Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dave - ive had a look at the slow motion hand-to-hand videos that i took at yours. the quality is awful, they are so dark, but using the white ball means i can still clearly make out the tape on the ball!!

from looking at the frame-by-frame you put about 900rpm on the ball.

my video was 1200rpm, which is about the same as the maximum ive measured in the past from hand-to-hand (ive measured 1500rpm in actual bowling). and i dont reckon that was as good as i could have got it, so i think im still gradually increasing my revs all the time.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dave - ive had a look at the slow motion hand-to-hand videos that i took at yours. the quality is awful, they are so dark, but using the white ball means i can still clearly make out the tape on the ball!!

from looking at the frame-by-frame you put about 900rpm on the ball.

my video was 1200rpm, which is about the same as the maximum ive measured in the past from hand-to-hand (ive measured 1500rpm in actual bowling). and i dont reckon that was as good as i could have got it, so i think im still gradually increasing my revs all the time.

Yeah I didn't think it was going to be increadibly fast.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah I didn't think it was going to be increadibly fast.

its not that slow though, i think you could improve it quite a bit by holding the ball further out on the ends of your fingers.

you were saying about the drift i was getting, i think the only difference between my bowling and yours is the extra revs and a bit more pace. i bowl slightly faster and flatter, so the ball has more chance to drift. thats basically the only difference, so if nothing else i think its just proof that drift isnt a magical phenomenom like swing bowling where it happens seemingly at random. if you bowl fast enough with enough revs then the ball will drift, simple as that.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I think the key is those things combined with the fact that you get the ball leaving the hand with the seam rotating 90 degrees or thereabouts degrees to its direction of flight.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i watched the T20 final tonight, England vs Australia. England won it comfortably, but i think Michael Clarke made a massive mistake to hand it to us halfway through the innings. Steve Smith bowled his first over, with Pietersen and Kieswetter in the middle. bearing in mind that Pietersen is one of the best players of leg spin in the world, and Kieswetter is super aggressive, he did well to only go for 7 runs. Pietersen was getting down the pitch and looking to free his arms up, as was Kieswetter. and i thought he looked like he might threaten them both.

but after that first over Michael Clarke took him out of the attack and went to Shane Watson i think, with Mitchell Johnson at the other end. Watson got absolutely creamed, and then it took about 4 or 5 more overs of seamers getting smashed before Smith got another go. by that point England had gone from being inline with the required rate, to well above it. Smith came back on and got Pietersen caught in the deep first ball!

i reckon he was always looking to set Pietersen up, and i think he would have got him regardless of timing, so had Clarke kept him on i think Australia might have taken the advantage. Pietersen hadnt scored too many runs at that point, and England hadnt gained momentum. Clarke just looked completely clueless as captain the whole way through though. and by the time Smith got another go the game was well beyond Australia. the wicket of Pietersen unsteadied things, Kieswetter went next over to Johnson, and England looked shaky for an over or 2 before Morgan and Collingwood got going. had that moment come those 4 or 5 overs earlier England would have really struggled with nerves.

yet another example of misguided captains shying away from leg spin when they find themselves in a squeeze, even though leg spin was exactly what was required - they needed wickets!!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I think the key is those things combined with the fact that you get the ball leaving the hand with the seam rotating 90 degrees or thereabouts degrees to its direction of flight.

i dont know that the seam matters massively. the magnus effect occurs regardless of the seam, it applies to any ball that rotates. so simply having the ball rotating is enough. the seam may disturb the air a bit more and increase the effect, but it should happen with a scrambled ball as well.

primarily i bowl with overspin as well, and most of the balls that drifted were overspun. i maybe bowled 2 or 3 square leg breaks in our entire session. mostly i was bowling overspun leg breaks, and maybe 5 or 6 of each of the variations - top spinner, square leg break, big backspun leg break, zooter, and a couple of sliders.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i dont know that the seam matters massively. the magnus effect occurs regardless of the seam, it applies to any ball that rotates. so simply having the ball rotating is enough. the seam may disturb the air a bit more and increase the effect, but it should happen with a scrambled ball as well.

primarily i bowl with overspin as well, and most of the balls that drifted were overspun. i maybe bowled 2 or 3 square leg breaks in our entire session. mostly i was bowling overspun leg breaks, and maybe 5 or 6 of each of the variations - top spinner, square leg break, big backspun leg break, zooter, and a couple of sliders.

Yes seam doesn't matter, but the direction of rotation does. Maximum magnus effect is caused when the axis of rotation is parallel to the wind direction. So when the wind isnt blowing directly into your bowling, you might produce greater drift with a certain degree of overspin on the ball

 

[SteveyD]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

changing direction towards my own personal needs (aka HIJACK) (or offshoot if you will)

I've been thinking in depth about my bowling, and compared to the diagrams I find that my 4th finger is far futher round than mosto ther people, and I never realised that the seam doesn't need to rest in the knuckles, so i'm going to have a few hours practise on that tomorrow see if it makes any difference. Also i tend to have my thumb touching as opposed to loose , woud this make much difference?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I've gone through phases of having the ball higher in the fingers with the ring finger very securely on the seam to the current grip which is increadibly loose, but with the ring finger along the seam and the ball cupped deep within the palm.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yes seam doesn't matter, but the direction of rotation does. Maximum magnus effect is caused when the axis of rotation is parallel to the wind direction. So when the wind isnt blowing directly into your bowling, you might produce greater drift with a certain degree of overspin on the ball

For the sake of avoiding confusion, I have to say I think that's wrong. If the axis of rotation (i.e. the axis around which the ball spins) is parallel to the direction of travel there will be NO effect. A leg-break drifts because as it dips towards the ground the angle between the axis of rotation and the direction of travel increases. Sadly very few cricket textbooks seem to be written by people who properly understand classical physics, let alone fluid dynamics, but I've attempted to explain how the Magnus effect works here

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

For the sake of avoiding confusion, I have to say I think that's wrong. If the axis of rotation (i.e. the axis around which the ball spins) is parallel to the direction of travel there will be NO effect. A leg-break drifts because as it dips towards the ground the angle between the axis of rotation and the direction of travel increases. Sadly very few cricket textbooks seem to be written by people who properly understand classical physics, let alone fluid dynamics, but I've attempted to explain how the Magnus effect works here

That makes sense. I think. Parallel must mean a cross breeze? Well if the wind blows from the left (cover) strong enough you can drift a legbreak several feet but if it comes from the right (mid wicket) it can blow a lot of drift off the ball. You know you are spinning ok when you can bend it against a strong breeze.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I've got the opportunity to ask first class player questions via David Hinchcliffe about wrist spin so I've put these forward -

This one more than any of the following - How many hours a day or week would a county/national level spinner spend bowling?



How knowledgable are they on the variations and their history and the legacy of people like Philpott and Grimmett?



Would they as part of their training be introduced to the obscure variations and do the coaches/training staff have the knowledge of the obscure variations?



On a more prosaic approach ask him if he has any accuracy drills and how important he feels accuracy is - Jenner in his BBC videos indicates a fairly big area to bowl into, whereas Philpott and Grimmett talk about accuracy being essential and talk in terms of being able to hit a hankie - Grimmett saying he would only end his practice sessions having hit the hankie 5 times in succession.



Ask also which of the variations best accompanies the Leg Break if your were to only use one variation.



Ask him if he advocates an off-stump line of attack in preference to the Leg Stump line of attack - I personally bowl at the off-stump turning it away from the edge of the bat.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I've got the opportunity to ask first class player questions via David Hinchcliffe about wrist spin so I've put these forward -

This one more than any of the following - How many hours a day or week would a county/national level spinner spend bowling?



How knowledgable are they on the variations and their history and the legacy of people like Philpott and Grimmett?



Would they as part of their training be introduced to the obscure variations and do the coaches/training staff have the knowledge of the obscure variations?



On a more prosaic approach ask him if he has any accuracy drills and how important he feels accuracy is - Jenner in his BBC videos indicates a fairly big area to bowl into, whereas Philpott and Grimmett talk about accuracy being essential and talk in terms of being able to hit a hankie - Grimmett saying he would only end his practice sessions having hit the hankie 5 times in succession.



Ask also which of the variations best accompanies the Leg Break if your were to only use one variation.



Ask him if he advocates an off-stump line of attack in preference to the Leg Stump line of attack - I personally bowl at the off-stump turning it away from the edge of the bat.

i have a feeling those questions are going to be answered wildly differently depending on who is being asked. as you say, Jenner, probably the current leading authority on leg spin, has a very different approach to Grimmett and Philpott. i think Shane Warne would probably advocate similar methods to Jenner, although he had phenomenal accuracy and control, but still didnt mind putting the ball in unusual places.

it will be interesting to hear the responses of professional coaches and players alike though. call me cynical, but im expecting some of the answers to be embarrasingly uninformed.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i got a bowl tonight for my midweek pub league team. final figures were 3-0-26-2, so fairly expensive, but a little harsh i felt. i bowled better than the figures, but a couple of lucky sixes spoiled them.

i came on with about 8 overs left (they batted first), and they had 2 well set batsmen at the crease. one of them was their number 3, and id say their best player, the other ended up their highest scorer. first over i managed to only bowl 1 wide, and went for 6 runs. i bowled primarily outside leg stump and was turning it back in nicely, and they struggled to score runs off it. the captain wouldnt let me change my field, even though it was nothing like what i wanted, and it just kept gifting them singles which really annoys me. id have probably had all the singles covered off if id got my own way, and that might have forced mistakes. but oh well.

second over i had control of my line more, so i was pitching it well up on middle and leg stump lines because outside leg wasnt really threatening a wicket. first ball was a perfectly good delivery, but the number 3 batsman smacked it for 6. basically just guessing where it would end up and swinging, it could just as easily have got him out. i was a little bit surprised that he got a 6, but the boundaries are ridiculously short in this league, and he just hit it over deep square leg. i stood their astounded for a few seconds, playing it up a bit to give him some false security.

so then i followed my own advice - if a batsman is looking to attack then dont defend, pitch it up where he thinks he wants it, and let him have a go! next ball dot, then he went after me through mid wicket and got caught on the boundary (it would have gone for 6 if not caught). aggressive batsmen rarely last long.

i then bowled dot, 1, 1 and only went for 8 off the over, despite a 6 off the first ball of it. so that wasnt too shabby.

then into my 3rd and final over, the new batsman who had come in fancied himself as a big hitter. i went for 2 runs off the new bat, then a single, then a wide, then another single to put him back on strike. i decided to go around the wicket just to confuse him a bit as he looked fairly confident and pitched one up on middle stump and he hit it for 6, i cant remember where though, mid wicket maybe. so i came back over the wicket straight away, then sure enough, next ball he went after it again and got caught at long off. then i think they got another single off my last ball. one of my team mates said he reckoned id have got him if id just stayed over the wicket, and probably not gone for the 6. but i wanted to see what he was like when it was bowled at his legs (the answer was not bad), and it ended up just giving him false confidence.

the wicket keeper wanted me to have another over, he was well impressed. the ball was drifting and turning a lot, and i only really bowled 2 bad balls (aside from the wides). one was a long hop that pretty much rolled along the floor and only went for 1. the other was a full toss attempted zooter that went for 1 to square leg.

ive taken 7 wickets now in 14 overs this season. ive got an average of 11.00 and a strike rate of 12.00. so pretty good figures so far, id like to take a few more wickets really. but its always tough when you only get 2 or 3 over spells in T20. and ive only played the one 40+ over match.

ive got a game on Sunday though for presumably my Sunday 2nd XI club side. and even then, only because someone has pulled out!! i need a 5 wicket haul to make a few people choke on their beers, and then lets seem them ignore me at selection. hopefully il get 5 or 6 overs minimum, although that is usually dependant on how well youre going. i need early wickets to buy extra overs.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

That's pretty good I'd be happy with a wicket every 13 runs, just a case of maintaining that strike rate - how does it tally up with your other games?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

That's pretty good I'd be happy with a wicket every 13 runs, just a case of maintaining that strike rate - how does it tally up with your other games?

its the most expensive ive been this season in a game, but its T20 on pitches with 30 yard boundaries! you could literally edge a ball for 6 if any of the bowlers could get up over the 75mph mark. the fastest bowler ive seen, who plays for my side, is only probably about 70mph though. 80% of the time batsmen cant even get bat on ball against him.

also my figures would be miles better if i was allowed to set my own field. id completely dry up the singles, and then the added pressure would result in more mistakes. so probably more wickets as well.

my overall average is 11.00, and my overall strike rate is 12.00. ive taken 2 wickets in all my matches apart from 1, in which i only took 1 wicket. and given that all bar one have been T20 and ive only ever had 2 or 3 overs, im taking the wickets early doors without any chance to find rhythm or formulate plans.

im hoping at the weekend il get a proper go, because i need 5+ overs minimum to really have time to get going. the only way that will happen though is with an early wicket, but then based on my T20 games ive taken early wickets every time.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

its the most expensive ive been this season in a game, but its T20 on pitches with 30 yard boundaries! you could literally edge a ball for 6 if any of the bowlers could get up over the 75mph mark. the fastest bowler ive seen, who plays for my side, is only probably about 70mph though. 80% of the time batsmen cant even get bat on ball against him.

also my figures would be miles better if i was allowed to set my own field. id completely dry up the singles, and then the added pressure would result in more mistakes. so probably more wickets as well.

my overall average is 11.00, and my overall strike rate is 12.00. ive taken 2 wickets in all my matches apart from 1, in which i only took 1 wicket. and given that all bar one have been T20 and ive only ever had 2 or 3 overs, im taking the wickets early doors without any chance to find rhythm or formulate plans.

im hoping at the weekend il get a proper go, because i need 5+ overs minimum to really have time to get going. the only way that will happen though is with an early wicket, but then based on my T20 games ive taken early wickets every time.

Well you would have to say that those figures are very good. Who said t20 would not suit spinners?

I was checking out Swann and Smiths figures for the T20 world cup and they are almost identical. Swann was slightly cheaper but smith had a tiny edge on wickets/strike. Both are spinners though and both ranked high in the final averages.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Whoa check this out - Top-Spinner kept this a bit quiet or did I miss it being promoted first time round - MCC Coaching Manual 1952 Leg Spin Section pictures by TopSpinCricket - Photobucket if you can't link it from there - check it out in his blog - The Top-Spinner: Rediscovery & Regrets; A Cricketing Legacy it's at the end there's a very discreet link.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Whoa check this out - Top-Spinner kept this a bit quiet or did I miss it being promoted first time round - MCC Coaching Manual 1952 Leg Spin Section pictures by TopSpinCricket - Photobucket if you can't link it from there - check it out in his blog - The Top-Spinner: Rediscovery & Regrets; A Cricketing Legacy it's at the end there's a very discreet link.

Hope no-one from cheltenham grammar school sees the stamp under maileys photo- they might want the book back! Great action shot of Grimmett as well.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Hope no-one from cheltenham grammar school sees the stamp under maileys photo- they might want the book back! Great action shot of Grimmett as well.

There's some interesting stuff in there regarding bowling straight initially just to learn the basics and there's also the conundrum of bowling one or the other (Off or Leg-spin) and this says you have to make a choice. See page 48. It's a good find and I've downloaded it for my own reference.