Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[macca]

Tends to be the case, moving from Christchurch to Wellington I went down a grade as no one knew me while a guy I used to play against who was one step from FC moved from a country area to Wellington and was asked to play for the 4ths!

The same thing happened to Grimmett when he moved from NZ to Sydney. He didn't tell them he had played first grade and even first class cricket in New Zealand so he got picked for 4ths for his first game. He was more interested in getting his signwriting business started up than cricket at that stage.

 

[copthat1]

Any of you guys got solutions for the big toe smashing up against the shoe during your delivery? I'm currently having some real grief with it. I've tried intense strapping, two pairs of socks, thin pairs of socks, lots of cotton balls around my toe - all to no avail, the pain is quite bad. Trying to avoid cutting a hole in my shoe, wondering if you have any solutions?

 

[Darth Spin]

Maybe it's a bad nail?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

This is why I vowed never to play for a club with more than 1 saturday team.

Simple progression through our club. U12s -> friendly games -> make the saturday team at ~16 -> retire to play friendly games at ~55

Everyone knows exactly where they are, no need for any politics.

SLA how's that work out if you've got more than about 15 blokes eligible and wanting to play on Saturdays?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Some of the things that go on at club level are amazing. I'll see players come in and play for the 1st team on the basis of what they did several seasons ago or on the basis of the fact that they've played at a decent standard in the sub-continent. All the while I'm thinking "why don't you just have a look at him in the nets and see how he's looking". The older player returning is the one that really frustrates and that's the cliquey side of things. A player who hasn't played any cricket for a couple of years will be given a game in the 1st team. I saw that happen last season and the player was absolutely woeful.

Interestingly, we had a few issues at our club last season with selection. One player just didn't want to play for the 1st team because he didn't enjoy it. He wanted to play for the 2nd XI with his mates and the club felt he should play where he's needed. How can you enforce that? You can't. The player isn't getting paid and if he's not enjoying it, he'll move clubs (which is, in fact, what he ended up doing). There was also the issue of some players getting picked and being given sod all to do in a game. There's a useful young seamer who was getting picked in the 3rd team and in some games wasn't even getting a bowl. The captain's opinion was that he wants to win the game first and foremost. I can understand that. The problem is, if you don't give the lad a bowl then you don't know what you've got. By the end of the season, this young lad was returning figures of 5 wickets for 10 runs for the 3rd team. He ended up getting into the 2nd team and picked up 5 for 20, winning the game in the process. Small minded politics is part and parcel of club cricket.

We've got stuff like this going on, U15's and U16's kids getting their arms twisted right up their backs to play in the 1st and 2nd XI's, when they're not ready and openly say that they'd rather not. They do well in the 4ths and 3rds and this grows their confidence as far as I can make out and maybe as they reach 17 and 18, they'd want to play in the 1st and 2nds? Being forced up to that level as far as I can make out threatens to under-mine their confidence, they go from games where they do well and make major contributions, to games where they're peripheral players, get smacked all round the park or go for ducks! It totally demoralises them at a stage in their lives where they've got all sorts of crap going on in their lives that has them thinking already "how much can I commit to cricket"? A few 1st and 2nd teams that go badly and then be told you're needed for the next few weeks for more of the same - and these kids are looking at cricket in a whole different way - and it's not a good way.

 

[SLA]

SLA how's that work out if you've got more than about 15 blokes eligible and wanting to play on Saturdays?

We wish!

Or if we did, we would just make sure those as didn't get picked on saturday got the lion's share of cricket in friendly games.

 

[shahidpak]

We've got stuff like this going on, U15's and U16's kids getting their arms twisted right up their backs to play in the 1st and 2nd XI's, when they're not ready and openly say that they'd rather not. They do well in the 4ths and 3rds and this grows their confidence as far as I can make out and maybe as they reach 17 and 18, they'd want to play in the 1st and 2nds? Being forced up to that level as far as I can make out threatens to under-mine their confidence, they go from games where they do well and make major contributions, to games where they're peripheral players, get smacked all round the park or go for ducks! It totally demoralises them at a stage in their lives where they've got all sorts of crap going on in their lives that has them thinking already "how much can I commit to cricket"? A few 1st and 2nd teams that go badly and then be told you're needed for the next few weeks for more of the same - and these kids are looking at cricket in a whole different way - and it's not a good way.

Now that you say this.... it's actually true

 

[macca]

Any of you guys got solutions for the big toe smashing up against the shoe during your delivery? I'm currently having some real grief with it. I've tried intense strapping, two pairs of socks, thin pairs of socks, lots of cotton balls around my toe - all to no avail, the pain is quite bad. Trying to avoid cutting a hole in my shoe, wondering if you have any solutions?

You might have to rest that for a while. I bet one of those old style bootmakers might know what to do.

 

[Cleanprophet]

We've got stuff like this going on, U15's and U16's kids getting their arms twisted right up their backs to play in the 1st and 2nd XI's, when they're not ready and openly say that they'd rather not. They do well in the 4ths and 3rds and this grows their confidence as far as I can make out and maybe as they reach 17 and 18, they'd want to play in the 1st and 2nds? Being forced up to that level as far as I can make out threatens to under-mine their confidence, they go from games where they do well and make major contributions, to games where they're peripheral players, get smacked all round the park or go for ducks! It totally demoralises them at a stage in their lives where they've got all sorts of crap going on in their lives that has them thinking already "how much can I commit to cricket"? A few 1st and 2nd teams that go badly and then be told you're needed for the next few weeks for more of the same - and these kids are looking at cricket in a whole different way - and it's not a good way.

Getting the balance right is tricky. All these clubs have their committee's and they are almost always a pain in the arse. They seem to think they are on the board of a professional set-up and don't realise that they can't force people to play for the teams they want them to.

The younger players issue is the major one. It's been a while since I was a young kid and I forget sometimes how easily they become disillusioned. It's why so few young kids go on to become wrist spinners because wrist spin will get you disillusioned pretty quickly. Young kids beat themselves up so easily. I'll bowl a ball to a young lad and if he doesn't play a very good shot, you see the his head drop and he starts to berate himself. As we all know, that will only make it more likely that he struggles even more. Once you start putting these youngsters into competitive games, that confidence gets tested a lot. I've seen 14yo-16yo players struggle badly in friendly Sunday games, nevermind competitive games.

A lot is done on technique for young players. I wonder how often young players have someone sit down with them and help them with the psychology. There's a batter in our first team (I think he's 21yo now) and he really is a talented batter. Probably the best technical batter at the club and a useful seamer too. Last season he averaged just 9 with the bat. At times he was opening the batting and I was scratching my head and wondering how on earth they can send this lad in to open when he is clearly struggling with the psychology of batting. I told him he should go and have a game with the Sunday team and just spend some time out in the middle, but he wasn't interested. Problem for him is the 1st team are in the Premier division now so he will be coming up against some very good teams next season and facing professionals that play international cricket (the likes of Simon Kerrigan). How's he going to do in those games I wonder?

 

[SLA]

A lot is done on technique for young players. I wonder how often young players have someone sit down with them and help them with the psychology. There's a batter in our first team (I think he's 21yo now) and he really is a talented batter. Probably the best technical batter at the club and a useful seamer too. Last season he averaged just 9 with the bat. At times he was opening the batting and I was scratching my head and wondering how on earth they can send this lad in to open when he is clearly struggling with the psychology of batting. I told him he should go and have a game with the Sunday team and just spend some time out in the middle, but he wasn't interested. Problem for him is the 1st team are in the Premier division now so he will be coming up against some very good teams next season and facing professionals that play international cricket (the likes of Simon Kerrigan). How's he going to do in those games I wonder?

This is a great question. I coach a team of U12s, and I'm wondering at what point I need to talk about what a ************ cricket is - particularly for batsmen - if you don't go into it with the right relaxed attitude, and how to deal with it. I hope that if you can bring young cricketers up with the right mindset, then they should find it easier, less stressful and more enjoyable as they get older.

 

[Cleanprophet]

This is a great question. I coach a team of U12s, and I'm wondering at what point I need to talk about what a ************ cricket is - particularly for batsmen - if you don't go into it with the right relaxed attitude, and how to deal with it. I hope that if you can bring young cricketers up with the right mindset, then they should find it easier, less stressful and more enjoyable as they get older.

You will know more than me with you being a coach of U12s, but in my experience it is tough giving advice to young cricketers and even more so with psychological advice. They just want to bat and/or bowl. They don't want to listen to this boring bloke droning on about mindset etc. There's one young lad who does listen and actually comes and asks my advice. That's quite rare amongst young lads. I don't envy you and anyone else trying to coach young players.

Unrelated to that topic, I wanted to get some more advice from people about the googly. I'm still having a nightmare trying to bowl the bloody thing. I've never really been able to bowl it, but I'm making a real concerted effort to nail it down once and for all. It's driving me around the bend. It's like being addicted to a puzzle that you simply cannot solve. Ultimately, I just don't get my wrist in the correct position. I can produce the action when I do it very slowly, with the back of the hand facing the batter and the palm facing skywards. Yet, when I try to bowl at full speed (or even at half speed) the back of the hand just does not rotate around as it should.

I'm sure I know what the problem is. In the normal leg spinning delivery, when my arm is behind me and moving into delivery position, instead of my fingers pointed downwards, they tend to point slightly away from me (towards the leg side). That's not a problem for flicking the wrist into a leg spinning position. In fact, I think it helps the leg spinner. The problem is, for the googly you need those fingers pointing down (I think) so that the flick of the wrist is from fingers pointing down to fingers pointing up - if that all makes sense?

Try as a might, I just can't keep the fingers/wrist in the position needed for that flick into a googly release position. There's always that little movement that leaves me struggling to get beyond a top spinning position at release. I know the only way to fix this is to just keep working on it. But, having looked around on the net I have found all kinds of info on body position/alignment for the googly. So I'd like to see what people, who can bowl a googly, think about the difference between that delivery and a leg spinner.

I've seen some people say the following:

1. More front-on than the leg spinner

2. Drop the left shoulder more than the leg spinner

3. Right arm more upright than the leg spinner

4. Slightly wider grip between index and middle finger


I was also wondering about the spinning finger. Obviously it is important for all wrist spin variations, but is there something different about how the spinning finger is used for the googly?

 

[SLA]

You will know more than me with you being a coach of U12s, but in my experience it is tough giving advice to young cricketers and even more so with psychological advice. They just want to bat and/or bowl. They don't want to listen to this boring bloke droning on about mindset etc. There's one young lad who does listen and actually comes and asks my advice. That's quite rare amongst young lads. I don't envy you and anyone else trying to coach young players.

Yes, I think the key is not to bang on for 10 minutes about mindset and concentration while they fidget and kick each other and you pretend not to notice, but just to give them one little nugget of advice every session. Of course, they have to be good nuggets if they're going to help.

 

[Darth Spin]

Try as a might, I just can't keep the fingers/wrist in the position needed for that flick into a googly release position. There's always that little movement that leaves me struggling to get beyond a top spinning position at release. I know the only way to fix this is to just keep working on it. But, having looked around on the net I have found all kinds of info on body position/alignment for the googly. So I'd like to see what people, who can bowl a googly, think about the difference between that delivery and a leg spinner.

I've seen some people say the following:

1. More front-on than the leg spinner

2. Drop the left shoulder more than the leg spinner

3. Right arm more upright than the leg spinner

4. Slightly wider grip between index and middle finger


I was also wondering about the spinning finger. Obviously it is important for all wrist spin variations, but is there something different about how the spinning finger is used for the googly?

1. I haven't noticed this much but suspect it's true as thinking about it I don't make as much effort to get properly side on when bowling the wrong un as opposed to leg break. I think in an ideal world both actions should be as similar as possible. Maybe this is one reason people with googly syndrome struggle to get their leg break back - not side on enough.

2. I agree with Philpott and think this is bad advice. Surely you compromise your natural pace and accuracy messing about with the front shoulder. Avoid, in my humble opinion.

3. Possibly but not necessarily. Personally my natural action is quite high anyway and I have to consciously lower it sometimes for the leg break.

4. I didn't do this on purpose at first but think it happens instinctively when bowling a lot of wrong uns. I think it makes the release a little cleaner - easier for the ball to get up and out the back of the hand - and possibly ups the revs. The fingers should be widened a little, not by much. So the ball sits just a little tighter in the grip.

I don't think there's any difference with the spinning finger. It's the same release. Any adjustments like grip, arm height etc. are subtle. Have you tried bowling it underarm, round arm etc. and over shorter distances? Everyone is different but my advice if you're that determined would just be to practice the release hand to hand relentlessly and then go under arm, round arm, 10 yards, 12, etc. i.e the boring way. Another thing I found useful when learning was to have my wrist in the wrong un position at the start of my run up.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I don't think there's any difference with the spinning finger. It's the same release. Any adjustments like grip, arm height etc. are subtle. Have you tried bowling it underarm, round arm etc. and over shorter distances? Everyone is different but my advice if you're that determined would just be to practice the release hand to hand relentlessly and then go under arm, round arm, 10 yards, 12, etc. i.e the boring way. Another thing I found useful when learning was to have my wrist in the wrong un position at the start of my run up.

Good advice there. I had thought about bowling from a standing start with my arm back and in position for the wrong un. I still had that tendency lose the position of keeping the fingers pointing down. I think bowling under arm and round arm over and over again is probably the only way to do it. I must have bowled thousands and thousands of times with the fingers not quite pointing down, so it will take some effort to change that.

I saw this video of Steven Smith bowling his leggie and noticed is hand/wrist position is just like mine. I'm sure I've seen him bowling the wrong un, so I wonder whether he changes his wrist position for the wrong un or whether he manages to rotate his wrist back into line as he flicks the ball out?:

 

[Darth Spin]

I would forget about where your fingers are pointing and not be preoccupied with them. Instead, practice the release and bowling it over short distances, underarm, roundarm etc. and the fingers will take care of themselves.

 

[macca]

I was also wondering about the spinning finger. Obviously it is important for all wrist spin variations, but is there something different about how the spinning finger is used for the googly?

Googly and Wrongun both spun off third finger but for the wrongun the ball should come around the 4th finger. The ball might lightly brush the fourth finger after third finger has done it's thing on a wrongun. And the whole back of the hand including the 4th finger should face straight down at the ground. Try it now, if you hold your hand out and make the back of it, fingers and all, face completely down then it is a bit of a twist isn't it? Makes your'e elbow point straight up.

Practicing up against a wall can help. You can spin legbreaks to yourself and catch them with your left hand then try some wronguns around the 4th finger out of the back of your hand and catch those with your right hand.

Best off working on wrongun in the off season and really a good legbreak and a straighter one on the stumps is mostly enough anyway.

 

[macca]

Boyce and Muirhead have both brought back the art and craft of legspin to massive free to air tv and live audiences for weeks now. Last night they were bowling like Warne and MacGill in their prime.

Hogg and Zampa weren't too shabby either in the BBL, but Boyce and Muirhead are out on their own at the moment.

Boyce has the full bag of tricks, lands them where he pleases and always has a plan that seems to come off.

Muirhead has the big booming legbreak. What has impressed me is the zip of the sidespin along with the width.

Legspin has proved to be the best attacking and defending bowling option for the whole BBL season.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Googly and Wrongun both spun off third finger but for the wrongun the ball should come around the 4th finger. The ball might lightly brush the fourth finger after third finger has done it's thing on a wrongun. And the whole back of the hand including the 4th finger should face straight down at the ground. Try it now, if you hold your hand out and make the back of it, fingers and all, face completely down then it is a bit of a twist isn't it? Makes your'e elbow point straight up.

Practicing up against a wall can help. You can spin legbreaks to yourself and catch them with your left hand then try some wronguns around the 4th finger out of the back of your hand and catch those with your right hand.

Best off working on wrongun in the off season and really a good legbreak and a straighter one on the stumps is mostly enough anyway.

I'm in England, so our season is due to start in about 2 months time. I'm on the verge of giving up on the wrong un and just sticking with the things I can bowl and bowl well (leggie, slider and flipper). I just can't help thinking how much of a difference a wrong un makes. It's not a delivery I'd look to as a wicket taking delivery. It's just nice to get that delivery out early in a spell, just so the batter knows you have it - even if you never bowl it again.

I had a feeling the ball came around the 4th finger. I'll just have to keep working on it. I have a real problem reversing the hand. My best efforts so far have seen the back of the hand facing towards gully, rather than the batter. It does move towards leg stump now and then, but we are talking really slow, loopy things that are of no practical use. When I try and bowl at full speed I can just about manage the top spinner. I suppose it's just a case of practice and practice to try and get that release.

Legspin has proved to be the best attacking and defending bowling option for the whole BBL season.

It was telling that the Hurricanes opted to go with Boyce rather than Doherty and it paid off. Boyce has a bit of an unusual action and doesn't get as much wrist flick as Muirhead. Muirhead's action is one you could show to all young kids as an example of textbook leg spin. Very impressive technique with really nice balance and rhythm.

Interestingly, Boyce bowls a lot more wrong uns than Muirhead. Muirhead tried a few things in final over yesterday and they didn't come off for him. His leg spinner is so good and effective, that he doesn't really need to try variations as much as Boyce. I noticed that Boyce does naturally drop that left shoulder in all his deliveries and it means that his wrong un is that much harder to pick.

I wonder if Boyce and Muirhead are in the IPL auction?

 

[Darth Spin]

Try it now, if you hold your hand out and make the back of it, fingers and all, face completely down then it is a bit of a twist isn't it? Makes your'e elbow point straight up.

Bit of a twist and a high elbow is a great description of the release.

Sounds to me like you're a natural side spinner of the ball, Clean Prophet? I'm more of a natural 45 degree leggie, and think the progression to bowling wrong uns is easier from there. Similarly to you I wish I had a slider in my repertoire but I just don't think I'm cut out for it unless I practice it at the expense of other deliveries, which ultimately seems counterproductive.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Bit of a twist and a high elbow is a great description of the release.

Sounds to me like you're a natural side spinner of the ball, Clean Prophet? I'm more of a natural 45 degree leggie, and think the progression to bowling wrong uns is easier from there. Similarly to you I wish I had a slider in my repertoire but I just don't think I'm cut out for it unless I practice it at the expense of other deliveries, which ultimately seems counterproductive.

It's a strange one. I always thought I bowled naturally with more side spin and that would make a wrong un that much tougher. But I actually tend to bowl the ball with about 80% over spin and 20% side spin. I watched a video of my bowling and saw that the back of my hand naturall points somewhere between cover and point. Watching that left me thinking that I should be able to bowl the top spinner and the wrong un without too much problem. That said, I can bowl that slider very nicely (I probably had the slider before I even had the leggie fully nailed down) and the slider is generally, as you say, a delivery that good bowlers of a wrong us struggle with.

I remember seeing someone try leg spin for the first time last season and he was bowling wrong uns almost entirely. He just couldn't get any side spin on it at all. I remember someone saying that it is more natural to bowl a wrong un than a leggie. Maybe it is, but that seems odd to me of it is (it would I suppose given that I can't bowl the wrong un).

I suspect that I need to get that twist/snap at the point of release. There must be something in my action, a sub-conscious thing, that pushes me into more of a leg spinning release when I try to flick the ball out. I have to work on getting that flick with a wrong un action and that will mean doing some practice. That excersize that Macca mentioned of bowling against a wall and getting the ball coming around the 4th finger is something I'll try. I suspect/hope that once I get that release right, I'll make a bit of a breakthrough.

This looks like a good video of how to bowl a wrong un. There are some clips of the wrong un (one from Imran Tahir) that shows little or no contact from the 4th finger. This one, I think, shows exactly what you are looking for when bowling the textbook wrong un: