Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Fleetwood]

Morning all, I've been lurking & reading up on this excellent thread for a bit so thought I'd better chirp up. I'm a 40-odd left arm wristspinner in southern England who started bowling again after a 20yr gap last year. I had mixed results over last season (mostly t20 friendlies) but improved a lot towards the end, and have been down the nets bowling a fair bit since the season ended, waiting for indoor nets to start in a couple of weeks. I'm happy with how things are developing at this early stage - good revs & accuracy, have upped the pace quite a bit- but have found a wrong'un really hard to develop so far. I can deliver a fair one round arm over about 15-yards, but transitioning to overarm has been tricky - I can only produce a ridiculously loopy delivery which doesn't really turn. Wrong'un bowlers, how much different is the hand action from your legbreak - is it the same with the the wrist rolled over more, or do you flip the ball out of the back of your hand with finger action, or neither? I've got a flipper that I'm fairlu ha[ppy with and have just started to try a slider, which looks very promising indeed, but have stalled a bit trying to produce a googly.

 

[doc8176]

Morning all, I've been lurking & reading up on this excellent thread for a bit so thought I'd better chirp up. I'm a 40-odd left arm wristspinner in southern England who started bowling again after a 20yr gap last year. I had mixed results over last season (mostly t20 friendlies) but improved a lot towards the end, and have been down the nets bowling a fair bit since the season ended, waiting for indoor nets to start in a couple of weeks. I'm happy with how things are developing at this early stage - good revs & accuracy, have upped the pace quite a bit- but have found a wrong'un really hard to develop so far. I can deliver a fair one round arm over about 15-yards, but transitioning to overarm has been tricky - I can only produce a ridiculously loopy delivery which doesn't really turn. Wrong'un bowlers, how much different is the hand action from your legbreak - is it the same with the the wrist rolled over more, or do you flip the ball out of the back of your hand with finger action, or neither? I've got a flipper that I'm fairlu ha[ppy with and have just started to try a slider, which looks very promising indeed, but have stalled a bit trying to produce a googly.

I’m not sure how far back you’ve looked in here but I’ll just disclaim that I’m not a wrist spinner, I’m actually an offie but no one uses the other thread.

I can bowl leg spin with good revs somewhat accurately, along with a slider. But I’ve always struggled with the wrong’un, I think it’s because I have almost no hyperextension in my joints so it’s really hard to get my wrist around far enough.

I think in your case your age might not help (I’m only 19) with the wrist mobility for it. Would recommend some mobility exercises.

I can’t give you much as far as technical for it though, considering I can’t bowl it myself haha.

 

[Leggy88]

Morning all, I've been lurking & reading up on this excellent thread for a bit so thought I'd better chirp up. I'm a 40-odd left arm wristspinner in southern England who started bowling again after a 20yr gap last year. I had mixed results over last season (mostly t20 friendlies) but improved a lot towards the end, and have been down the nets bowling a fair bit since the season ended, waiting for indoor nets to start in a couple of weeks. I'm happy with how things are developing at this early stage - good revs & accuracy, have upped the pace quite a bit- but have found a wrong'un really hard to develop so far. I can deliver a fair one round arm over about 15-yards, but transitioning to overarm has been tricky - I can only produce a ridiculously loopy delivery which doesn't really turn. Wrong'un bowlers, how much different is the hand action from your legbreak - is it the same with the the wrist rolled over more, or do you flip the ball out of the back of your hand with finger action, or neither? I've got a flipper that I'm fairlu ha[ppy with and have just started to try a slider, which looks very promising indeed, but have stalled a bit trying to produce a googly.

I have a big turning wrong un (when I get it right) and a small turning, high bouncing wrongun when I get it wrong, and this is what I think is happening to you right now, because when I get it wrong like that it is loopy as anything like yours. However this is a decent change up that i sometimes use because of the extreme bounce to batsmen trying to whack me.

You need good shoulder mobility for the wrong un, maybe check that with some drills online. In terms of technicality i visualise my thumb pointing whichever way I want the ball to spin. For the googly this means your thumb pointing the same way as the crease, to the right.If you actually did this it would be 100% offspin/googlyspin, no topspin, but in reality this overcompensation in the mental cue should get you bowling a nice turning wrongun still retaining some topspin.
To he,p get your arm in this twisted position at release, drop your front arm. Hope this helps.

 

[Fleetwood]

Thanks for the advice lads, very helpful . I hadn't really considered the flexibility aspect enough, I used to do a bit of work on shoulder flexibility, but that sort of tailed off - I'll have to revisit it.

You need good shoulder mobility for the wrong un, maybe check that with some drills online. In terms of technicality i visualise my thumb pointing whichever way I want the ball to spin. For the googly this means your thumb pointing the same way as the crease, to the right.If you actually did this it would be 100% offspin/googlyspin, no topspin, but in reality this overcompensation in the mental cue should get you bowling a nice turning wrongun still retaining some topspin.
To he,p get your arm in this twisted position at release, drop your front arm. Hope this helps.

Do you have the thumb on the ball, or completely off it?

 

[Leggy88]

Thanks for the advice lads, very helpful . I hadn't really considered the flexibility aspect enough, I used to do a bit of work on shoulder flexibility, but that sort of tailed off - I'll have to revisit it.


Do you have the thumb on the ball, or completely off it?

On the ball mate. Even with my normal leggies.if the thumb is off the ball in the wrongun I feel the ball slips out loopy, is this what you have been doing?

 

[doc8176]

Just took 3-22(9) on syntho. First wicket bowl, next bloke I got first ball caught at short leg, last wicket was chopped on trying to cut one that turned in.

First 3 batsman too.

I then made 21*(105) opening the batting to guide us to the win.

It was 37C too, I was close to throwing up from dehydration. I’ve had like 6 hydralytes now though and I’m all good .

 

[Leggy88]

Just took 3-22(9) on syntho. First wicket bowl, next bloke I got first ball caught at short leg, last wicket was chopped on trying to cut one that turned in.

First 3 batsman too.

I then made 21*(105) opening the batting to guide us to the win.

It was 37C too, I was close to throwing up from dehydration. I’ve had like 6 hydralytes now though and I’m all good .

Nice mate good work. I bet that short leg wicket felt good.

 

[doc8176]

Nice mate good work. I bet that short leg wicket felt good.

Yeah honestly though it was a screamer of a catch.

The bowled felt way better because it was through the gate and I somehow hit the stumps despite it being on synthetic.

 

[Chinaman34]

Would you be keen for a net sometimes this weekend?

Sunday maybe.

Sorry for the late reply.
Had work over that weekend and have work this weekend. Im off til friday tho, dont have work next weekend. Lets train soon, also I just registered my sunday t20 team for the meulemens cup, if youre interested let me know.

 

[doc8176]

Sorry for the late reply.
Had work over that weekend and have work this weekend. Im off til friday tho, dont have work next weekend. Lets train soon, also I just registered my sunday t20 team for the meulemens cup, if youre interested let me know.

No worries, next weekend works for me, I get home at 5pm every weekday so that wouldn’t really work

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Morning all, I've been lurking & reading up on this excellent thread for a bit so thought I'd better chirp up. I'm a 40-odd left arm wristspinner in southern England who started bowling again after a 20yr gap last year. I had mixed results over last season (mostly t20 friendlies) but improved a lot towards the end, and have been down the nets bowling a fair bit since the season ended, waiting for indoor nets to start in a couple of weeks. I'm happy with how things are developing at this early stage - good revs & accuracy, have upped the pace quite a bit- but have found a wrong'un really hard to develop so far. I can deliver a fair one round arm over about 15-yards, but transitioning to overarm has been tricky - I can only produce a ridiculously loopy delivery which doesn't really turn. Wrong'un bowlers, how much different is the hand action from your legbreak - is it the same with the the wrist rolled over more, or do you flip the ball out of the back of your hand with finger action, or neither? I've got a flipper that I'm fairlu ha[ppy with and have just started to try a slider, which looks very promising indeed, but have stalled a bit trying to produce a googly.

Fleetwood, I'm interested in this Slider you're working with. Can you elaborate? Do you have Top-Spinner? Did you have this many variations 20 years ago? Good to hear you're getting back into it, you're not in my County by any chance - Essex?

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Have a look at this 1 minute 50 seconds in. Listen to what Healey says about Warne's deliveries. Have a count up and then make a note of the one that's missing, then listen to the bit where they then laugh about the BS deliveries. What's you're analysis of the BS deliveries - the ones he never bowled? Why didn't he bowl them I wonder?

 

[Leggy88]

Have a look at this 1 minute 50 seconds in. Listen to what Healey says about Warne's deliveries. Have a count up and then make a note of the one that's missing, then listen to the bit where they then laugh about the BS deliveries. What's you're analysis of the BS deliveries - the ones he never bowled? Why didn't he bowl them I wonder?

He didn’t bowl them because they weren’t real lol.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

He didn’t bowl them because they weren’t real lol.

There used to be a few videos that were post Warne era were he spoke about and explained "Sliders". All Leg-Breaks that he got wrong - cold hands, too loose/too tight. Every time, the commentators would say 'Oh yes he's got him with the slider' and Warne's commentating over the top explaining, yeah it was cold that day... tried the big leg-break and it just didn't come out right. As far as I'm aware and confirmed in this video he didn't even bowl the Orthodox back-spinner. Slider = utter B****ks. As I always say - point me to a book about Wrist Spin bowling, written by a respected practitioner with an written explanation of a slider and I might be tempted to change my mind.

 

[Leggy88]

There used to be a few videos that were post Warne era were he spoke about and explained "Sliders". All Leg-Breaks that he got wrong - cold hands, too loose/too tight. Every time, the commentators would say 'Oh yes he's got him with the slider' and Warne's commentating over the top explaining, yeah it was cold that day... tried the big leg-break and it just didn't come out right. As far as I'm aware and confirmed in this video he didn't even bowl the Orthodox back-spinner. Slider = utter B****ks. As I always say - point me to a book about Wrist Spin bowling, written by a respected practitioner with an written explanation of a slider and I might be tempted to change my mind.

Do you bowl a ball that often goes straight on, like a full sidespinner? That’s my personal definition of it. This type of delivery is also what often comes out when the hands are cold or wet, the ball slides out with sidespin a bit quicker. It is impossible for the ball to slip out with mostly topspin imo.

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Do you bowl a ball that often goes straight on, like a full sidespinner? That’s my personal definition of it. This type of delivery is also what often comes out when the hands are cold or wet, the ball slides out with sidespin a bit quicker. It is impossible for the ball to slip out with mostly topspin imo.

Yeah, so that's a Big-Leg Break gone wrong, sometimes they'll turn other times they skid on - which is what Warne says, I've never heard him say or allude to the fact that he has any control over it, but he knows that the batsman is seeing the side-spin and is expecting it to turn and then it doesn't. Anyone that bowls a big Leg-break with near enough 90 degree seam presentation knows that this is an aspect of this type of delivery. What Warne did that was clever, which is what they talk about in the video above as I recall. Is that, he pretended it was an intended delivery... a variation and I think he kind of orchestrated it by saying "It's the one that skids on... a kind of a "Slider"" and they jumped on the slider reference and any ball that came out wrong was labelled as a slider. I'm not 100%, but I don't think there's any video tutorials where he demonstrates a slider and neither does Terry Jenner. I'm going to have a look.... Here... But it's the Orthodox back-spinner, it's not an additional delivery, that's my point. Maybe I'm being too pedantic with regards the name of the delivery? As I say in the comments with the video... "Just call it what it is". Don't dress it up as a new delivery, which I always felt was Warne's objective in these video's trying to give the impression he had about 7 deliveries instead of the basic 5. (1). Top-spinner, (2). Leg-Break (3) Wrong-un (4). Orthodox back-spinner and (5), Flipper.

 

[Leggy88]

Yeah, so that's a Big-Leg Break gone wrong, sometimes they'll turn other times they skid on - which is what Warne says, I've never heard him say or allude to the fact that he has any control over it, but he knows that the batsman is seeing the side-spin and is expecting it to turn and then it doesn't. Anyone that bowls a big Leg-break with near enough 90 degree seam presentation knows that this is an aspect of this type of delivery. What Warne did that was clever, which is what they talk about in the video above as I recall. Is that, he pretended it was an intended delivery... a variation and I think he kind of orchestrated it by saying "It's the one that skids on... a kind of a "Slider"" and they jumped on the slider reference and any ball that came out wrong was labelled as a slider. I'm not 100%, but I don't think there's any video tutorials where he demonstrates a slider and neither does Terry Jenner. I'm going to have a look.... Here... But it's the Orthodox back-spinner, it's not an additional delivery, that's my point. Maybe I'm being too pedantic with regards the name of the delivery? As I say in the comments with the video... "Just call it what it is". Don't dress it up as a new delivery, which I always felt was Warne's objective in these video's trying to give the impression he had about 7 deliveries instead of the basic 5. (1). Top-spinner, (2). Leg-Break (3) Wrong-un (4). Orthodox back-spinner and (5), Flipper.

Yeah I believe the slider is impossible to bowl intentionally with the certainty it will do what you want.

 

[Fleetwood]

Fleetwood, I'm interested in this Slider you're working with. Can you elaborate? Do you have Top-Spinner? Did you have this many variations 20 years ago? Good to hear you're getting back into it, you're not in my County by any chance - Essex?

Hi Dave - enjoyed your various blogs and videos over the years, great stuff for any legspin aficionado! I didn't want to give the impression that I'm breaking exciting new ground in wristspin, so possibly slider wasn't the right term to use - I share the irritation at the vagueness of some terms, slider being possibly the worst, used for everything that goes straight on. All I've been doing is using an orthodox 2-up 2-down grip , and at delivery pulling the two "up " fingers straight down the back of the ball, like a seamer would, except with the arm whipping across the body to leg, this generally seems to produce what is basically a leg-cutter to a r/h batsman. It's not the most subtle deception in the world, but at the level that I play at (mid-week T20) , even the better batsmen are more interested in trying to dump me into the next field than they are in attempting to actually read any deliveries. It's early days, but I appear to be able to land it pretty accurately, and with the angle of a leftarmer bowling over the wicket, even a straight ball seems to be going away from the R/H batter, especially if my stock ball is turning.

Re - topspinner - I do try, and can bowl a ball with a bit more topspin on it, but there always seems to be a bit of sidespin there, I don't have the fine control over the angle of spin that I would want. I did used to be able bowl a very slow loopy wrong'un back in the day, but never really had full control of it - in any event, I'm a bit quicker all round now, so the much-slower googly really stands out. I'm going to really work on the shoulder flexibility, as I've probably not worked hard enough at that. I was down the nets the other day and it was coming out OK roundarm from about 15 yards, so maybe I just need to work a bit more on it.

I'm down south, but Hampshire down on the south coast - normally quite dry over the summer but really windy this time of year....

 

[SomeblokecalledDave.]

Hello Fleetwood. You've said - " All I've been doing is using an orthodox 2-up 2-down grip , and at delivery pulling the two "up " fingers straight down the back of the ball, like a seamer would, except with the arm whipping across the body to leg, this generally seems to produce what is basically a leg-cutter to a r/h batsman".

I went through periods when I tried that delivery, it seems like an obvious development as a wrist-spinner, but I've never heard anyone of any consequence use it and it just seems to be a variation of a medium pacers delivery? I have to concede, that as I've got older (My two lads have pointed this out) I'm probably a bit obsessive about details relating to this type of thing and maybe I should chill a bit! Perhaps, if I was as obsessed with seam up bowling, I'd be able to credit that delivery to a particular bowler and that would make me feel somewhat happier about it - it might even be a standard variation for medium pace bowler? I think it's definitely got a place in your armoury if you can deliver it well and yeah I'm sure the uninitiated batter facing it would walk down to his mate at the other end and say. "Watch out this blokes got a slider".

With your point about the top-spinner, I think you just have to work with it a lot and work out a way of bowling it. My Leg-Break sits quite deep in my hands, with a loose grip. If I work with my wrist and try and get the presentation so that I feels like it should produce more over-spin, I end up producing a variation of my usual leg-break - which often turns more. I have no idea how or why, but as far as my brain and body are concerned I've released the ball to execute a Leg-Break! I have to change the grip completely to produce a top-spinner, far higher in the hand, almost finger tips with a firmer grip.

Can you vary your arm angle and still execute your variations? I used to have a very good Googly with a high arm - scrapped bowling Googlies though because of Googly syndrome. I can bowl my leg-breaks with a lower arm and it's the only time I ever notice my balls drifting and dipping at the same time, but it's not something I do frequently enough to bring to the game on a consistent basis. I might try one or two if I'm bowling well, but it's 50/50 if I'm going to get it right, so I only do it if I'm bowling really well and have a low economy and can afford to be hit for a 4. The low arm delivery also turns well off the wicket. It kind begs the question why don't I work on it more? I'm pretty certain I can't execute the flipper well enough with the lower arm and the flipper would then stand out a mile if I bowled it normally with a high arm in isolation.

South coast/Hampshire - very nice part of the country. What's your club ground like?

 

[Leggy88]

Hello Fleetwood. You've said - " All I've been doing is using an orthodox 2-up 2-down grip , and at delivery pulling the two "up " fingers straight down the back of the ball, like a seamer would, except with the arm whipping across the body to leg, this generally seems to produce what is basically a leg-cutter to a r/h batsman".

I went through periods when I tried that delivery, it seems like an obvious development as a wrist-spinner, but I've never heard anyone of any consequence use it and it just seems to be a variation of a medium pacers delivery? I have to concede, that as I've got older (My two lads have pointed this out) I'm probably a bit obsessive about details relating to this type of thing and maybe I should chill a bit! Perhaps, if I was as obsessed with seam up bowling, I'd be able to credit that delivery to a particular bowler and that would make me feel somewhat happier about it - it might even be a standard variation for medium pace bowler? I think it's definitely got a place in your armoury if you can deliver it well and yeah I'm sure the uninitiated batter facing it would walk down to his mate at the other end and say. "Watch out this blokes got a slider".

With your point about the top-spinner, I think you just have to work with it a lot and work out a way of bowling it. My Leg-Break sits quite deep in my hands, with a loose grip. If I work with my wrist and try and get the presentation so that I feels like it should produce more over-spin, I end up producing a variation of my usual leg-break - which often turns more. I have no idea how or why, but as far as my brain and body are concerned I've released the ball to execute a Leg-Break! I have to change the grip completely to produce a top-spinner, far higher in the hand, almost finger tips with a firmer grip.

Can you vary your arm angle and still execute your variations? I used to have a very good Googly with a high arm - scrapped bowling Googlies though because of Googly syndrome. I can bowl my leg-breaks with a lower arm and it's the only time I ever notice my balls drifting and dipping at the same time, but it's not something I do frequently enough to bring to the game on a consistent basis. I might try one or two if I'm bowling well, but it's 50/50 if I'm going to get it right, so I only do it if I'm bowling really well and have a low economy and can afford to be hit for a 4. The low arm delivery also turns well off the wicket. It kind begs the question why don't I work on it more? I'm pretty certain I can't execute the flipper well enough with the lower arm and the flipper would then stand out a mile if I bowled it normally with a high arm in isolation.

South coast/Hampshire - very nice part of the country. What's your club ground like?

Right now I'm experimenting with having my slider really loose in my fingers and bowling it quite round arm, trying to get a touch of backspin. Certainly think this could come out faster than just a leg cutter, and with more drift and revs? I feel with the loose grip it almost slips out, coming out quicker than normal. However I find this harder to control, but certainly nice when I get it right.