Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah, I decided pretty early that it was going to have to be a long-term project! Let me just check with you old pros that I've got the theory of the delivery right (clearly, the execution will obviously take lots of practise...)

As I understand it the idea is to have just enough of a run-up to develop a nice rhythm and some forward momentum, then I aim my left (non-bowling) elbow at the target, turn my right arm round turning my wrist in towards me as it passes my waist and as I swing my arm round I'm aiming to generate enough centrifugal force to push the ball onto my fingers as much as possible at the point I rotate my wrist, until finally my third finger rotates around the ball, meaning in effect the ball comes out of the side of my hand facing away from my head, hopefully looping up into the air with plenty of revs! Does that sound about right?

Yeah not too much of a run up 8 steps a la' Warne is good, watch clips of him and you'll see how towards the end he then 'explodes' through the crease with the last 2 - 3 steps. The best video to have a look at and learn this is this one - YouTube - David Freedman legspin coaching video there's some really useful stuff in this clip. He talks about the leading arm, bowling side-on and the rotation of the shoulders. With regards the ball it should come out of the front of the hand with the palm facing the batsman.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

plus drift comes into play big time with added pace, it accentuates the movement in flight.

Yeah, it's a fact that aerodynamic forces are proportional to the square of the speed, so increasing speed from 40 to 50 mph will increase the sideways force on the ball by much more than just the additional 25% increase in speed - it's actually a 56% increase in force. (I did aeronautical engineering at uni...)

Of course, if added pace means you're sacrificing revs you won't get the full effect, but if you can increase the pace an keep the same revs it's clear there's lots more drift to be had.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah not too much of a run up 8 steps a la' Warne is good, watch clips of him and you'll see how towards the end he then 'explodes' through the crease with the last 2 - 3 steps. The best video to have a look at and learn this is this one - YouTube - David Freedman legspin coaching video there's some really useful stuff in this clip. He talks about the leading arm, bowling side-on and the rotation of the shoulders. With regards the ball it should come out of the front of the hand with the palm facing the batsman.

From Terry Jenner on Warne:

Warne had eight steps in his approach but walked the last three and had lovely rhythm. People said only Warne was strong enough to bowl that way. I don't think so, because as long as you bowl at your natural pace it is fine. If you are looking for a role model why would you not look at the best in the world?

Warne had the five basics of spin: he was side-on; to get side-on, your back foot needs to be parallel to the crease and Warne's was; his front arm started weakly but by the time of release it grew very powerful; he drove his shoulders up and over when he released the ball; and completed his action by rotating 180 degrees. Those basics came naturally to him and were the key to him walking up to the crease and jumping to bowl.

Not bad things to aim for!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

much improved session this evening. i turned up to see the group before us using the "spare" net at the end for a bowling machine! i hoped it would disappear before our session, but no such luck. so that threw out my plans to bowl in an empty net by myself, gutted!

so i got myself prepared for another evening of awful bowling. however i was paying a lot more attention to what i was doing, and trying to maintain the same rhythm on every delivery. i could have done a LOT better, i still wasnt anywhere near focussed enough. but it went better than previous weeks.

the clubs premier leg spinner was there tonight, he bowls really flat but gives it a good rip and gets sharp turn and bounce. hes also got a decent wrong'un. he got me out in a 1's vs 2's match last season, although it was stumped marching down the wicket. id hit him for some good runs prior to that. but hes a good bowler. so that gave me a benchmark and some competition and i think it helped. he bowled well, he clean bowled a leftie with a lovely wrong'un that he totally didnt pick.

as for my own bowling - i tried slowing it down, it didnt much help. i tried going back to my old technique, and that didnt much help. then i found a break through in my hand position prior to release. ive altered it, but going back to my old method completely changed everything. i was bowling as quick as ive ever bowled, but still getting the spin, as well as improved accuracy and consistency!

my length was fairly solid all night. apart from the odd drag down. but i was flighting it better. my line was erratic at times, but more often than not id land it somewhere close to my intended spot. that didnt stop me getting smashed around sometimes though.

i bowled to 3 lefties, we had left handers in our lane for literally the first 30-40 mins. not a bad thing i suppose as its good practice. one guy started really sheepishly, i had him caught probably every 4th-6th ball. the longer he was there the more he had adjusted to me, and then he really went after me. anything outside off stump got dispatched, but i reckon i was still getting him caught at least once an over. in a real match theres no way he would have taken control of me that easily, the first one to go close to a fielder would have scared him back into the defensive shots he started out with. the next leftie in was always struggling, i was getting good sharp turn on a nice full length. the only ones he hit were bad balls, anything that came out well was either defended or a wicket opportunity. i should have had him caught myself, but i wasnt on my toes enough!

then at the end i really found my old form. i was bowling the best ive ever bowled to an adult batsman (ive bowled better at kids, and ive bowled better by myself, but never in a spell to an adult). i was getting edges, complete misses past the edge by several inches lol, the ball was drifting, i reckon i was up around 50-55mph and really ripping it. i was thinking to myself "tonight has gone pretty well, but i REALLY want to bowl someone out before i leave". about 3 balls later i bowled one at middle stump, very quick, it drifted huge, pitched on that perfect length where the batsman has no idea what to do about 3" outside leg stump, he took a stride forwards to it and tried to play me straight, and it turned back through the gate and took middle stump. an absolute corker, maybe the best "wicket" ive ever taken.

so im pretty happy now. nowhere near 100%, probably not even at 70% yet, but huge improvements on the past 2 sessions, improvements on last season, and easily a wicket every 2-3 overs on average through the evening, mostly caught. i got the other leg spinner caught at slip with a nice delivery which is always a bonus, although he played some cracking shots off me, as id expect (id expect to do the same back).

i really need to get into the outdoor nets on my own sometime this week though. i reckon if i can sort out the issues in my action then there is a massive improvement to be had. and in theory based on what i achieved tonight theres no reason why i shouldnt be bowling at this faster pace with turn similar to what i was getting with my old slower pace, probably even more. plus drift comes into play big time with added pace, it accentuates the movement in flight.

if i can still generate turn at this faster pace, and find consistency and accuracy 80%+ of the time, then i should have a field day come the start of the season. i made a very clear observation against one batsman where i was bowling slower for the first probably 3 balls at him and they were turning, but he was comfortable. then i bowled a really fast one (this was when my technique clicked into place a bit) at leg stump that turned on a decent length (maybe a touch short) and had him absolutely done. it hit him in the pad and was going well past off stump with the turn. everyone acknowledged the delivery as a cracker. but it was as good a comparison as you could possibly get for what that extra pace does to even a good club batsman. some of them can deal with turn and bounce, and you have to rely on a very full length and deception in flight to beat them. with the added pace, plus turn and movement in flight, theyre just screwed. its just a matter of time until one gets them out. so im really excited about the prospects.

i also think my height is to my advantage in some ways when it comes to pace. it has been commented before that im pretty tall for a leg spinner at 6'2", and also that the height can be quite unnatural. but ive got long legs and long arms. so ive got more leverage, and also i can flight the ball less and still get it above the batsmans eyeline. which allows me to put extra pace on the ball without compromising elsewhere. my flight tonight was pretty good, not too loopy but definitely not flat.

I knew your next session would be a good one. Your expectations had taken a dive after last week and this week you find you can bowl pretty good after all. You just need some long and frequent bowling practise after the off season.

 

[Shahbaz]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I'm currently just getting back into cricket, it seems last time I didn't really seem to know what I was doing (or, at least, much related to technique), and just lost interest in continuing. I suppose this could also relate to the fact that generally from childhood onwards here and back in India we seemed to be only taught how to bowl medium pace (well, relatively fast, but only relatively), so when I took an interest in leg spin, there wasn't really any help with getting things right, meaning that I more or less got chucked straight into matches here and was quite inconsistent. At least, quite a few wides, and I would probably have gone for quite a lot of runs for no good reason if the batsmen were good. Also, of course, all of our practice sessions revolved around nets.

But yeah, since I started again last week (using an empty net), I seem to be bowling with a straighter line, rather than everything drifting to the leg side, and spinning it more (someblokecalleddave's sites helped here, thanks). The only problems I am having is with run-up and follow-through, and I figure I should be able to sort those out by putting some effort into them (eg. using the 'hurdle' drill for the follow-through). Also, I seem to be bowling a bit too full, I bowled a few balls to batsmen and it seems that about half are going to the point where they can be driven easily on the full by somebody standing in a normal position. I figure that that would improve with practicing with more precise targets, rather than focusing primarily on line, though if you have any general advice on the matter, that could be useful.

Other than that, I'll be picking up Philpott's book quite soon. Do you think Grimmett's books add much to this? 'Tricking the Batsman' sound interesting, since the strategical aspect of bowling is one of the most interesting parts, though it seems very rare. As for the others, 'Getting Wickets' may well be worth it, though I don't know much about 'On Cricket'. I've already watched the Jenner and Casson videos, the latter probably being more helpful at the moment, as I'm not really bowling any variations as yet. Though when it comes to those, I suppose that a slider would basically consist of moving the wrist further at release?

Other than that, I'll be bowling tomorrow afternoon (today I was playing squash), so hopefully I'll be able to improve on the problems mentioned. This thread in its various incarnations was very helpful, though I've only read through some of it, so I figure I may as well sign up, and hopefully be able to contribute more as I (hopefully) improve.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Did some bowling practise in the garden again today with a camera running this time so hopefully I'll have it up on YouTube later today, in the meantime here's a photo which shows just how roundarm I am at the point of delivery:

Definitely need to get that arm up!!!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Definitely need to get that arm up!!!

why?

i constantly hear people at club level (usually batsmen) telling every leg spinner that their arm needs to be higher. their reasoning is usually that it results in a straighter and more accurate delivery. the straight part is what causes the issues for me, because a spinner shouldnt be looking to contain with a tight line at the stumps, thats the job for the medium pacers. a leggies job is to spin, and get wickets.

the 2 greatest leg spinners of all time both had very round arm actions. Grimmett and Warne. 'nuff said

if round arm is your natural action then stick with it. dont change it unless you need to. i feel that round arm generates more spin and a more consistent seam position. im trying to move my arm down further if i can because its crept up since last season and it makes it harder to find the seam on big leg breaks.

i look forward to the videos later though!!

 

[Shahbaz]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I'm not sure I'd call Warne 'very' round armed. When it comes to Grimmett, I suppose I may as well post this for reference.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Definitely need to get that arm up!!!

Please don't. It looks exactly like a copy of grimmett in that still photo. Just need a cap and to place your weight slightly forward and for all we know you may be clarrie re-incarnated. Love that left arm tucked into the ribs. You seem to be on the right track for a beginner. Grimmett had a wicket in his garden, so there are many parrallels. Maybe get the arm up for a topspinner and especially for the googly. But for the leg break if it starts getting together please leave it that way. As the others say the 2 best leggies and Macgill were very roundarm, so if it works stick to it. I presume the trajectory may be more tricky, as batsmen may be more accustomed to the vertical armed bowler, even though our dave got bagloads with his vertical arm, but in his case he has the accuracy of a swiss clock in his favour. I wonder which class Macca, Gundalf, Paulinho and the others fall into. Jim is also reasonably round arm and seems to give it a good rip, and when he gets it right seems to have a beautiful action when he flicks the ball with wrist and fingers.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Definitely need to get that arm up!!!

Maybe, maybe not. Whatever works for you. Roundarm has it's advantages and most young leggies I see are too overarm to spin a big legbreak that makes pace off the pitch. That photo you posted is definately of a legspinner.

 

[legspinenthusiast]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Has any one ever bowled a big gun as described by someblockcalleddave, Jim and others. I understood the technique as described by them in this thread as well as Dave's blog of leg spin. I really want to see a video of some one doing this. Did Shane Warne ever do it? Were his big spinning leg breaks using this technique? If so can some one point me to the video showing it. I do not see it any where. His dismissals using big leg break like Chanderpaul, Gooch etc YouTube - Best of Shane Warne I thought were conventional leg breaks with side spin and not back spin which is the case in biggun. Can some one please clarify?

Is this method not being used any more? It is really tough to do and I want to see some one who has done it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I'm currently just getting back into cricket, it seems last time I didn't really seem to know what I was doing (or, at least, much related to technique), and just lost interest in continuing. I suppose this could also relate to the fact that generally from childhood onwards here and back in India we seemed to be only taught how to bowl medium pace (well, relatively fast, but only relatively), so when I took an interest in leg spin, there wasn't really any help with getting things right, meaning that I more or less got chucked straight into matches here and was quite inconsistent. At least, quite a few wides, and I would probably have gone for quite a lot of runs for no good reason if the batsmen were good. Also, of course, all of our practice sessions revolved around nets.

But yeah, since I started again last week (using an empty net), I seem to be bowling with a straighter line, rather than everything drifting to the leg side, and spinning it more (someblokecalleddave's sites helped here, thanks). The only problems I am having is with run-up and follow-through, and I figure I should be able to sort those out by putting some effort into them (eg. using the 'hurdle' drill for the follow-through). Also, I seem to be bowling a bit too full, I bowled a few balls to batsmen and it seems that about half are going to the point where they can be driven easily on the full by somebody standing in a normal position. I figure that that would improve with practicing with more precise targets, rather than focusing primarily on line, though if you have any general advice on the matter, that could be useful.

Other than that, I'll be picking up Philpott's book quite soon. Do you think Grimmett's books add much to this? 'Tricking the Batsman' sound interesting, since the strategical aspect of bowling is one of the most interesting parts, though it seems very rare. As for the others, 'Getting Wickets' may well be worth it, though I don't know much about 'On Cricket'. I've already watched the Jenner and Casson videos, the latter probably being more helpful at the moment, as I'm not really bowling any variations as yet. Though when it comes to those, I suppose that a slider would basically consist of moving the wrist further at release?

Other than that, I'll be bowling tomorrow afternoon (today I was playing squash), so hopefully I'll be able to improve on the problems mentioned. This thread in its various incarnations was very helpful, though I've only read through some of it, so I figure I may as well sign up, and hopefully be able to contribute more as I (hopefully) improve.

Tricking the batsman is as rare as Rocking Horse Pooh, I can't get hold of it at all unless I'm prepared to pay a premium and at the minute I'm not. If you look around there are two copies of it at the moment floating around one for around 35 GBP's and the other more than 200 as it's a signed copy and they're both in Australia. If you send me an email I can give you the e mail of the shop.

Grimmetts 'Taking Wickets' is a good book written pretty much in the same way as Philpotts book is e.g. aimed at youngsters, but it's very interesting in that it throws so much light on the 'Round the loop' theory and also applies it to the Flipper hence, the reason on this thread we discuss the Flipper in terms of it having 4 or 5 different variants. It's worth reading just to get the sense of Grimmetts genius and the perspective it enables you to have on how radical Grimmett was a developer and protaganist of wrist spinning. The importance of Grimmetts work and his books has recently been picked up in Woolmers book 'Art and Science of cricket' Woolmer pays tribute to Grimmetts work and acknowledges that it has somehow been lost to cricket and that Grimmetts genius as an innovator somehow over-looked. I would recommend anyone learning wrist spin bowling read 'Taking wickets' as for 'Tricking the batsman' I can't comment but I think Macca and Saddo both own a copy and they might be able to fill you in on how good a book that is?

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Maybe, maybe not. Whatever works for you. Roundarm has it's advantages and most young leggies I see are too overarm to spin a big legbreak that makes pace off the pitch. That photo you posted is definately of a legspinner.

I know the golden rule in cricket is that you shouldn't change an idiosyncratic action unless it's causing you problems, the thing is my round arm action has always caused me problems.

I've only attempted leg spin recently, but back when I was at school trying to bowl without spin I always had this round-arm action and it made it extremely hard for me to reliably bowl straight, a problem I'm still having now I'm bowling leg-spin. I'm not saying I intend to develop a totally vertical action - part of the thinking behind trying leg-spin was that it would be the one form of bowling where my round-arm tendency hampered me least - but I could do with getting it a little higher to improve my accuracy.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Maybe, maybe not. Whatever works for you. Roundarm has it's advantages and most young leggies I see are too overarm to spin a big legbreak that makes pace off the pitch. That photo you posted is definately of a legspinner.

I'm with Macca here, it's a case of individual approaches and techniques. Despite not being a big fan of Benaud, the fact is he was a very good wrist spinner and had a very upright and straight arm, I think Philpotts says that he even went further than straight sometimes. Philpott if I remember rightly says that many wrist spinners have more success with the wrong un using a straight arm. I have a good wrong and a very straight arm, but the consequence of that is my Leg break isn't that much of a big turner.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

G'day to the 2 new blokes on the thread tonight. Good to have you on board, hope to see your progress and comments as you develop your techniques.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Has any one ever bowled a big gun as described by someblockcalleddave, Jim and others. I understood the technique as described by them in this thread as well as Dave's blog of leg spin. I really want to see a video of some one doing this. Did Shane Warne ever do it? Were his big spinning leg breaks using this technique? If so can some one point me to the video showing it. I do not see it any where. His dismissals using big leg break like Chanderpaul, Gooch etc YouTube - Best of Shane Warne I thought were conventional leg breaks with side spin and not back spin which is the case in biggun. Can some one please clarify?

Is this method not being used any more? It is really tough to do and I want to see some one who has done it.

Yeah - when it's executed perfectly e.g. total back-spin, as described by Grimmett back in the 1930's in 'Taking Wickets' and subsequently by Philpott in the 80's in his 'Art of Wrist Spin Bowling' its what we'd refer to on here as 'The real slider'. But then when used with the wrist coming back round the loop a bit it's going to give you the big leg break. The way it's described in my blogs and on here generally is to encourage people to think in terms of rotating the wrist in order to spin the ball in different directions (Going round the loop). Many people when they start to try and spin the ball backwards in towards themselves will simply discover the 'Biggun' - the leg break with the big snapping flick releasing the ball so that it leaves the hand spinning massively with 90 degree rotation.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Also, I seem to be bowling a bit too full, I bowled a few balls to batsmen and it seems that about half are going to the point where they can be driven easily on the full by somebody standing in a normal position. I figure that that would improve with practicing with more precise targets, rather than focusing primarily on line, though if you have any general advice on the matter, that could be useful.

Welcome Shahbaz. That sounds good. Legspinners , in overall bowling terms, need to pitch quite full and it is far better to err on the full side. Too short is mostly a recipe for disaster, unless on purpose in certain situations.

Granted long hops get wickets but I like how you are getting them to drive you, if they are playing you off the backfoot is more a worry, usually.

 

[legspinenthusiast]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah - when it's executed perfectly e.g. total back-spin, as described by Grimmett back in the 1930's in 'Taking Wickets' and subsequently by Philpott in the 80's in his 'Art of Wrist Spin Bowling' its what we'd refer to on here as 'The real slider'. But then when used with the wrist coming back round the loop a bit it's going to give you the big leg break. The way it's described in my blogs and on here generally is to encourage people to think in terms of rotating the wrist in order to spin the ball in different directions (Going round the loop). Many people when they start to try and spin the ball backwards in towards themselves will simply discover the 'Biggun' - the leg break with the big snapping flick releasing the ball so that it leaves the hand spinning massively with 90 degree rotation.

I am still not clear on it. Is there a video showing it? Did warne do it?

Jim - Does any of your video bowling leg spin square leg break over spun leg break use this technique?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I know the golden rule in cricket is that you shouldn't change an idiosyncratic action unless it's causing you problems, the thing is my round arm action has always caused me problems.

I've only attempted leg spin recently, but back when I was at school trying to bowl without spin I always had this round-arm action and it made it extremely hard for me to reliably bowl straight, a problem I'm still having now I'm bowling leg-spin. I'm not saying I intend to develop a totally vertical action - part of the thinking behind trying leg-spin was that it would be the one form of bowling where my round-arm tendency hampered me least - but I could do with getting it a little higher to improve my accuracy.

Yeah I can only say try it and see what happens, one of the keys to bowling well as Mas said earlier is finding your natural pace and a technique that works for you, it needs to feel right and flow, so you can only try.

There's certainly 2 predominant points of view on this thread one is the 'Spin it hard' school of thought - which comes with it intrinsic problems of controlling the line and length - but when it comes together is obviously an incredible achievement and an amazing thing to see. The other is primarily my approach the 'Line and length with spin' school of thought. Though having said that I'm constantly searching for the Big Leg Break but just coming at it from the other direction e.g. I've got the elements of control but just need to add the Biggun to my repetoire.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I am still not clear on it. Is there a video showing it? Did warne do it?

Jim - Does any of your video bowling leg spin square leg break over spun leg break use this technique?

Jims got the video technology to film it in slow mo and I'm hoping to do the same in the spring. Maybe then we can clarify what all this is about with in terms of visual evidence. As far as I'm aware there is no close up footage of Warne bowling a real Slider. It's going to be interesting to see the nuances and the differences between the Slider and the Biggun as I reckon it's absolutley minimal, but I may be surprised?