Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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chippyben said:
I practiced a few times this week working hard on the stuff we'd gone through in the lesson. After an hour or so it really clicked and I was turning the ball twice as far as I have ever turned it!!! It was extrodinary really the difference. The thing is I was so close to doing it myself and it was so obvious looking on it now but it just needed someone to point it out.
Basically from Philpotts exercises of
1) Flicking the ball from right to left across the body and
2) Holding the ball out in front and flicking it back to the chest
my understanding was that exercise 1 was practicing the wrist action and release (out of the back of the hand) for, depending on where the hand was facing at release for the wrong un, top spinner and leg break with top spin.(i.e seam pointing towards 2nd slip). Exercise 2 being for the square or Hard spun Leg break and for backspinning deliveries. This exercise pushes the ball more out of the front of the hand, more between the 2nd and and 3rd(spinning finger)or so it feels. More work is done with the fingers as the wrist doesn't rotate as much as in exercise 2.

Now where I was going wrong is that exercise 1 is for the wrong un and topspinner and not the top spinning leg break as I had thought. Exercise 2 is for the topspinning legbreak all the way round to the the backspinner. That combined with a lower arm allows a bigger flick and getting around the side of the ball when doing the wrist action from exercise 2.
I had been using the front of the hand flick from exercise 2 for the square hard spun leg break with good results already but had been persisting with exercise 1's wrist action for the topspinning leg break.
Hopefully that makes some sense. Its an individual thing really but that seems to be the way that works for me and it was money well spent on the lesson.
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Yeah makes total sense - I think when you read the book, you get the sense that (1) is for the leg break and that alone, but once the penny drops with regards the importance of wrist presentation, you then realise that (1) is more to do with the top-spinner, I think the way the book is written, there's an assumption that if you do that exercise you're going to naturally and more likely going to be bowling leg breaks albeit small ones. The book seems to be directed at youths rather than adults and I've noticed that youths seems to naturally be able to bowl leg breaks without giving it a great deal of thought unlike blokes that are a little older and possibly more obsessive/interested in the technicalities. Thinking about it too much can I reckon get in the way of a naturally evolved leg break action. That drill I reckon is a little confusing especially if you're very attentive to detail and getting things right like I am. The backward in - flick (2) is the key drill and its one that not many people know about and/or can get their heads around.
 
i still dont see it though. the side to side flick is how i present a square leg break. but then im front-on at release. whereas side-on would tend to present that same ball with more overspin. maybe theres something in that. but the back flick is an over compensation i think. my stock ball at the moment is backspun, for no reason other than i am overpitching too much and the back spinning action means that the ball is less flighted and i hit my length more consistently. but if i use the hand-to-hand action in my actual bowling, the result would be mostly side spin. its also a lot more wristy, and you can generate much bigger revs that way. spinning the ball back into yourself is more about the fingers and ultimately that will net you less spin.

however, if youre trying to specifically strengthen the fingers, or introduce them more into the action, then its worthwhile. in the many hours i used to spin the ball between my hands i would go all around the loop, and use the flipper action as well at all angles of wrist. its just a good general workout. lately i havent been doing this anywhere near as much, and i think it started to show in my bowling. im trying to get a few hours a week in again now.
 
To some extent I think you're right, I reckon we have an idea of what is we're doing when we bowl, but the reality differs to the perception. I think the advice that's in the book sets you on a voyage of discovery, but gives you a good basic template with which to start out with and then you work through it from there. I reckon Philpotts got it worked out that if you say to most people spin it from hand to hand as in (1) and then convert that to a bowling action, he knows that most peoples arms are going to come over with the plam of the hand facing the bat and therefore as you do produce a big angled leg break?
 
Jim2109 said:
i still dont see it though. the side to side flick is how i present a square leg break. but then im front-on at release. whereas side-on would tend to present that same ball with more overspin.
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I was trying the above this week. I tend to be very side on so the spinning towards me ends up as the topspinning legbreak. When i tried to release the ball later when I had rotated more, I was more front on and it had more side spin. The above is obvious as well, when in a stanstill position hold the arm up as if you are going to bowl. When side on the seam points to the keeper or at most to first slip, but when moving to front on the seam points more to 3rd slip/gully/point region.

This point has been haunting me for the last year or so, and revolves around when the optimal release of the ball should occur: just before rotation, just on starting to rotate or later on?

I also noted that the googly following the above advice is easier to bowl from a very side on position. Once you are front on I find my shoulder/wrist cannot do the trick, coupled with the fact of my extreme round arm action makes the googly nigh to impossible to bowl it from side on.
 
Jim2109 said:
i still dont see it though. the side to side flick is how i present a square leg break. but then im front-on at release. whereas side-on would tend to present that same ball with more overspin. maybe theres something in that. but the back flick is an over compensation i think. my stock ball at the moment is backspun, for no reason other than i am overpitching too much and the back spinning action means that the ball is less flighted and i hit my length more consistently. but if i use the hand-to-hand action in my actual bowling, the result would be mostly side spin. its also a lot more wristy, and you can generate much bigger revs that way. spinning the ball back into yourself is more about the fingers and ultimately that will net you less spin.

however, if youre trying to specifically strengthen the fingers, or introduce them more into the action, then its worthwhile. in the many hours i used to spin the ball between my hands i would go all around the loop, and use the flipper action as well at all angles of wrist. its just a good general workout. lately i havent been doing this anywhere near as much, and i think it started to show in my bowling. im trying to get a few hours a week in again now.
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I reckon you have hit the nail on the head there Jim. Being front on you are already further around with your arm and so exercise 1 in my post allows you to get a top spinning leg break whereas me being side on doesn't allow this to happen.
The benefit for you as you say is exercise 1 puts a few more revs on the ball so your topspinning leg break gets more dip and turn but the downside is a low arm and front on would make it extremely difficult to bowl a wrong-un. Again though you might be able to get a backspinning wrong un going better with your action.
Its all an individual thing though isn't it. Like Dave says the advice is there but you have to go on your own "voyage of discovery."
I find I can get just as many revs with exercise 2 but thats just me. I am literally getting twice the amount of turn I was getting before with the exercise 2 leg break which is astonishing to me and probably one of the biggest breakthroughs Ive made so far. The only downside is I have to work harder on accuracy as its harder to control.
 
sadspinner said:
I was trying the above this week. I tend to be very side on so the spinning towards me ends up as the topspinning legbreak. When i tried to release the ball later when I had rotated more, I was more front on and it had more side spin. The above is obvious as well, when in a stanstill position hold the arm up as if you are going to bowl. When side on the seam points to the keeper or at most to first slip, but when moving to front on the seam points more to 3rd slip/gully/point region.

This point has been haunting me for the last year or so, and revolves around when the optimal release of the ball should occur: just before rotation, just on starting to rotate or later on?

I also noted that the googly following the above advice is easier to bowl from a very side on position. Once you are front on I find my shoulder/wrist cannot do the trick, coupled with the fact of my extreme round arm action makes the googly nigh to impossible to bowl it from side on.
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My thinking is you want to be side on at release but I'm really only going off Page 60 in Philpotts book and other advice Ive been given. Having said that its physically impossible to be side on at the point of release and so it having one shoulder rotate over the other so there has to be some opening up of the body. After just standing in front of the mirror trying to work it out for 15mins Im more confused than ever.
I think basically he is trying to say though stay side on for as long as possible and follow through straight towards the batsman and not open up early or turn left off the pitch straight away in the follw through.
Thats just my interpretation and musings though.
When I bowl from a standing start I get more side spin but when a run up is involved it gets more towards topspin just to add to the confusion.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Yeah makes total sense - I think when you read the book, you get the sense that (1) is for the leg break and that alone, but once the penny drops with regards the importance of wrist presentation, you then realise that (1) is more to do with the top-spinner, I think the way the book is written, there's an assumption that if you do that exercise you're going to naturally and more likely going to be bowling leg breaks albeit small ones. The book seems to be directed at youths rather than adults and I've noticed that youths seems to naturally be able to bowl leg breaks without giving it a great deal of thought unlike blokes that are a little older and possibly more obsessive/interested in the technicalities. Thinking about it too much can I reckon get in the way of a naturally evolved leg break action. That drill I reckon is a little confusing especially if you're very attentive to detail and getting things right like I am. The backward in - flick (2) is the key drill and its one that not many people know about and/or can get their heads around.
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I concentrated too much on the 1st drill to the detriment of the 2nd and now have to train myself more on the second drill as my wrist and relaese often reverts to the 1st drill when I bowl. I reckon kids having more flexible wrists naturally get a leg break with the first drill sounds right too. You have to understand the wrist action but there is a fine line between that and overthinking it isnt there and Ive been guilty of that too.
 
Coaching kids trying to bowl Wrist Spin strikes me as being extremely difficult, there are so many technical aspects to it that kids these days with their concentration spans of seconds and expectation of results in seconds and minutes at worst (Computer and TV induced expectations), to start bombarding them with these technicalities would put them off I'm sure. But as an adult wanting to push your bowling on, or perhaps as a very concientious teenager, reading Phipotts book can get you bogged down in all sorts of technical details. The one thing that does weave its way all through the book is the sense that if you are getting the ball to turn using some idiosyncratic method and it works well, then if it's not causing you any physical damage and you're taking wickets then maybe leave it as it is and don't worry about the details in the book.
Kids with a natural action leg break, that have never seen either of the drills would probably benefit from (1) in order to produce the Top Spinner and (2) to get their Leg Break turning more. To be honest drill (2) as a bowling action in full 'Explosive' mode I find a very difficult release because of the timing and about 2-3 other issues and it's something I worked with on and off all last season, but still haven't transferred to bowling in a match preferring instead to stick with my rollers rather than Philpott-esque big flicks (2). The ultimate goal is to be able to bowl with a big flick and really get the ball spinning, but without the accuracy and speed I just feel it needs to be worked with for a another season or two before I bring it to the game. Unfortunately for me, time is running out and at 50 now - I'm feeling the physical impact of intensive practice, so I may never get there, but, I'll keep trying with the knowledge that 'The Grum' was still in his backyard bowling into his 70's and 80's!!!! But for sure - anyone that thinks that they can pick up a ball and bowl wrist spin well in a season or two is either an natural genius with the potential to be the next Warne or they're really niave.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Coaching kids trying to bowl Wrist Spin strikes me as being extremely difficult - anyone that thinks that they can pick up a ball and bowl wrist spin well in a season or two is either an natural genius with the potential to be the next Warne or they're really niave.
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Looking at the video Sadspinner linked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9WxpE94TLQ&NR=1
this young man doing extremely well for his age. His action looks smooth and will only get stronger with age and experience. I like the way he attacks the right areas and is getting good turn. I'm sure he's only been practising for one or two seasons unless he was bowling in his nappies
smile.png

I'm no expert but he could go all the way if maintains his enthusiasm...
 
No you're right and I think I said it earlier somewhere - lots of kids can pick up a ball and produce a leg break when they're young and they toss it up nice and loopy with some turn and they pick up wickets. I think the issue comes about when they get a bit older and their expectations change -

1. Having seen Warne and others bowling variations they're exicited by the prospect of being able to bowl the variations and that's where the work starts, as many of the variations require practice and focus.
2. Once they start competing - they're going to come across situations where they're hit for fours and sixes and prove to be expensive - and then start getting the treatment from the captain (less overs than the other bowlers).
3. The physical thing where youths have growth spurts and this affects their bowling.
4. They watch Steve Smith on the tele and hear what the commentators are saying and the rest of the cricket world about wrist spin in the wake of Warne.

If you're coaching you've somehow got to balance all these things up and still sell Wrist Spin as being something to stick with, I still maintain that you've got your work cut out.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
...
If you're coaching you've somehow got to balance all these things up and still sell Wrist Spin as being something to stick with, I still maintain that you've got your work cut out.
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I think the trick is not to try and 'sell' it along those lines Dave. Obviously patience and a pretty decent work ethic are helpful traits in any potential bowler but so are 'individuality' (doing something others can't/won't do) and being the 'trickster' (lets face it some kids just love to make others look stupid and never is there more opportunity on a cricket pitch than with a well bowled leg break).

I would say at youth level you dont need to have 'all' the variations, a stock leg break and one that does a bit more/less is more than enough if you have control over your line, length and flight. Fully accept your point about a supportive captain, but at youth level I would include coach and parents in that bracket - if everyone is happy with the role the spinner is there to play then hopefully they can continue with their development. Personally the biggest bug bear for me is when lads start to get old enough to be included in adult cricket and suddenly get all and sundry giving 'advice' which often turns their heads and leads to all sorts of bad habits
 
TonyM said:
Personally the biggest bug bear for me is when lads start to get old enough to be included in adult cricket and suddenly get all and sundry giving 'advice' which often turns their heads and leads to all sorts of bad habits
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this is a massive point. some of the "advice" you get as a leg spinner is horrendous. every captain ive bowled for has at some point said "look, just dont spin so hard and focus on your accuracy". understandable in situations where ive been bowling wayward balls, but hugely harmful to a developing leg spinner. fortunately for me im old enough and stubborn enough to know when advice is stupid. and 99% of the time if a captain says that to me it winds me up so much that i rip the next ball even harder, and pull a decent one out of the bag lol. none of them have intended it as reverse psychology yet though.

ive had probably a dozen different people tell me to get my arm higher because it will be more accurate. the worse advice ive ever been given by someone at practice was to get myself side on. its not so much bad advice, but just misguided because my action isnt side on, and trying to make it that way would be ridiculous, and probably cause me no end of injuries and frustration.

one of the youth coaches at my old club did give me some very solid advice at the time regarding hip alignment when he saw me struggling in the nets one day. at the time it didnt make sense, i wasnt far enough along in my understanding of my own action to realise what he was saying. but a year down the line that advice came back around and has become a critical part of the changes in my action. so there is some good advice out there as well. but mostly id say its bad! not just for leg spin either, pretty much everything lol.
 
Jim2109 said:
this is a massive point. some of the "advice" you get as a leg spinner is horrendous. every captain ive bowled for has at some point said "look, just dont spin so hard and focus on your accuracy". understandable in situations where ive been bowling wayward balls, but hugely harmful to a developing leg spinner. fortunately for me im old enough and stubborn enough to know when advice is stupid. and 99% of the time if a captain says that to me it winds me up so much that i rip the next ball even harder, and pull a decent one out of the bag lol. none of them have intended it as reverse psychology yet though.

ive had probably a dozen different people tell me to get my arm higher because it will be more accurate. the worse advice ive ever been given by someone at practice was to get myself side on. its not so much bad advice, but just misguided because my action isnt side on, and trying to make it that way would be ridiculous, and probably cause me no end of injuries and frustration.

one of the youth coaches at my old club did give me some very solid advice at the time regarding hip alignment when he saw me struggling in the nets one day. at the time it didnt make sense, i wasnt far enough along in my understanding of my own action to realise what he was saying. but a year down the line that advice came back around and has become a critical part of the changes in my action. so there is some good advice out there as well. but mostly id say its bad! not just for leg spin either, pretty much everything lol.
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I think that's what Philpott says - you have to filter out the well-meaning nonsense advice from the sage observation!
 
couple of things i've spotted on cricinfo this evening, firstly an interview with Stuey MacGill:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/497005.html

Always interesting to hear from him, even if there's not much of interest in there. Apart from further muddying of the waters of the slider/zooter debate that is; he says that he got Kallis as his first international wicket with his 'first variation' and does not differentiate between the two. Not that that means anything, just another example of no one being able to make a clear definition of what they're bowling as usual!

And also there is this intriguing picture I found attached to an article about Ashwin and Chawla being selected for the world cup:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-cricket-world-cup-2011/content/current/story/497102.html

look at the position of the seam, what has he bowled here I wonder?? a crap leg break? a flying saucer?? a slider?? who knows! compare that with the lovely seam position of the ball Macgill bowls in the picture with his article.
 
Did not know where to fit this, but jim and dave for say a canon/samsung camcorder, what should i look for.Do I need slow motion or high frame per second filming to film my daughter in tennis/tae-kwondoo/swimming(might be a good excuse to use for myself). Or do you use some software to slow the film down. Do not get too technical as I am hopeless at IT, so your explanation has to be painfully simple.
Any model of samsung/canon fit the bill above. Thanks in advance.
 
its better if youve got a camcorder with a high frame rate option if you want super slow motion footage. the standard frame rate is about 30 frames per second, so you can usually slow that down to 1/4 speed using software without it noticeably losing quality on a YouTube sized video. Any decent quality HD camera would suit your purpose for that.

If you want the super slow motion stuff then you'll need a camera with a slow motion facility. my Sony can do 120 frames per second, but then plays it back at 1/4 speed. so you essentially get the same quality as you would for a normal speed camera, but in 1/4 speed slow motion. in software I can then slow this down to 1/16 speed without any major loss of quality. most of my videos before I took them all off YouTube would show the original 1/4 speed, followed by a 1/16 speed super slow-mo shot.

for what you want I reckon just a decent HD camcorder will be sufficient. the software I use to edit my videos is Sony Vegas Movie Studio 9, think it cost about £30-40 and it does everything I need. you can use free software though depending on the file format. i believe Dave does all his using free software, but the Sony HD file format wasnt compatible with anything that did what I wanted, so i just bought their own software to do it properly.
 
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