Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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If you know of an example of the two fingers down the back type delivery in an older book that's credited to a slow bowler as one of his variations, I'm interested in that, but in essence that is simply a seamers delivery bowled by a spin bowler, but it'd be interesting to see it described in that context? But, I don't think any spin bowler would ever have claimed to have 'Invented it'? In a way it just seems like an obvious thing to do as a slow bowler, but just to satisfy my OCD on this subject I need to see a description written by someone of repute, just so as to authenticate it.

As an analogy - the layman would dismiss Tracy Emin's 'Unmade bed' as a load of crap as too, Andrea Gursky's Rhein II, but, both are works of genius with a massive pedigree and made by people that are the best in their field. The real deliveries, the ones that have been described and authenticated, written about by experts and then not ridiculed by their peers are the real works of art. The 'Sliders and Zooters' are like images you see on Google +, they've got something about them - obviously, but they're not in the same league as the Orthodox back-spinner and the Leg Break. They just seem to lack the pedigree through lack of clarity assigned to them by being described in books that are noted as being seminal works in the field. I've just looked in Woolmers book and the term slider isn't in there, Grimmett, who you are now claiming to be a joke is in there though as is Philpott.
 
macca said:
Dave, Atherton is right, the Doug Ring ball is not the flipper. Doolan taught Benaud the flipper. Doug Ring was the first bloke to bowl what Philpott confusingly called the "backspinning topspinner". Grimmett didn't bowl one.

Benaud was calling that ball his "slider" back in the 50's. You call it an orthodox backspinner, which throws some people thinking you're talking fingerspin.

Philpott played with Benaud many times for NSW. I will dig out Philpottds description from his 1977 book about how often Benaud would bowl the backspinner off the wrist spinners clock opposite the wristspinners topspinner. Philpott writes how this "backspinning topspinner" was far more effective for Benaud than the flipper.

It is like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time, or whatever that thing is you are not supposed to be able to do, at first when you try it but it will help your big legbreak learning it.

Then you have "a" slider which is what most people mean by slider in cricket these days. That is the oldest variation, using a few different ways to roll the fingers like a seamer and get a backspinner. I notice these days TV commentators use the term to descibe any ball from a slow bowler that they say "slides" past the batsman and doesn't spin.

Like I said there is "the" slider and a "slider".
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Macca, I knew you'd be able to put me right on that if I was wrong, I've just been looking for that story and haven't been able to find it!

It does get confusing... so your use of the term "The Slider" is in fact what Philpott calls the Orthodox Back-spinner? With regards Grimmett then, he at least describes it though in 'Getting Wickets' doesn't he? But you're saying he never bowled it ever or competitively?

Yeah with Benaud, I noted that Philpott says that he bowled a very good OBS and it was his stock ball, but Benuad referred to it as a slider then? So it's Benaud's fault then for all this confusion, why couldn't he just call it what it is - An Orthodox back-spinner???

Ha ha!
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Macca, I knew you'd be able to put me right on that if I was wrong, I've just been looking for that story and haven't been able to find it!

It does get confusing... so your use of the term "The Slider" is in fact what Philpott calls the Orthodox Back-spinner? With regards Grimmett then, he at least describes it though in 'Getting Wickets' doesn't he? But you're saying he never bowled it ever or competitively?

Yeah with Benaud, I noted that Philpott says that he bowled a very good OBS and it was his stock ball, but Benuad referred to it as a slider then? So it's Benaud's fault then for all this confusion, why couldn't he just call it what it is - An Orthodox back-spinner???

Ha ha!
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Benaud had a few names for it and they all have something to do with slippery dip or slide.

Grimmett does not mention it once. Philpott calls it "backspinning topspinner".

Here is an article where Bob Simpson calls it Philpotts "backspinning toppie" and how he taught Warne how to bowl it http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20070106000201700.htm&date=tss3001/&prd=tss&
 
Okay, so having had a quick look through 'Getting wickets' (Grimmett 1930) it appears my memory is failing me and Grimmett only goes round the loop as far as the Googly and he doesn't go on to the OBS. Macca in this case you might have the answer to this - who then bowled the OBS or the back-spinning toppie before Philpott or Bob Simpson?

Again there's the confusion - Warne bowling the OBS and re-branding it and re-naming it the Zooter and the Slider etc. (As per your article).
 
Who inveted the leg break? No idea. Does that mean it doesnt exist?
Ive seen the jenner clip, he bowls a slider but describes it incorrectly.

Im not saying anyone is a liar, im saying that in the days before slo motion hi def replay people were often confused as to what was actually going on. Take anything you read in a manual with a pinch of salt. They all contradict each other anyway.
If you csn show me a clear clip of an obs I will happily examine it.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Okay, so having had a quick look through 'Getting wickets' (Grimmett 1930) it appears my memory is failing me and Grimmett only goes round the loop as far as the Googly and he doesn't go on to the OBS. Macca in this case you might have the answer to this - who then bowled the OBS or the back-spinning toppie before Philpott or Bob Simpson?

Again there's the confusion - Warne bowling the OBS and re-branding it and re-naming it the Zooter and the Slider etc. (As per your article).
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Doug Ring bowled it and showed Benaud. Ring may have been shown by Fleetwood Smith. Fleetwood Smith probably found it by going for the biggest possible legbreak, which he was famous for.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Okay, so having had a quick look through 'Getting wickets' (Grimmett 1930) it appears my memory is failing me and Grimmett only goes round the loop as far as the Googly and he doesn't go on to the OBS. Macca in this case you might have the answer to this - who then bowled the OBS or the back-spinning toppie before Philpott or Bob Simpson?

Again there's the confusion - Warne bowling the OBS and re-branding it and re-naming it the Zooter and the Slider etc. (As per your article).
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Looking at my blog, I had the link in there already http://legspinbowling.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/orthodox-back-spinner-slider-zooter.html
 
SLA said:
Who inveted the leg break? No idea. Does that mean it doesnt exist?
Ive seen the jenner clip, he bowls a slider but describes it incorrectly.

Im not saying anyone is a liar, im saying that in the days before slo motion hi def replay people were often confused as to what was actually going on. Take anything you read in a manual with a pinch of salt. They all contradict each other anyway.
If you csn show me a clear clip of an obs I will happily examine it.
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So, without me looking at the clip from 'Wings to fly' your saying Jenner, despite the scrutiny of the ECB and the fact that they're putting this video out there as a training aid, says that he's now going to demonstrate an Orthodox back-spinner and then he runs his fingers down the back of the ball and bowls a slow seam ball?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
So, without me looking at the clip from 'Wings to fly' your saying Jenner, despite the scrutiny of the ECB and the fact that they're putting this video out there as a training aid, says that he's now going to demonstrate an Orthodox back-spinner and then he runs his fingers down the back of the ball and bowls a slow seam ball?
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Yes. They wouldn't know any better. Most spin advice on the internet is complete nonsense sadly.
You cant bowl an obs. It is biomechanically impossible. Most probably people boel a slider by accident.
 
I've just looked again at the Wings to Fly vid and Jenner goes round the loop and demo's the OBS at the end of stand and talk it through type demo, he mentions that people refer to it as the slider, back-spinner and the zooter and then at the end of the whole clip he bowls it, calling it a slider, but... You're right in that it's not definitive with regards to what he does, because it's not shot in high-speed. So the jury is out on the fact that there is very little evidence that anyone can bowl the Orthodox back-spinner or the back-spinning toppie. I'd love to be able to record my mate actually doing it, but I haven't got access to a camera that will slow the whole thing down enough to show it and maybe you're right, it might be possible in theory, but in practice where is the evidence?
 
O.K, our cover is blown. The backspinner is just an elaborate NSW hoax. Philpott was the perfect person to front the scheme. A respected scholar and headmaster know one would doubt him they thought as they hatched their diabolical deception on the whole cricketing world.

Benaud was in it up to his neck making the preposterous claim that Ring showed him the skidder or slider by demonstrating it with a green apple on a train in England? They must have thought people would think that sounds so strange it must be true.
 
With some of the comments above in mind I've just contacted the "Slow Mo guys" https://www.youtube.com/user/theslowmoguys/about on youtube and emailed them with this proposal...

Hello,
You must get loads of these requests, but if I don't ask, it'll never happen...
You're in the UK it seems and your accents don't sound as though you're a million miles from me here in Essex?
Right - the proposal...
I play cricket and do this thing called wrist spin bowling or leg spinning. If you search it, you'll find me in one of my guises on the first page in a Google search because of my obsession with the subject.
Basically, I along with other people spin the ball in a peculiar way that is virtually un-recorded. There is almost no high speed footage of anyone bowling where the mechanics of the release have been filmed except for this single example here at 2.10 seconds in (The blonde bloke - Shane Warne).
It would be a massive asset to wrist spinners all around the world if such video existed and it would solve a few discussions about what is and isn't possible.
Is there any chance you'd be interested in filming this stuff and having it on your youtube pages? It would generate new traffic, I'd promote it to hell and direct traffic your way including one the worlds best wrist spinners - Stuart Macgill, he'd probably promote it too and it might lead to other things?
To be honest I'm amazed this isn't already out there!
If you are interested I'd work to get a bunch of good bowlers to a venue and get it together to be filmed. I may be able to organise a daylight venue indoors.
Dave Thompson
 
macca said:
O.K, our cover is blown. The backspinner is just an elaborate NSW hoax. Philpott was the perfect person to front the scheme. A respected scholar and headmaster know one would doubt him they thought as they hatched their diabolical deception on the whole cricketing world.

Benaud was in it up to his neck making the preposterous claim that Ring showed him the skidder or slider by demonstrating it with a green apple on a train in England? They must have thought people would think that sounds so strange it must be true.
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Brilliant Macca! Despite SLA's cynicism - I'm holding out hope!!!:)
 
All those bowlers bowled sliders. Plenty of footage of that delivery online. Existence of slider is not in dispute.

Problem isthat philpott s ruminations on theoretical flights of fantasy have been mistaken for a description of a real delivery!
 
All those bowlers bowled sliders. Plenty of footage of that delivery online. Existence of slider is not in dispute.

Problem isthat philpott s ruminations on theoretical flights of fantasy have been mistaken for a description of a real delivery!
 
OK, so far the great legspinners backbreak (non-flipper) conspiracy started with Benaud who claims it was shown to him by Doug Ring. He got Philpott and Simpson to help spread the lie. Bob Holland and Stuart MacGill were admitted to the cabal early in their careers. Terry Jenner claims on page 256 of "The Twirleymen" that Benaud showed him this delivery. It seems Benauds goal was to involve every legspinner in his outrageous charade.

If anyone is unsure of what delivery we are discussing here is the late great Terry Jenner trying to fool us all that such a ball exists. He calls it 'the' slider (not to be confused with "a" slider). You must admit he puts in a convincing performance pretending that "the" slider is possible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/skills/7362779.stm
 
My son had a good club game yesterday. Perfect conditions to bowl, not too hot and a good breeze to help drift. Hard grassy wicket, good bounce and spin. Broke the opening partnership by getting a lefthander stumped with his third ball. Snappy wicketkeeping like you wouldn't believe.

He hasn't had much to do this season because the pace attack is so good. They were hooping and seaming it all over the place yesterday and I expected them to bowl all match but I reckon the success of legspin in the bigbash partly led to him getting a twirl. Plus the fact that the captain/wicketkeeper probably liked the idea of having a spinner on so he could get a little more involved and get a possible stumping as well.
 
Spin Lizard said:
What is 'orthodox' about this so-called orthodox backspinner?
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Nothing really. It is off the wrist spinners clock , opposite the topspinner so stictly speaking is an unorthodox delivery. The reason some legspinners call it "orthodox" is to distinguish it from the flipper.

But when most people hear "orthodox" in spin talk they think fingerspin.

Confused? If you are English or in anyway non-Australian I f*****g hope so.
 
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