Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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chippyben said:
Marriott seems to be a different bowler to what I am striving for but its still worth a read although the title 'The complete leg spin bowler" might be a bit of a misnomer. He bowled seam up yorkers at full pace to batsman who played back to him. He cocked his wrist til the last second to disguise it and then let fly. He also bowled off spin deliveries instead of wrong uns because bowling wronguns had caused him an injury. He believed it was just as good as he could disguise it well enough to trick most batsmen.?? He was a very sucessful cricketer in his day but following his style would seem to be sacrificing the deception of flight and drift.
I couldnt sleep the other night so I sat up watching Richie Benaud and Terry Jenners videos on youtube and I had a bit of a Eureka moment. I realised that I had been letting my wrist fall back into a position that was restricting my ability to get it to all work together with the fingers. I then went to a mirror and just worked on trying to understand what my wrist was doing and what would work best. Something I wish I had taken time to do when I first started. Its hard to see exactly what the wrist is doing even in slow motion on video. Anyhow I was so excited at the prospect of improvement I got up at sunrise before work and tried it out for an hour. Well it worked a treat and bowling off one step I even got a few wrong uns to work. Now I can see how it would be more natural feeling if you bowled it too much. Another thing I noticed which got me turning the wrong un a little is bowling it round arm as on the few previous occasions Ive mucked around with it Ive tried to get a high action and it hasnt worked for me. How exciting is the wrongun!!! I have had to be very disciplined not to bowl too many.
With the change of wrist position I have finally developed an action for the leg break that I think I can reproduce consistently and that I am very happy with. Its only taken a year!!!
At training tonight the results really shone through as I bowled only leg breaks, nothing else and was very consistently on the spot, and bad balls only slightly bad not long hops or big full tosses. The highlight being a leg break pitching on leg and taking the top of off stump.
All the hard work is starting to pay off and it is very satisfying and exciting in a way Ive never experienced with pace bowling.
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Sounds like you've had a bit of a result there, interesting that looking in the mirror has worked for you with regards understanding what it is that you're really doing as you release the ball. Might be something I might do and see if I notice anything of note in my own action. I think I've had a pretty good year this year as well with regards to get my action sorted a bit and bowling the Leg Break with the pronounced flick rather than a 'Roll'. But saying that the roll works pretty good for me, but it's a fairly exhuberent 'Roll' that some people might even call a flick?
 
Ive been striving to get an action that I feel really comfortable and confident with and that I can rely on especially in pressure situations and that is what I feel I have just about achieved.I think thats what you have been aiming for too Dave. The only thing I need to keep on top of is following through and pivoting properly. Occasionally through tiredness lack of concentration or when Im bowling at batsmen I pull up a bit short. Now I just need to bowl about 5000 overs and I might make a passable leg spin bowler. All the advice Doctortran and Jim gave me has really worked although at the time it didnt feel like it would and it took some discipline to keep persisting with it.
With regards to the mirror I can highly recommend it to get an understanding of the wrist action especially for the balls that come out of the front of the hand. Thats the hard spun leg break and slider and other back spinning variations. Im still a long way away from bowling any of these with any real consistency though.
Im going to read the wrong un threads now to see what I can pick up on that. Im sure Ill be asking you advice on bowling it though Dave as your the expert on the subject on this forum.
 
chippyben said:
Now I just need to bowl about 5000 overs and I might make a passable leg spin bowler.
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HAHA! Maybe not that many. But they do say 3000 (or was it 300?) [oh no I checked... yeah its 3000] deliveries for every major mechanic change before you are home free. What is that 500 overs?

No wonder every international leg spinner gets a bummed out shoulder.

P.S. It is 3000 repetitions of the mechanic movement. So you can practice without bowling... if you think that will help at all?!?
 
I probably bowl close to 75 overs per week so it should only take a few months which is promising. Im determined to get it nailed down. I hadnt thought of practice without a ball but I do check out my bowling action often in my mirrored wardrobe doors most days. That has been the biggest help in evolving my action.
 
My young bloke had a good start to the season, bowling wise. His first over was a wicket maiden. Got the first wicket for his team and broke the opening partnership that had gone past 70. Two run outs happened in his first two overs so it was all happening when the legspinner was on.

The openers did not look like getting out till my son had a go at them. First ball must have been the topspinner, it hit the batsman on the throat. Third ball he bowled, wicket, stumped. Great glovework from keeper.

The ball that took the wicket was just outside off stump, and it spun a long way. Strewth he bowled some good stuff today, could have had another couple of wickets. One bad ball is all I can remember that was a bit short down legside and went for 4, apart from that he was close to perfect line and length. He got square driven for 4 as well but that was just an excellent shot.

Something we have been working on is bowling at the lefthanders from around the wicket. Not straight away, but after one or two deliveries. It nearly payed off today. I bat lefthanded against him a fair bit and I have noticed he goes a lot better coming around the wicket and pitching a foot outside the lefthanders off stump.

He ended up 3 overs, 1 maiden, 1 wicket for 9 runs. He was promised an extra couple of overs at the end but the coach went with pace instead in the end. He went alright with the bat today as well but they lost the game.
 
Sounds like a good effort Macca, only 3 overs with those figures though? seems like he was a bit stiff not to get more. Hitting a bloke in the throat, Geez!! must get some revs on it. Maybe he can combine the intimidation of a fast bowler with his leg breaks!!

We won our match outright today. We got 131 all out so had a lead of 150. We got them out for 110. Our team only used 3 bowlers for the entire match to get the 19 wickets(1 run out). I bowled rubbish today but finished with match figures of 23-8-78-5. I managed to get one of the most pathetic golden ducks ever seen on a field anywhere too. I cant explain it at all. The bowler bowled one straight on middle stump and I just left it, offered no shot and was fired out plumb LBW.

Anyhow I went back and read the introduction to "The Complete Leg Break Bowler" which was written by Ian Peebles.
Here is an excerpt that I thought would be good to share. It deals with the question what is the most satisfying moment to be had in sport. 'the man who has at some time spun a good leg break knows a world all of its own. It doesnt matter if it was fast and certain as by Sidney Barnes, or slow and vastly spun like the unpredictable mixture which was Arthur Mailey's pleasure. It is more likely that the memory will be one glimpse of the promised land amidst a stormy sea full tosses, long hops, anguished oaths and umpires signals, but that glimpse is a vision never forgotton. Its prelude is a run up without hesitation, an action where for once feet and arms function in perfect coordination, and its culmination a firm snapping flip of the fingers . It is at that moment that the bowler knows that he has produced his masterpiece.
It is with joy and astonishment that he sees it swoop and drop, to leap from the pitch with bounding change of direction, past bat and pad, maybe stump and gauntlet. What of it - art has been fulfilled. Which is not to say that the artist wont blaspheme if art goes unrewarded.
It could be that such moments can be too few, or too expensive, to permit their author to create a career on them. But having once had a taste he will be an addict from then on"
Very poetic I thought.
He also says about being economical "It is not only beyond the capability of the ordinary leg spin bowler, but alien to his natural function to seek to contain scoring to the exclusion of taking wickets. This is beautifully illustrated in a tale by Arthur Mailey. He recalled that he had once bowled three maidens in a row in a test match. At that Warwick Armstrong took him off, with the terse comment that he had got lots of people who could bowl maiden overs"
 
chippyben said:
Sounds like a good effort Macca, only 3 overs with those figures though? seems like he was a bit stiff not to get more. Hitting a bloke in the throat, Geez!! must get some revs on it. Maybe he can combine the intimidation of a fast bowler with his leg breaks!!
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Yeah the most they get to bowl in the 30 over games is 5 overs and he probably deserved a couple of the extra overs but they went for pace instead.

The opposition scored 4/155. During my sons 3 overs, 3 wickets fell for 9 runs. Two of them were run-outs but one of the run-outs came about because of the way the ball was still spinning off the bat and went in a big arc away from where the batsman thought he had hit it and it ended up going straight to point, almost caught then the return had the batsman short.

I wasn't sure how he was going to go today. But I thought if he got a couple of overs he was almost certain to get wickets. It's like fishing, you serve up the right bait in the right conditions and you can almost guarantee you will catch a feed of fish. Same with legspin, serve up legbreaks and the variations on a good length in the wind on a hard surface and you are going to get results.

My kid has a knack of breaking opening partnerships. Yesterday the other teams opening pair were flogging our pace attack and were well set. Two good front foot batsmen they were. This little guy went forwards to my sons first delivery, it must have hit the seam with straight topspin and it took off and got him on the throat.That ball changed the whole tempo and momentum of the batsmen and also got the fielding side clapping and voicing some encouragement. Two balls later he had one of them out stumped. The first wicket of the season. You little beauty.

At the end of his first over of the season, a wicket maiden, i felt there had been a certain amount of inevitability about that result, given the work and preparation he has put on over the last few weeks.
 
You have just about summed up the reason I have taken up leg spin bowling there Macca. As Ive got older and lost a lot of my pace after a knee reconstruction I have found myself often like those impotent fast bowlers you describe, toiling away with no real hope of getting a wicket only to see a spinner come on and get wickets and make chances with nearly every delivery.!!!
 
Yeah it is amazing how many blokes can play pace bowling (not genuine express) with relative ease but struggle to time their shots when the spinner comes on. You probably set up a few blokes for the spinners back when you only did pace.

You sound like you are in a pretty good winning side at the moment ?
 
im getting my first taste of indoor cricket this evening. weve got 2 matches at the local cricket centre. will be interesting to see how i get on with my leg spin, i havent even bowled in about a month or so, and with the stricter rules on wides, etc it might prove tough. everyone is already telling me il get smashed all over the place, wont turn the ball, will struggle for bounce, etc. we will see. i got told the same thing before bowling on an artificial wicket in the summer and i ended up with 3 wickets in 2 overs, and could have had 6, including a semi-bowled behind the legs (the batsmen helped it on with his edge), and the ball turning around corners.

so im quite up for the challenge. i love it when people write me off before ive even started. my confidence is sky high at the moment because of the way i bowled at the end of the season and in practice since. hopefully the batsmen will all be out of touch as well and will just hand me their wickets!
 
Jim2109 said:
im getting my first taste of indoor cricket this evening. weve got 2 matches at the local cricket centre. will be interesting to see how i get on with my leg spin, i havent even bowled in about a month or so, and with the stricter rules on wides, etc it might prove tough. everyone is already telling me il get smashed all over the place, wont turn the ball, will struggle for bounce, etc. we will see. i got told the same thing before bowling on an artificial wicket in the summer and i ended up with 3 wickets in 2 overs, and could have had 6, including a semi-bowled behind the legs (the batsmen helped it on with his edge), and the ball turning around corners.

so im quite up for the challenge. i love it when people write me off before ive even started. my confidence is sky high at the moment because of the way i bowled at the end of the season and in practice since. hopefully the batsmen will all be out of touch as well and will just hand me their wickets!
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Key with indoor is that when you''re a spinner slogging gets worse. Keep changing lengths, loop it like rainbow and then bowl the flipper very often. You may even want to revert to seam up as a variation as well.

Also there is nothing more frustrating for a captain than seeing a batsman try to slog and get out. So hit the ball into the nets. 2 runs per ball = 12 an over. 7 (-5) 7 (-5) 7 (-5) = 6 an over.
 
yeh i know im going to have to be intelligent with variations indoors, its not dissimilar to playing against GOOD T20 players i reckon. obviously il find out later lol.

the flipper is off the cards for me, its too inconsistent. il use the zooter as my stock ball though, i need to negate the added bounce for the leg break so backspin is order of the day. since ive been practicing pace bowling lately (well, the last few times i practiced a month or so ago) ive found a ton of pace in my seam up stuff, so ive got that as a backup plan. i can bowl at about 48mph off of my leg spin approach (stock leg breaks are about 38mph) and i tend to bowl inswinging yorkers as my stock pace ball. its caught 2 batsmen off guard in 2 attempts, one JUST dug it out, the other got nowhere near but it missed the stumps.

im really looking forward to it. i think the first thing to ensure though is that im accurate. il get absolutely killed on wide balls! at least the turn should be 100% consistent because the surface is flat and the ball has no seam. so i can trust it to pitch outside leg and come back, provided the surface grips enough.
 
Had a bowl on my own on tramac today with Hockey balls and is was joined by a bloke who used to have a knock about with us a few years ago. He complimented me on my leg breaks and was gagging to go home and get his bat, but I was about to leave. Talking to him though he was saying that he was more than up for having a knock about as he lived literally minutes away from the Tennis courts where I was practicing and then he went on to say that in his backyard he had his own nets and wicket and mats that he rolls out to play on and said that before the weather closes in we should get in the nets and have a bat. So that sounds very promising in the short term and maybe even better next summer. As I recall this bloke was a half decent batsman, but I did used to get him with my wrong uns!
 
Jim2109 said:
im getting my first taste of indoor cricket this evening. weve got 2 matches at the local cricket centre. will be interesting to see how i get on with my leg spin,
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I reckon you will turn it big Jim2109. My young bloke gets massive turn indoors. He has to pitch leg or outside leg and even then it can turn too much and be called wide on the offside. 3 strike rule gives legspinners an extra mode of dismissal as well.

The safest ball indoors is the topspinner. You get lots of caught and bowls and double plays with the toppie.

Opening the doors at the venue can create a good breeze as well!
 
had a mixed performance today indoors. we played 2 matches back to back, which should be really easy given that its only 12 overs, but its surprisingly gruelling! or just a sign that i need to get fitter lol.

first game was against one of the best sides in the area, theyre a Southern Premier League outfit, although obviously not using their A-squad on sundays, they probably do on mondays (our first team plays in the indoor premier league then). but even so, they were good.

i was the 2nd bowler, opening from one end and bowling through my 3 over spell. first ball was a no ball 6 lol. it took me a few balls to find my length and just relax. after that it all went rather well. i got a catch dropped with about my 4th ball, and it was starting to grip a bit. 2nd over i was turning it really nicely, pitching nice and full, and got one of their openers out stumped coming down the track. it turned past his outside edge beautifully and the keeper took the bails off one handed.

then i did the same again in the next over, almost an identical dismissal but a little bit fuller. then next ball turned miles but missed the stumps for height, the batsman was totally done by it.

my spell ended 3-0-45-2. economy was pretty poor, but a lot of those were extras which was bound to happen, il get that down as i play more and get used to the indoor format. the important thing was the wickets though, as an opening bowler, and the only bowler to get a wicket in that game (we got 2 run outs as well).

2nd game wasnt so great, but slightly unlucky really. i was turning the ball even more, but it was a hinderance. pitching on off stump i was constantly bowling wides. its weird because outside i have a problem of pitching outside leg and then if it doesnt grip its wide leg side. indoors its the total opposite, but ive adapted my game to bowl off stump lines recently (or more like its adapted itself, i quite like bowling leg stump line when i can!), so i need to bowl leg stump. nevertheless, i turned multiple deliveries past the outside edge of good opening batsmen. i had another catch dropped, and 2 almost-stumpings but the batsmen got their feet back in the crease. no wickets though. i had one good duel against a bat that came in and the captain told me hes a straight slogger and he will try to smash me down the ground. first ball i tossed up an absolute cherry on a length and he tried to drive it but couldnt get it away, it just rolled to me down the wicket so i gave him the stare lol. next ball he tried even harder and it ripped and took a huge outside edge, but no slips obviously. he only got me for one straight drive for 4, so not too bad. he took the other bowlers apart! i found that my very overspun leg break was THE delivery to bowl though. it rules out clean bowled, but if the "point" fielder drops to 45 then it brings edges into play nicely (and also makes cuts risky). very few players can cut me square so i can afford to set the field that way. i could probably also bring the square leg in at forward point as well because the ball is always turning across the bat. things to try next time.

ended that game 3-0-42-0 so pretty much the same expensive bowling, but for no wickets. i was still one of the best bowlers though, the team went for 14.75 per over so i was under that. and pretty much equal to it in the first game, and a strike bowler!

also my fielding is pretty good indoors, i love the athletic diving stuff, and theres no risk of the ball going for 4 if you try a stupid dive indoors lol. i made some stops that most other guys wouldnt have made, so ive done myself no harm in getting selected for future matches. we play 2 matches every 3 weeks apparently, so a nice break in between to do some practice.

my batting wasnt great, but i was batting at 6 so i didnt get much time and 50% of the balls i faced were wides or no balls! the 4 that werent i scored 6 runs from so not awful.

all in all a decent performance, and its quite enjoyable. so much for the people telling me it wouldnt turn and id get smashed :D
 
Yeah Jim you have to bowl the warne line indoors it spins that much if you really give it a rip. My son has been wided for bowling balls that pitch outside the leg wide line and spin past the off wide line a few times. Two wides with one ball.

The other thing is to try for more topspin. Get ready for the c & b but keep a cool head and you can often run the non striker out as well for a double play, guaranteed to bring the house down and mark you as pro.

Maybe your first figures are even better if you deduct ten runs from the runs scored against you for the two wickets you took? I think that is how they work it?
 
There used to be 3 indoor cricket centres around our part of Sydney but they have all gone now which is a shame. I reckon it would be good practice bowling against batsmen that are really trying to attack you every ball.
I went to the nets for a bowl this afternoon and after a bit of a solo session where I had leg breaks coming out nicely two Indian blokes in the nets next to me asked if I wanted to bowl at them. The first guy I bowled to stayed in his crease and I was all over him and got him out 4 or 5 times. The next bloke was a different kettle of fish. He used his feet really well getting to the pitch of the ball and more often than not belting my straight back down the ground. Any good length ball he covered well or belted. That led me to bowling a little bit shorter at times which of course he got back to and cut and pulled with ease.
I must admit I was out of ideas with this bloke. I lost a bit of my technique too. The only thing that worked a bit at the end was bowling quicker. I did get him to mistime one and lob it to mid on but in a game situation that man would have almost certainly moved back to the fence by any captain.
Does anyone have tips for this type of batsman??
Macca we have gone up a division and are going great guns. We have picked up 3 good batsman which really helped. Last year we only won 2 games so its a big surprise how good we are going. Much more enjoyable winning a few games.
 
macca - i dont know if the rules we play are true indoor cricket rules or not. i read the rules somewhere online a while back and it said all sorts of things like non strikers run from halfway, etc. our rules are basically the same as normal cricket, except for the scoring. runs arent deducted for wickets, but there are bowling and batting points on offer. you get a point for every 2 wickets as a bowling side, so i took a point single handedly in the first game. overspin did seem to work best though, but then backspin was working too i just dragged it a little short each time. the ball really carries through off the surface compared to outdoor so some of the variations will be much more effective indoors.

chippyben - i think indoor is really useful too as a learning experience for playing against aggressive batsmen. whatever your instincts tell you, if you come up against a batsman that can use their feet and smash you down the ground, keep pitching it up!! dont adapt to their style, youll end up trying to contain them. you have to keep the ball pitched up on their toes with plenty of flight and make them take the risks. put fielders back on the rope in the areas he is targeting, and then pitch the ball up for him. if he wants to take on the field then youre winning, and it should only be a matter of time until youve got him. if youre outclassed then theres not a lot you can do about that though, just do your best, and if that isnt good enough then youll end the match knowing you gave it your best shot. and ask the batsman if hes willing to give any advice on how you could have bowled better at him, e.g. what did he find easy. then youll learn for next time.

i LOVE high class arrogant batsmen that want to hit everything big. they are probably my favourite batsmen to bowl at. i hate bowling at the tail (even though it should be easier) because more often than not then either cant get bat anywhere near ball, or theyll just get lucky over and over again. its hard to stay patient when youre expected to take an easy wicket. even more than the tail though, i hate bowling at stubborn old-school batsmen that just camp in their crease and block and nurdle. the only way to beat them is by mixing up the pace and/or huge drift and turn. anything average and theyve got an answer for it. it drives me mad.
 
chippyben said:
There used to be 3 indoor cricket centres around our part of Sydney but they have all gone now which is a shame. I reckon it would be good practice bowling against batsmen that are really trying to attack you every ball.
I went to the nets for a bowl this afternoon and after a bit of a solo session where I had leg breaks coming out nicely two Indian blokes in the nets next to me asked if I wanted to bowl at them. The first guy I bowled to stayed in his crease and I was all over him and got him out 4 or 5 times. The next bloke was a different kettle of fish. He used his feet really well getting to the pitch of the ball and more often than not belting my straight back down the ground. Any good length ball he covered well or belted. That led me to bowling a little bit shorter at times which of course he got back to and cut and pulled with ease.
I must admit I was out of ideas with this bloke. I lost a bit of my technique too. The only thing that worked a bit at the end was bowling quicker. I did get him to mistime one and lob it to mid on but in a game situation that man would have almost certainly moved back to the fence by any captain.
Does anyone have tips for this type of batsman??
Macca we have gone up a division and are going great guns. We have picked up 3 good batsman which really helped. Last year we only won 2 games so its a big surprise how good we are going. Much more enjoyable winning a few games.
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I'm with you here Chippy Ben, what do you do when you are facing a batsman and he is genuinely good, this is the type of bloke I faced at the start of last season and he destroyed me, more importantly he destroyed my confidence for the rest of the season and it took months before I felt like I could bowl again. This is one of those situations where experience plays an essential part and the requirement of having fielders that can run and keep hold of catches. I've been watching quite a bit of cricket at the moment looking for as much 'Spin action' as possible and I'm realising that the greater percentage of wickets are taken from catches, many on boundaries. In one of the last games I played my mate who's a leggie as well with more experience than me captained the team and set a field for me, 'Bowl your usual stuff' In 5 overs I missed 5-6 potential catches, one of which was a stumping. So I came away with no wickets, but 5-6 balls which went to hand but were dropped, most of the time because the players were just a tad too far back and only just got to the ball with a dive. Fitter players may have got there? What it made me realise was that offering the ball up to be hit is obviously a key tactic, but it requires a good field setting and players that are able and committed to pulling off the necessary catches. Having an awareness of the batsmans strengths and weaknesses is absolutely essential and then being able to put the ball in areas forcing the batsman to play with their weaker shots.
 
Jim2109 said:
macca - i dont know if the rules we play are true indoor cricket rules or not. i read the rules somewhere online a while back and it said all sorts of things like non strikers run from halfway, etc. our rules are basically the same as normal cricket, except for the scoring. runs arent deducted for wickets, but there are bowling and batting points on offer. you get a point for every 2 wickets as a bowling side, so i took a point single handedly in the first game. overspin did seem to work best though, but then backspin was working too i just dragged it a little short each time. the ball really carries through off the surface compared to outdoor so some of the variations will be much more effective indoors.

chippyben - i think indoor is really useful too as a learning experience for playing against aggressive batsmen. whatever your instincts tell you, if you come up against a batsman that can use their feet and smash you down the ground, keep pitching it up!! dont adapt to their style, youll end up trying to contain them. you have to keep the ball pitched up on their toes with plenty of flight and make them take the risks. put fielders back on the rope in the areas he is targeting, and then pitch the ball up for him. if he wants to take on the field then youre winning, and it should only be a matter of time until youve got him. if youre outclassed then theres not a lot you can do about that though, just do your best, and if that isnt good enough then youll end the match knowing you gave it your best shot. and ask the batsman if hes willing to give any advice on how you could have bowled better at him, e.g. what did he find easy. then youll learn for next time.

i LOVE high class arrogant batsmen that want to hit everything big. they are probably my favourite batsmen to bowl at. i hate bowling at the tail (even though it should be easier) because more often than not then either cant get bat anywhere near ball, or theyll just get lucky over and over again. its hard to stay patient when youre expected to take an easy wicket. even more than the tail though, i hate bowling at stubborn old-school batsmen that just camp in their crease and block and nurdle. the only way to beat them is by mixing up the pace and/or huge drift and turn. anything average and theyve got an answer for it. it drives me mad.
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I love them old skool boys, they play proper cricket and it's like a chess game, they look for your mistakes and play proper shots, I'm the opposite - I hate the arrogant young batsmen brought up on a diet of T/20 cricket treating the game like a net session, but having reflected on the year gone by I may have a plan next time round, but I'll still need blokes that are willing to run a few yards and pull off catches.
 
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