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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Cleanprophet said:
About 3 weeks ago or so, when I first tried the longer run in, I also incorporated that front arm change of pulling down hard at the target. That's when I first started to get the legspinners coming out again. For some reason, I got preoccupied with other things and forgot to carry on pulling down hard with that front arm. The last time I did it was a couple of weeks ago when the club captain remarked on the amount of loop I was getting. Also, what I found was that my arm/shoulder was a bit stiff for a day or two (just like when you bowl for the first time in months), which indicated that my whole action was a lot more energetic. Whether that was down to the new run in, the work of the front arm or both, I don't know (I suspect a bit of both). As I say, for some reason I haven't been thinking about really using that front arm in the last couple of weeks.

I suppose you want to know how it felt to use that front arm with a full run in? Actually, it wasn't too bad. It did feel a little more awkward than doing it in a stand start and step start, but not too bad. I just thought about keeping the arm higher for a little longer. Doing that sort of naturally led into me then pulling the arm down hard and at the target. I think it will take a few weeks before you start doing it naturally and it may well be that you always have to remind yourself to pull down hard with that front arm. That's ok. Most bowlers will have one or two things that they repeat to themselves. As we know, Warne would think "think high, spin up". Many, many batters simply say to themselves "watch the ball, watch the ball". I just tend to think "pull hard at offstump".

Once you get it all synced up nicely, you will find it hugely helpful.
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I've just videoed myself trying to produce the bowing action without a ball and it's very interesting. I'm going to try and take that onto the field this afternoon against my son and see how it goes, more to come this evening with vids and pictures. It's all very interesting...

This is a locked video so I think you can only access it via a link that I share. But I though this looked very promising in the context of the re-construction of my bowling action.
 
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Dave the ball at 31-35 seconds - AWESOME.

and you are bracing / pivoting quite nicely on the next ball as well.

I don't know what you were working on but man I could hardly believe what I was seeing with those two!

Also the very last ball.
 
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boogiespinner said:
Dave the ball at 31-35 seconds - AWESOME.

and you are bracing / pivoting quite nicely on the next ball as well.

I don't know what you were working on but man I could hardly believe what I was seeing with those two!

Also the very last ball.
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Yeah, I'm not working on the pivot yet, but I threw a few in there to see if I could still hold the whole thing together. I'm still working with the leading arm, it feels a lot more organised as though I know what I'm doing with it, but I'm now wondering whether the arm should be extended and reaching forwards? We've had the clubs funday today and I've been bowling against the under 15's and youth players and a couple of adults and they've all noticed the significant difference. At one point someone (frank Farrington) said - don't bowl the darts, toss it up more, so I'm obviously getting more speed. Cheers for the positive comment, I do feel like there's been some significant improvements, I just need the weather to hold out all the way through the rest of September and hopefully all of October so that I can carry on working with this. One thing happened today - When I'm bowling against a batsman I obviously put more effort into the bowling as I was called No-Ball a few times, so I've had to extend the run up another 2'.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I've just videoed myself trying to produce the bowing action without a ball and it's very interesting. I'm going to try and take that onto the field this afternoon against my son and see how it goes, more to come this evening with vids and pictures. It's all very interesting...

This is a locked video so I think you can only access it via a link that I share. But I though this looked very promising in the context of the re-construction of my bowling action.
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That looks ten times better. It all just looks so much more energetic and rhythmical.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah, I'm not working on the pivot yet, but I threw a few in there to see if I could still hold the whole thing together. I'm still working with the leading arm, it feels a lot more organised as though I know what I'm doing with it, but I'm now wondering whether the arm should be extended and reaching forwards? We've had the clubs funday today and I've been bowling against the under 15's and youth players and a couple of adults and they've all noticed the significant difference. At one point someone (frank Farrington) said - don't bowl the darts, toss it up more, so I'm obviously getting more speed. Cheers for the positive comment, I do feel like there's been some significant improvements, I just need the weather to hold out all the way through the rest of September and hopefully all of October so that I can carry on working with this. One thing happened today - When I'm bowling against a batsman I obviously put more effort into the bowling as I was called No-Ball a few times, so I've had to extend the run up another 2'.
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All sounds very promising. That bowling in the second video is a lot better than what you were doing just last week. The energy is much better and the momentum is much more towards the target. I was going to say something about your front arm but you already got in there and said it yourself. It does tend to fold in quite quickly. I would say that you could keep it up for a bit longer than you are. Someone like Pravin Tambe would have that front arm still out at the target at the point that the bowling arm is at shoulder height (so that both arms are at shoulder height) and then as the bowling arm rises, the front arm comes down, almost like a see-saw. Most bowlers drop the front arm a little earlier than that but your arm is already tucked in before your bowling arm has got above head height. We're talking small margins here by the way. That first video (with you not releasing the ball), your front arm does come down a little later. If you look at my video, it is similar. In your second video, it comes down a bit earlier.

It might be worth trying to hold it up for a little bit longer and see how it feels. There's still some balls that are a little off target and maybe holding that front arm up a little bit longer may help with that. You certainly seem to be using that front arm much more and that is showing in more energy on the ball. But maybe delaying the use of that front arm just a little bit will help with balance and then consistency?

As a guide, I would suggest that your front arm should be tucking in just as your bowling hand is getting to its highest point. At the moment it is tucking in as your bowling had is behind you and at about head height.
 
Had my last game of the season today and it wasn't great. The pitch, if you can call it a pitch, was a horrible pudding of a pitch. I didn't know whether to bring my bat or a spoon and a pot of custard! You could definitely push your finger into the pitch quite easily. Absolutely no pace and no bounce. Tracks like that just give lesser batters all the time in the world and it encourages slogging. You either bowl it quicker and with lots of overspin or you bowl it slower and fuller and force the batter to take the initiative. It was so slow that the option of bowling it quicker and with overspin wasn't really on because even then the batter is able to adjust when he is beaten. None of it really helped my bowling action and the problems I've been having. I wanted to bowl off a short run up and focus on getting a series of legspinners out. In the end, I had to bowl off the full run up and try to rip the ball to get some loop. It was just too awkward. It was just like putting a set of stumps in the middle of a field and bowling to them.

I bowled 5 overs and suggested to the captain that he should make a bowling change and try and get a wicket that way. No idea what my figures were at that point (probably something like 0 for 25 from 5). I did bowl some decent balls and beat the bat a number of times. But it was annoying bowling to a fairly poor bat who was able to get on the back foot and slog anything that was marginally short on account of it being so horribly slow. I came back on for one more over when they needed about 8 or 9 runs and they got them off that over. Our home pitch is a proper pitch (still probably nowhere near as hard as pro pitch) and I'm getting sick of going to these smaller clubs and playing on their slow pudding pitches that just give weak batters that little bit more time to play.

Ahh well, that's the season finished anyway and now I can focus squarely on getting my action sorted. Next season, I won't be playing on any of these horrible pitches. I'll either play in the competitive teams or play only home games.

I remember one game in North Wales when we had the club captain and first team captain both batting for us. The pitch was terrible. Not as slow as many others, but uneven bounce and lots of turn. They both said that pitches like that almost require slogging for you to get runs. Batting properly often goes unrewarded on such poor pitches. Many club sides play on these pitches and slog because of it. It's just a different game when you play on these non-cricket wickets. Everything you've learned to do is almost thrown out of the window in favour of bowling pies and slogging!
 
Cleanprophet said:
Had my last game of the season today and it wasn't great. The pitch, if you can call it a pitch, was a horrible pudding of a pitch. I didn't know whether to bring my bat or a spoon and a pot of custard! You could definitely push your finger into the pitch quite easily. Absolutely no pace and no bounce. Tracks like that just give lesser batters all the time in the world and it encourages slogging. You either bowl it quicker and with lots of overspin or you bowl it slower and fuller and force the batter to take the initiative. It was so slow that the option of bowling it quicker and with overspin wasn't really on because even then the batter is able to adjust when he is beaten. None of it really helped my bowling action and the problems I've been having. I wanted to bowl off a short run up and focus on getting a series of legspinners out. In the end, I had to bowl off the full run up and try to rip the ball to get some loop. It was just too awkward. It was just like putting a set of stumps in the middle of a field and bowling to them.

I bowled 5 overs and suggested to the captain that he should make a bowling change and try and get a wicket that way. No idea what my figures were at that point (probably something like 0 for 25 from 5). I did bowl some decent balls and beat the bat a number of times. But it was annoying bowling to a fairly poor bat who was able to get on the back foot and slog anything that was marginally short on account of it being so horribly slow. I came back on for one more over when they needed about 8 or 9 runs and they got them off that over. Our home pitch is a proper pitch (still probably nowhere near as hard as pro pitch) and I'm getting sick of going to these smaller clubs and playing on their slow pudding pitches that just give weak batters that little bit more time to play.

Ahh well, that's the season finished anyway and now I can focus squarely on getting my action sorted. Next season, I won't be playing on any of these horrible pitches. I'll either play in the competitive teams or play only home games.

I remember one game in North Wales when we had the club captain and first team captain both batting for us. The pitch was terrible. Not as slow as many others, but uneven bounce and lots of turn. They both said that pitches like that almost require slogging for you to get runs. Batting properly often goes unrewarded on such poor pitches. Many club sides play on these pitches and slog because of it. It's just a different game when you play on these non-cricket wickets. Everything you've learned to do is almost thrown out of the window in favour of bowling pies and slogging!
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When they're dry though, they tend to turn okay, we've got this kind of scenario next year as we only won one game this season and we've got to drop down a league. I'm looking forward to it personally, as I reckon it'll be a wicket-fest.
 
Cleanprophet said:
All sounds very promising. That bowling in the second video is a lot better than what you were doing just last week. The energy is much better and the momentum is much more towards the target. I was going to say something about your front arm but you already got in there and said it yourself. It does tend to fold in quite quickly. I would say that you could keep it up for a bit longer than you are. Someone like Pravin Tambe would have that front arm still out at the target at the point that the bowling arm is at shoulder height (so that both arms are at shoulder height) and then as the bowling arm rises, the front arm comes down, almost like a see-saw. Most bowlers drop the front arm a little earlier than that but your arm is already tucked in before your bowling arm has got above head height. We're talking small margins here by the way. That first video (with you not releasing the ball), your front arm does come down a little later. If you look at my video, it is similar. In your second video, it comes down a bit earlier.

It might be worth trying to hold it up for a little bit longer and see how it feels. There's still some balls that are a little off target and maybe holding that front arm up a little bit longer may help with that. You certainly seem to be using that front arm much more and that is showing in more energy on the ball. But maybe delaying the use of that front arm just a little bit will help with balance and then consistency?

As a guide, I would suggest that your front arm should be tucking in just as your bowling hand is getting to its highest point. At the moment it is tucking in as your bowling had is behind you and at about head height.
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Glad you made all the points that you did and that you recognise there's been a significant improvement. I'm especially pleased about the small margins comment with regards the leading arm. I may just carry on as I am and not think about it too much and just see how it 'Beds in'. What I want to happen is that this becomes 'Grooved' as it is and that I don't have to give it any thought along with the new run-up. Once I'm kind of there I can then start to look at the next tweak, which may be the fine tuning of the arm or getting up on the toes consistently.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
When they're dry though, they tend to turn okay, we've got this kind of scenario next year as we only won one game this season and we've got to drop down a league. I'm looking forward to it personally, as I reckon it'll be a wicket-fest.
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It's the softness of the pitch that is the only issue. Any spinner should enjoy, above all else, a hard pitch that provides lots of pace/bounce. Equally, they will hate a soft pitch that offers no pace at all. A 50mph ball is almost like a 35mph-40mph ball on a pudding pitch and lesser bats have time to adjust. For a spinner, your length has to be so, so much better. In short, it gives the batter plenty of help.

That said, it helps if your captain is on the ball. In friendly games, the captain is usually half asleep. You can use your field to force the batter to play in areas he doesn't want to. On a slow pitch, pack the field square and leave it open down the ground. Make him play straight rather then get on the backfoot and slog to leg.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Glad you made all the points that you did and that you recognise there's been a significant improvement. I'm especially pleased about the small margins comment with regards the leading arm. I may just carry on as I am and not think about it too much and just see how it 'Beds in'. What I want to happen is that this becomes 'Grooved' as it is and that I don't have to give it any thought along with the new run-up. Once I'm kind of there I can then start to look at the next tweak, which may be the fine tuning of the arm or getting up on the toes consistently.
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That's fair enough. Keep on pulling hard with that front arm for a few more weeks until you do it quite naturally (although, you may always have to tell yourself to do it just before each run up - for the time being anyway, I know I do). Further down the line, you could look to push the arm straighter at the target, as you mentioned, as that should help with the arm not tucking in just a little early.

But, for sure, there is a significant difference between this bowling and bowling last week. Last week it looked quite gentle and lacking in consistency. This is far better. That ball that boogiespinner mentioned is a proper legspinner. Every batter would have to respect that. A lot would feel forced to slog against it and get into trouble. Above all else, coming down the wicket to it is fraught with difficulty.
 
Cleanprophet said:
It's the softness of the pitch that is the only issue. Any spinner should enjoy, above all else, a hard pitch that provides lots of pace/bounce. Equally, they will hate a soft pitch that offers no pace at all. A 50mph ball is almost like a 35mph-40mph ball on a pudding pitch and lesser bats have time to adjust. For a spinner, your length has to be so, so much better. In short, it gives the batter plenty of help.

That said, it helps if your captain is on the ball. In friendly games, the captain is usually half asleep. You can use your field to force the batter to play in areas he doesn't want to. On a slow pitch, pack the field square and leave it open down the ground. Make him play straight rather then get on the backfoot and slog to leg.
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Our captains good, a clever cricket player who's been doing it for years. He's in his 40's and has played since he was a kid and the added bonus is that he's a spin bowler (Finger spin), so if I'm on song I get plenty of overs. Chances are what with going down a league we may be in contention to win the league and get promoted again? We'll have to see next season.
Raining at the moment and virtually dark by 7pm so any chance of a bowl after work is quickly disappearing, so I'm going to have to do fitness work in the evenings and try and get to bowl at the weekend. There's a crew of us that might go to another clubs indoor facilities every now and then and pay for their nets over the winter. If that comes together and happens, that'll be a result.
 
Related to that front arm and the extending of it, reaching forwards, I've been looking at my front arm and those of other legspinners. My arm has always extended and reached forwards but has reached towards legside. Your arm Dave, doesn't extend at all. I don't know how that lack of extension effects the action but I would look to do it as you would imagine it helps with the whole action.

I adjusted my front arm and started pushing it towards the target (the stumps). But, watching the likes of Warne and MacGill, their arm actually pushes at a line outside offstump and pulls down on the line of the keeper. This will almost certainly help with rotating to front on. I keep finding that I sometimes don't get my hips completely fully around in time and it may well simply be that I am giving myself too much to do because I am aligned slightly out when I hit the crease. So, I'm going to work on pulling that front arm more towards a line just outside offstump and see if that helps.

I'm also still not staying as upright as I need to be. That's another thing I need to work on. That dropping left shoulder is still a problem.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Related to that front arm and the extending of it, reaching forwards, I've been looking at my front arm and those of other legspinners. My arm has always extended and reached forwards but has reached towards legside. Your arm Dave, doesn't extend at all. I don't know how that lack of extension effects the action but I would look to do it as you would imagine it helps with the whole action.

I adjusted my front arm and started pushing it towards the target (the stumps). But, watching the likes of Warne and MacGill, their arm actually pushes at a line outside offstump and pulls down on the line of the keeper. This will almost certainly help with rotating to front on. I keep finding that I sometimes don't get my hips completely fully around in time and it may well simply be that I am giving myself too much to do because I am aligned slightly out when I hit the crease. So, I'm going to work on pulling that front arm more towards a line just outside offstump and see if that helps.

I'm also still not staying as upright as I need to be. That's another thing I need to work on. That dropping left shoulder is still a problem.
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Yeah that front arm needs some work I can see that, I'll just have to see how it goes if I get a chance this coming weekend. I've had a look at the super slo mo footage of Warne that funk posted some years ago, that's a pretty good illustration of what your leading arm might do. I might also try and video my action in a similar way?
 
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Cleanprophet said:
I've watched that Wanre slo mo plenty of times myself.

I've done some work today pulling that front arm down on that line just outside offstump. Step start and then a bit of a run/jump start:



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Yeah looks good. Seeing you do the first one off of a stand start made me realise I can do that almost anytime without a ball in my hand - just getting my head around that action of bring the arm forwards. I'll start doing that now ready for any good weather at the weekend and then try and transfer it to the new bowling - cheers!
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah looks good. Seeing you do the first one off of a stand start made me realise I can do that almost anytime without a ball in my hand - just getting my head around that action of bring the arm forwards. I'll start doing that now ready for any good weather at the weekend and then try and transfer it to the new bowling - cheers!
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One of the cues that my coach gives me with the front arm is to try and place my hand on the batters head. Not literally of course but just so that I still have that strong left arm and I am reaching out with that hand. Do you guys think it is a good cue to help with getting that left arm better.
James
 
James513 said:
One of the cues that my coach gives me with the front arm is to try and place my hand on the batters head. Not literally of course but just so that I still have that strong left arm and I am reaching out with that hand. Do you guys think it is a good cue to help with getting that left arm better.
James
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Yeah, it probably is. The batter will likely be on middle or leg and his head will be outside offstump. You hear about aiming that arm at the target, but you want it just outside the line of the target because you will be bowling a line that is angled slightly in and you should get some drift - both of which will probably get you landing legside of your target. Aim outside offstump (I reckon somewhere between the keeper and 1st slip) and that should be fine.

The issue I have is that my bowling arm often falls behind me by the point that it is at shoulder height. That's happening because I am too side-on at that point. My shoulder is pointing directly behind me and so that's where my arm moves to. The front arm pulling to just outside off is all part of the rotation and it ensures that the body and bowling shoulder are rotating around and getting to that chest on position you need to be when you release the ball. My front arm always pulled to legside and so my bowling arm was not where it should have ideally been. However, I landed with my front foot on the same line as my back foot and had me less side-on from the get-go and so I was able to get to chest on. Since I started stepping that front foot across my body (as you ideally should do) I've been more side-on from the get-go and not getting to chest on with my normal action. I can go back to the old position at the crease or start using that front arm more. That's got to be the option. Not just pulling to just outside off but pulling hard.
 
James513 said:
One of the cues that my coach gives me with the front arm is to try and place my hand on the batters head. Not literally of course but just so that I still have that strong left arm and I am reaching out with that hand. Do you guys think it is a good cue to help with getting that left arm better.
James
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I'll give it a go James, I've just come in from trying to get that front arm active just now before it gets dark. I've just looked at it and there's virtually no difference from what I did on Saturday which is disappointing. Maybe if I apply your batsman's head approach they'll be an improvement. I might upload the video, but I did it so fast it was out of focus and I didn't notice. Doh!
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I'll give it a go James, I've just come in from trying to get that front arm active just now before it gets dark. I've just looked at it and there's virtually no difference from what I did on Saturday which is disappointing. Maybe if I apply your batsman's head approach they'll be an improvement. I might upload the video, but I did it so fast it was out of focus and I didn't notice. Doh!
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I've always found that changing something in your action is a frustrating experience. You think you are doing something only to watch it back and find you aren't at all. It will take you a fair bit of effort to get that front arm reaching out, but I think you will do it with a couple of weeks work. Don't expect too much too soon and you won't be disappointed too much. It's a case of doing it tiny step bt tiny step.
 
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