Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[SLA]

"When I asked him if he knew how to bowl a top-spinner through the front of his fingers he seemed surprised"

No wonder he was surprised, there is no such delivery. Apparently Bob Simpson isn't a source to be trusted either. He can't even figure out the difference between topspin and backspin, even my 12 year old juniors have figured that out.

 

[SLA]

Just some pictures for clarification:
Here's the clip of Warne, he's clearly bowling a topspinner of some sort, as the fingers are coming down the front of the ball.


Here is Warne's slider being released:

Here is MacGill's slider being released:


and here is Steve Smith's slider being released:


Notice how they're all coming off the end of the fingers with the wrist in a neutral or slightly pronated position, not off the side of the finger with the wrist in a supinated position as described by Philpott.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Someone better get on to those clowns at pitchvision and shut this down before someone seriously injures themselves attempting the impossible.
http://www.pitchvision.com/how-to-bowl-a-slider

They have fallen victim to the benaud/philpott/jenner backspinner hoax. What a joke, they cant even describe it right, they must be pommies going on their complete ignorance of legspin. Easy victims for Benauds backspun wristspinner tosh.
.

I did read that yesterday and thought to myself: "the thumb must face the batsmen.."? wtf. That is, essentially, the exact opposite of what you are trying to do. Bizarre.

 

[Cleanprophet]

There is a level of sarcasm here that is clearly going way over my head.

I'm with you. I'm starting to believe Macca is being serious. If he isn't, he has taken sarcasm to new levels that has spread out over about a dozen posts!

Based upon the thread he and Dave did about backspinning deliveries, I am taking the view that he is using sarcasm, but he is starting to convince of otherwise.

"When I asked him if he knew how to bowl a top-spinner through the front of his fingers he seemed surprised"

No wonder he was surprised, there is no such delivery. Apparently Bob Simpson isn't a source to be trusted either. He can't even figure out the difference between topspin and backspin, even my 12 year old juniors have figured that out.

True. It just shows how difficult it is to get clarity on spin bowling and all the variations. How can you possibly impart top spin through the front of your fingers? The only way to do it is with an upside down hand and that is what is known as the wrong un/googly.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Notice how they're all coming off the end of the fingers with the wrist in a neutral or slightly pronated position, not off the side of the finger with the wrist in a supinated position as described by Philpott.

That Steve Smith looks like he is using that Iverson grip.

That is all pretty much what I've always understood to be the 'slider'. Jenner's description of a 'slider' seems to be what is also known as the 'zooter' or a backspinner. That's pretty much the nub of the confusion and it's why all mentions of the slider should be about these deliveries out of the front of the hand.

There is footage of Warne in the West indies trying to bowl a backspinner by flicking his wrist so that the back of his comes from facing skywards to facing himself. It wasn't a delivery that really worked.

Incidently, I've been down to the nets today and tried that backspinner/zooter and I now do believe it is very much possible to bowl. What Jenner describes in that BBC video and then bowls is possible. Providing you get your wrist in the right position (palm facing the ground and fingers directed legside) and then flick it hard so that the palm then faces the side of your own face, it is very possible. I would imagine that such a delivery would be quite easy to spot however.

 

[SLA]

That Steve Smith looks like he is using that Iverson grip.

That is all pretty much what I've always understood to be the 'slider'. Jenner's description of a 'slider' seems to be what is also known as the 'zooter' or a backspinner. That's pretty much the nub of the confusion and it's why all mentions of the slider should be about these deliveries out of the front of the hand.

There is footage of Warne in the West indies trying to bowl a backspinner by flicking his wrist so that the back of his comes from facing skywards to facing himself. It wasn't a delivery that really worked.

Incidently, I've been down to the nets today and tried that backspinner/zooter and I now do believe it is very much possible to bowl. What Jenner describes in that BBC video and then bowls is possible. Providing you get your wrist in the right position (palm facing the ground and fingers directed legside) and then flick it hard so that the palm then faces the side of your own face, it is very possible. I would imagine that such a delivery would be quite easy to spot however.

Indeed, with the wrist turned in like that at the point of release, even if it was possible to let go of it in roughly the right direction with some kind of slowish backspin, you'd look like you were trying to bowl a really badly disguised offbreak and had messed it up royally. Its hard (if not impossible) to bowl, easy to pick, and generally a bit crap. Which is why no-one actually bowls it outside of coaching videos.

I had never heard the term "slider" in cricket before 2005 when Warne made it famous, although I had bowled similar deliveries myself without really feeling the need to name them. Since then it has become pretty standard terminology - even with its own wikipedia page - and a delivery that most pro legspinners seem to be able to incorporate with relative ease. Its not a particularly incredible ball in its own right, but its easy to bowl, easy to disguise, and becomes very dangerous once a batsman starts assuming that every ball will dip and turn just like the last one did.

You think this is bad, in baseball they had an entire school of batting mechanics called "linear hitting" that was taught to little league players for almost 20 years, endorsed and demo'd by pros and everything, yet not a single professional player had ever hit like that, even the ones that would come and do a demonstration of a hitting technique they didn't actually use. Because of course, it was completely useless.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Notice how they're all coming off the end of the fingers with the wrist in a neutral or slightly pronated position, not off the side of the finger with the wrist in a supinated position as described by Philpott.

Indeed, with the wrist turned in like that at the point of release, even if it was possible to let go of it in roughly the right direction with some kind of slowish backspin, you'd look like you were trying to bowl a really badly disguised offbreak and had messed it up royally. Its hard (if not impossible) to bowl, easy to pick, and generally a bit crap. Which is why no-one actually bowls it outside of coaching videos.

I had never heard the term "slider" in cricket before 2005 when Warne made it famous, although I had bowled similar deliveries myself without really feeling the need to name them. Since then it has become pretty standard terminology - even with its own wikipedia page - and a delivery that most pro legspinners seem to be able to incorporate with relative ease. Its not a particularly incredible ball in its own right, but its easy to bowl, easy to disguise, and becomes very dangerous once a batsman starts assuming that every ball will dip and turn just like the last one did.

You think this is bad, in baseball they had an entire school of batting mechanics called "linear hitting" that was taught to little league players for almost 20 years, endorsed and demo'd by pros and everything, yet not a single professional player had ever hit like that, even the ones that would come and do a demonstration of a hitting technique they didn't actually use. Because of course, it was completely useless.

And that is, fundamentally, the key point: is it any good? I'm sure it is possible to bowl this backspinner in a more disguised way then I can do it. The footage of Jenner bowling it is very grainy and not at all clear, but you can see that at the take back point his wrist is not cocked at all.

It is easy to get caught up in all these variations. Effectively there is the side-spinner, leg-spinner, top-spinner, wrong un (1), wrong un (2), slider, zooter, back-spinning flipper and the top-spinner flipper. The reason Warne was such a good leg spinner was because his leg spinner was so good (with plenty of drift, dip, turn and bounce) and, most importantly, very accurate. He did bowl the flipper really well early on in his career, but for the most part he focused on varying between side-spin and top-spin for his entire career. The variations can be a distraction, even if they are interesting.

 

[macca]

That Steve Smith looks like he is using that Iverson grip.

That is all pretty much what I've always understood to be the 'slider'. Jenner's description of a 'slider' seems to be what is also known as the 'zooter' or a backspinner. That's pretty much the nub of the confusion and it's why all mentions of the slider should be about these deliveries out of the front of the hand.

There is footage of Warne in the West indies trying to bowl a backspinner by flicking his wrist so that the back of his comes from facing skywards to facing himself. It wasn't a delivery that really worked.

Incidently, I've been down to the nets today and tried that backspinner/zooter and I now do believe it is very much possible to bowl. What Jenner describes in that BBC video and then bowls is possible. Providing you get your wrist in the right position (palm facing the ground and fingers directed legside) and then flick it hard so that the palm then faces the side of your own face, it is very possible. I would imagine that such a delivery would be quite easy to spot however.

Make up your mind mate, yesterday you reckoned it was impossible to bowl now you reckon you are on the verge of being able to bowl it yourself!

 

[macca]

"When I asked him if he knew how to bowl a top-spinner through the front of his fingers he seemed surprised"

No wonder he was surprised, there is no such delivery. Apparently Bob Simpson isn't a source to be trusted either. He can't even figure out the difference between topspin and backspin, even my 12 year old juniors have figured that out.

Incredible isn't it? All these test match legspinners like Simpson, Philpott and Jenner can't be trusted. A twelve year old can see through their backspinning topsinner rubbish.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Make up your mind mate, yesterday you reckoned it was impossible to bowl now you reckon you are on the verge of being able to bowl it yourself!

In essence, this is the problem. I don't know anyone who bowls the backspinner and the information available on it is small and, in places, contradictory. I could stand with my arm in front of me and spin the ball out with backspin, but trying to bowl it always left my hand in a position where the back of the hand faced up and ball came out with side-spin (and a small amount of side-spin at that). Releasing the ball so that the thumb faced me upon release was not possible with my wrist position. It was only watching that grainy image of Jenner and reading what someone had said on here about 3 years ago that I realised I needed to hold my wrist in a different position and snap it into place at the point of release.

I can't bowl it yet, but I have the action going and looking pretty good. Doing it with a full and proper bowling action is a different matter. I can only echo what SLA has said in that I can't but wonder why this delivery isn't known about much more. Why don't any modern leg spinners bowl it for example?

 

[Darth Spin]

Confused? If you are English or in anyway non-Australian I f*****g hope so.

Pah. Wait until you see my secret ball.

*taps nose*

 

[SLA]

Incredible isn't it? All these test match legspinners like Simpson, Philpott and Jenner can't be trusted. A twelve year old can see through their backspinning topsinner rubbish.

I don't know whether you're being sarky or not, but actually, yes that is precisely the point. Just like Usain Bolt may not be the foremost academic expert on the biomechanics of sprinting, there is no guarantee that just because someone had a successful bowling career means they understood the intricate mechanics of what they were doing.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

No I didn't go as far as Wikipedia, too much aggro setting that up Macca!

 

[leftie600]

That's a carrom ball of some description then, no?

Its certainly not the ball that Philpott described.

Fair call, by nature the delivery has to be more finger spun than wrist spun (although as we know it's pretty difficult to do one without the other). Note that when I deliver it the thumb is 'pointing' toward me or even further around the axis so it is pointing along my right ear. I started bowling this ball when I was about 18, stumbled on it mucking around in backyard cricket when I discovered how much a slider can drift. I thought to myself "if a slider can drift that much by slightly rotating the wrist inwards then what happens with the full extension?", this was well before I read anything about Grimmett or Philpott or even 'going around the loop'. I have been bowling what I call an 'OBS', back-spun delivery with the hand almost in the same position as an off-spinners topspinner (just to confuse people) and the slider (as shown above, 'spat' out the front of the hand) for 19 years now. I haven't met in person any other spinner who uses the same grip as me so as such I haven't met anyone else who can/does bowl the OBS regularly.

I'll try and get some slow-mo footage of it but I'm not much of a tech person.

It should be noted that it isn't a particularly special delivery, very useful on green decks but on a good wicket it is more obvious than a slider due to the seam being bolt upright.

 

[leftie600]

Just don't call them Armstrong/ Iverson deliveries, I just got wind some pommy invented them before the first Captain Cook ( don't mention the second captain cook) came to both our shores.

Have you got a good aboriginal name we can call it? I was thinking of renaming it the taiaha after the Maori weapon.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Fair call, by nature the delivery has to be more finger spun than wrist spun (although as we know it's pretty difficult to do one without the other). Note that when I deliver it the thumb is 'pointing' toward me or even further around the axis so it is pointing along my right ear. I started bowling this ball when I was about 18, stumbled on it mucking around in backyard cricket when I discovered how much a slider can drift. I thought to myself "if a slider can drift that much by slightly rotating the wrist inwards then what happens with the full extension?", this was well before I read anything about Grimmett or Philpott or even 'going around the loop'. I have been bowling what I call an 'OBS', back-spun delivery with the hand almost in the same position as an off-spinners topspinner (just to confuse people) and the slider (as shown above, 'spat' out the front of the hand) for 19 years now. I haven't met in person any other spinner who uses the same grip as me so as such I haven't met anyone else who can/does bowl the OBS regularly.

I'll try and get some slow-mo footage of it but I'm not much of a tech person.

It should be noted that it isn't a particularly special delivery, very useful on green decks but on a good wicket it is more obvious than a slider due to the seam being bolt upright.

I have bowled the OBS with a leg-spin grip couple of times. The vital aspect is the position of the wrist and the flick, so you can avoid putting so much side-spin on the ball that it turns (it is difficult, if not impossible, to get a pure backspin with a leg spin grip though). After trying it for a net session or two, I felt bowled the side-spinner too regularly, so I didn't bother with the delivery any more. I had a far more consistent straight one with either the flipper or just pushing the ball out of the first of the hand.

Also, when I did bowl the OBS with a leg spin grip, my wrist had to come right around, in a similar position to an off spinner's topspinner (i.e. after the flick, my palm facing the off side, thumb tip to the sky and front edge of the thumb pointing somewhere between me and outside my right ear).

 

[macca]

I don't know whether you're being sarky or not, but actually, yes that is precisely the point. Just like Usain Bolt may not be the foremost academic expert on the biomechanics of sprinting, there is no guarantee that just because someone had a successful bowling career means they understood the intricate mechanics of what they were doing.

Yeah but Philpott, Jenner and Simpson had long careers as coaches as well. They coached national teams and individual players for years. Philpott was brought into the England rooms by Atherton to demystify Warne and one of the deliveries he told them that a legspinner has in his arsenal is this fantastical thing called "backspinning topspinner" No wonder they performed worse after the Philpott lesson, he had them looking out for deliveries that dont even exist!

Jenner of course was a convicted felon and fraudster who spent time in gaol so it is no surprise he is on the bbc pretending to bowl a backspinner. He probably had to come up with something mysterious to keep that job he scored over there trying to find an English Legspinner. That is what killed him really, it would be easier to find a yeti, big foot and the tasmanian tiger then an Englishman who understood, let alone could bowl wrist spin.

 

[macca]

I have bowled the OBS with a leg-spin grip couple of times .

No you didn't, you just thought you did. Don't be disappointed though apparently some of the greatest legspinners in history have been as self delusional at some stage. A biomechanic and slomo will set you straight, they are always correct.

One thing you should learn from this non existent backspinning topspinning Philpott cock and bull story is never trust a legend no matter how great they were, they most probably had little clue what they were doing. SLA set me straight on that one.

I propose we all burn our copies of "art of wrist spin bowling" and go back to the works of Grimmett. He never mentions a backspinner off the wrist and he experimented more than any bowler in history. If it was there he would have found it, kept it a secret, then bragged about it when he retired.

 

[macca]

Have you got a good aboriginal name we can call it? I was thinking of renaming it the taiaha after the Maori weapon.

I love taiaha.

I dont know if you know the Jack Iverson story but it has to be one of the, if not the most incredible stories in the history of the game.

Funny how Iverson, Dooland and Pepper developed their mystery balls during their service in world war two. Doug Ring reckoned he developed a backspinner during the war whilst serving the King as well, but we now know that was a hoax.

 

[macca]

I think if you look at demo richie does here of the doug ring ball , it is not the philpott/jenner/simpson mythical backspinner. Just the old fashioned straightone or what we call a slider these days.

Philpott must have went round the loop in his head as well as his wrist because if you read all his works and coaching manuals he convinced himself and others that Benaud's "sliding topspinner" ( Benauds description from 1969) was a pure backspinner.