Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

The balls that bowled gatting but particularly strauss were big leg breaks, the big one in my book. They have close to 100% sidespin with no back/topspin. On the other hand anything beyond the big leg break ie anything with a tiny bit of backspin will spin large as well if landing on the seam will stay lower. In an ideal world a slider would be full backspin, but I doubt who has the suppleness of wrist to bowl that. Having said that I doubt anyone bowls a big one and it turns every time. I got mine to turn today 1 in every 4 or 5 attempts, but this was on tarmac, and as I stated before I believe the great bounce you get from tarmac accentuates/magnifies the turn/spin generated. A few of warnes big spinners came from landing in the rough.

I try mine by trying to bowl as though I am bowling under arm from further away from the body than what i do with the normal leg break, and before leaving the ball try to spin it towards me. It is not automatic for me, I have to really concentrate on where my palm is facing throughout the delivery, and does not look very pretty. But when it turns, it turns very big
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

someblokecalleddave;387873 said:
Jims got the video technology to film it in slow mo and I'm hoping to do the same in the spring. Maybe then we can clarify what all this is about with in terms of visual evidence. As far as I'm aware there is no close up footage of Warne bowling a real Slider. It's going to be interesting to see the nuances and the differences between the Slider and the Biggun as I reckon it's absolutley minimal, but I may be surprised?
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I thought warne bowled a lot of sliders. many of the wickets that he took were attributed to this ball. I remember Jim talking about this some time back. May be it was against the south africans when he took lot of wickets.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387877 said:
I thought warne bowled a lot of sliders. many of the wickets that he took were attributed to this ball. I remember Jim talking about this some time back. May be it was against the south africans when he took lot of wickets.
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The ball that got bell out was a slider, but not the one of the round the loop variety. If you see his video with Nicholas, it is a leg break without the spin ie it goes straight on. The round the loop slider as suggested by philpott/grimmett will either turn big with less bounce or go straight and low. That is my understanding of it all.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sadspinner;387876 said:
The balls that bowled gatting but particularly strauss were big leg breaks, the big one in my book. They have close to 100% sidespin with no back/topspin. On the other hand anything beyond the big leg break ie anything with a tiny bit of backspin will spin large as well if landing on the seam will stay lower. In an ideal world a slider would be full backspin, but I doubt who has the suppleness of wrist to bowl that. Having said that I doubt anyone bowls a big one and it turns every time. I got mine to turn today 1 in every 4 or 5 attempts, but this was on tarmac, and as I stated before I believe the great bounce you get from tarmac accentuates/magnifies the turn/spin generated. A few of warnes big spinners came from landing in the rough.

I try mine by trying to bowl as though I am bowling round arm from further away from the body than what i do with the normal leg break, and before leaving the ball try to spin it towards me. It is not automatic for me, I have to really concentrate on where my palm is facing throughout the delivery, and does not look very pretty. But when it turns, it turns very big
Click to expand...

Are you saying that you bowl your big leg break and it has back spin? Sorry it was not totally clear to me.

I am assuming it is just the technique to make you think that you are putting back spin on the ball to make it land at 90 degree to the pitch with perfect side spin. Shouldn't a ball with 90 degree seam and perfect backspin become off spin?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sadspinner;387876 said:
The balls that bowled gatting but particularly strauss were big leg breaks, the big one in my book. They have close to 100% sidespin with no back/topspin. On the other hand anything beyond the big leg break ie anything with a tiny bit of backspin will spin large as well if landing on the seam will stay lower. In an ideal world a slider would be full backspin, but I doubt who has the suppleness of wrist to bowl that. Having said that I doubt anyone bowls a big one and it turns every time. I got mine to turn today 1 in every 4 or 5 attempts, but this was on tarmac, and as I stated before I believe the great bounce you get from tarmac accentuates/magnifies the turn/spin generated. A few of warnes big spinners came from landing in the rough.

I try mine by trying to bowl as though I am bowling round arm from further away from the body than what i do with the normal leg break, and before leaving the ball try to spin it towards me. It is not automatic for me, I have to really concentrate on where my palm is facing throughout the delivery, and does not look very pretty. But when it turns, it turns very big
Click to expand...

Are you saying that you bowl your big leg break and it has back spin? Sorry it was not totally clear to me.

I am assuming it is just the technique to make you think that you are putting back spin on the ball to make it land at 90 degree to the pitch with perfect side spin. Would it a ball with 90 degree and perfect backspin become off spin?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387857 said:
Has any one ever bowled a big gun as described by someblockcalleddave, Jim and others. I understood the technique as described by them in this thread as well as Dave's blog of leg spin. I really want to see a video of some one doing this. Did Shane Warne ever do it? Were his big spinning leg breaks using this technique? If so can some one point me to the video showing it. I do not see it any where. His dismissals using big leg break like Chanderpaul, Gooch etc YouTube - Best of Shane Warne I thought were conventional leg breaks with side spin and not back spin which is the case in biggun. Can some one please clarify?

Is this method not being used any more? It is really tough to do and I want to see some one who has done it.
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That video is such bad quality you're not likely to be able to see it. I've just looked at Jenners video of the slider on youtube YouTube - How to bowl leg spin like Shane Warne the thing is if you read Grimmetts books and Philpotts books which have got to be the Bibles as far as wrist spinning is concerned you'll see that there's a great deal of ignorance with regards what has been written on the subject. Typically there's the cricinfo website legspin article that purports to be written about the mechanics of legspin yet the 'Expert' that wrote the article virtually dismisses the Flipper as being a trick of Warnes a non existant ball. Similarly Macca in his research has contacted bowlers such as Ashley Mallett and Terry Jenner? And asked them directly about the Flipper variations and both men despite being experts in their field have no knowledge of the Top-Spinning Flipper or dispute it's existance, if I remember rightly Jenner has said with regards the Top Spinning Flipper that he has tried it and said that it was physically impossible to bowl further than about 11 yards, yet I bowl it and so does Gundalf (Another contributor) and it was Grimmetts conclusion to 12 years of experimentation with the Flipper variants. Grimmett didn't use the back-spinning flipper as he thought it was redundant up against the big flick - back-spinning Slider!

More evidence is seen when you watch Warne talking to 'up and coming' wrist spinners as he did this summer at the Ashes. As soon as he starts to talk in terms of variations the 2 blokes he was bowling with were absolutely clueless - they didn't know what he was talking about let alone be able to bowl them!!!

Look at this - YouTube - BigHitterMag.com Danish Kaneria's Master Class. Bowling the flipper this is supposed to be a Flipper?

Similarly Jenners slider is one of a handful of ways that you can bowl it, but it doesn't include the big flick, if Jenner was to snap his wrist and fingers hard to inpart big spin he'd be spinning the ball back in towards himself producing the 'Purists' Slider as described by both Grimmett and Philpott.

But I have to conceded as someone has said in the comments on the Danish Kaneria video of the Flipper - each individual has their own way and it's down to them as to what works and what doesn't. We also realise that professionals do a job and therefore possibly don't have the time or the inclination to have worked on all the variations or even be aware of them or their history. They have coaches that tell them do A,B,C and make sure you're good at that or you're out on your arse, so it's no surprise that many of the greats have no concept of wrist spins history and heritage?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I am sorry, but it is very difficult to explain the mechanics of it, but as we discussed in the past, you have to somehow propell the ball forwards while spinning it back towards you, which is not easy, even though some are naturally gifted and do it without thinking. I find it difficult to understand the 90 degree issue. The seam wit a big leg break while travelling has the seam from point to square leg sort of ie= . Aslider would be more// if the lines are understood as the seam. Sorry it is the best way I can describe it. But it comes and goes, the big one I mean, but today I practiced about 3 hours and when it turned it turned about 3 feet,nearly square sometimes. But the doubts persist about the tarmac track I use and the fact that different makes of balls do not all spin and bounce to the same extent. I was also assisted by a strongish wind that helped the leg break, so doubts are always there.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387880 said:
Are you saying that you bowl your big leg break and it has back spin? Sorry it was not totally clear to me.

I am assuming it is just the technique to make you think that you are putting back spin on the ball to make it land at 90 degree to the pitch with perfect side spin. Shouldn't a ball with 90 degree seam and perfect backspin become off spin?
Click to expand...

No - when trying to learn it, try giving it back-spin. If you've got a leg break and you can't get a great deal of turn off the wicket with it and you're lost as to what to do - it may just be a case that you're losing your wrist position accuracy in the delivery. One solution to try is to simply try the back-spinning flick. It's how both Grimmett and Philpott both advocate learning the big turning leg break - think 'Spin it inwards' as you flick the ball and then in the action a lot of people then find suddenly they've sussed it. As I said if you were able to video it in slow - motion what you actually do may be different to what you think you're doing. My own big turning leg break I have to do virtually the same thing - I think and it feels like I'm almost doing a Karate Chop action as I release the ball - yet it comes out as my biggest variation of the leg break.

Do you already bowl leg breaks? Have you got Philpotts book?

Have you seen this - I'm assumimg you have? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zob1Md0HVqs

Actually with this - it sounds like you're starting to grasp the concept "I am assuming it is just the technique to make you think that you are putting back spin on the ball to make it land at 90 degree to the pitch with perfect side spin. Shouldn't a ball with 90 degree seam and perfect backspin become off spin?" Yes by practicing putting back-spin on the ball with the big flick in the release, you just have to come back a bit from the back-spin which will give you the slider and you might find the big leg break. As I said it just offers another way of approaching learning how to produce the 'biggun' kind of thinking outside of the box.

Another thing is to try it. Do the back-spinning big flick that I demonstrate in my video and let the ball fall to the floor rather than catch it - you'll see where it goes - back towards you yet you'll see that you're releasing the ball with forward motion. Then turn the wrist slightly outwards and you'll find it turns at right angles to the forward motion. If you've got the big leg break anyway this is all irrelevant, it's an exercise that might help you find the big leg break and or the Slider if you're having trouble developing it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sadspinner;387883 said:
I am sorry, but it is very difficult to explain the mechanics of it, but as we discussed in the past, you have to somehow propell the ball forwards while spinning it back towards you, which is not easy, even though some are naturally gifted and do it without thinking. I find it difficult to understand the 90 degree issue. The seam wit a big leg break while travelling has the seam from point to square leg sort of ie= . Aslider would be more// if the lines are understood as the seam. Sorry it is the best way I can describe it. But it comes and goes, the big one I mean, but today I practiced about 3 hours and when it turned it turned about 3 feet,nearly square sometimes. But the doubts persist about the tarmac track I use and the fact that different makes of balls do not all spin and bounce to the same extent. I was also assisted by a strongish wind that helped the leg break, so doubts are always there.
Click to expand...

Thanks for more clarification. Now wouldn't a ball with seam point to square leg sort ie = (as you explained) with back spin be perfect offspin? That is the point of my confusion?

Also, why do we want to learn this technique of leg spin with back spin when with conventional side spin warne could spin it over 2 feet. I myself can consistently spin it 1 feet. Does it not beat the purpose?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387887 said:
Thanks for more clarification. Now wouldn't a ball with seam point to square leg sort ie = (as you explained) with back spin be perfect offspin? That is the point of my confusion?

Also, why do we want to learn this technique of leg spin with back spin when with conventional side spin warne could spin it over 2 feet. I myself can consistently spin it 1 feet. Does it not beat the purpose?
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As regards point one, if you turn the knob/ball anticlockwise you get leg spin if you spin it clockwise you get the big offspinner

As regards point two, the advantages are two fold. One is that who has not sussed the big leg break can get to it through this method and two, due to backspin, on a bouncy wicket it will bounce less, so you get more chance of bowled or LBW
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sadspinner;387885 said:
This is how the seam should look like for the big legbreak. PUSH PAUSE PLAY REPEATEDLY SO YOU SLOW DOWN THE MOVEMENTS FURTHER YouTube - Warne to Strauss Sorry for the caps
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Yes, I have seen this video many many times. And I do not see any back spin on it. It is conventional leg spin and again the way you pointed out the seam being point to square leg sort ie ==
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Good attempt there. I think you can slowly build more energy into the final steps, but you look like a yesteryear leggy. Had you seen the grimmett videos that we had posted here as there are many similarities.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387890 said:
Yes, I have seen this video many many times. And I do not see any back spin on it. It is conventional leg spin and again the way you pointed out the seam being point to square leg sort ie ==
Click to expand...

Yes that is the big leg break, with 100% side spin and NO backspin ie NOT the slider. If you can bowl that at will, well you must be something and a few of us may be a tad jealous, especially if you land it on a good line and length. As dave said due to video quality on you tube, I do not recall seeing a slider ie the one round the loop with backspin
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387887 said:
Thanks for more clarification. Now wouldn't a ball with seam point to square leg sort ie = (as you explained) with back spin be perfect offspin? That is the point of my confusion?

Also, why do we want to learn this technique of leg spin with back spin when with conventional side spin warne could spin it over 2 feet. I myself can consistently spin it 1 feet. Does it not beat the purpose?
Click to expand...

You'd be flicking the ball with anti-clockwise spin (As a right - hander) so it'd be leg break. If you're getting the ball to spin a foot and you're okay with that it sounds like you're doing okay anyway and you don't need to work on this as a means of developing a big turning leg break. It's the way that Philpott and Grimmett suggest you train in order to develop the big turning leg break - it's just a suggestion and it works for some people.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387887 said:
Also, why do we want to learn this technique of leg spin with back spin when with conventional side spin warne could spin it over 2 feet. I myself can consistently spin it 1 feet. Does it not beat the purpose?
Click to expand...

Backspin comes in handy in certain situations. Warne bowled everything on the wrist spin loop from wrongun , going anti-clockwise, to backspinner. Usually his legbreaks had a substantial amount of topspin, but occassionally they tilted to some backspin often due to an intended slider that came out a bit wrong.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge;387888 said:
At last I've got round to editing and uploading the video of my bowling from this morning. (Apologies if the quality's not great)
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Nice one - good start. The thing that strikes me as being an area of development would be the lifting of the back leg up round and over. Macca said to me once that the lifting leg should come up and over with so much pronounciation that you kick your arse cheeks with the foot. There's a drill where you place an obstacle on the floor that forces you to lift your leg over it in the delivery. This helps with the body rotation and it's massively important with regards to helping put spin on the ball.

Have a look at my leg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm3VxsgKTKw I don't kick my arse, but you can see it lifts and comes round.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge;387888 said:
At last I've got round to editing and uploading the video of my bowling from this morning. (Apologies if the quality's not great)
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Looks a bit like how my dad used to bowl, and he got loads of wickets. First thing a coach would probably say, starting from the bottom, is look at getting your back foot parallel to the crease.

Seeing how you used to bowl like this when you were younger it might be a good starting point rather than developing an all new overarm approach, would not get any lower though and probably bring it up a bit mostly but could still hurl the occassionally more roundarmer in, they skid through faster and decieve if done right.

Accuracy can be an issue, as you said before, it all takes lots of practise and bowling at targets.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

someblokecalleddave;387886 said:
No - when trying to learn it, try giving it back-spin. If you've got a leg break and you can't get a great deal of turn off the wicket with it and you're lost as to what to do - it may just be a case that you're losing your wrist position accuracy in the delivery. One solution to try is to simply try the back-spinning flick. It's how both Grimmett and Philpott both advocate learning the big turning leg break - think 'Spin it inwards' as you flick the ball and then in the action a lot of people then find suddenly they've sussed it. As I said if you were able to video it in slow - motion what you actually do may be different to what you think you're doing. My own big turning leg break I have to do virtually the same thing - I think and it feels like I'm almost doing a Karate Chop action as I release the ball - yet it comes out as my biggest variation of the leg break.

Do you already bowl leg breaks? Have you got Philpotts book?

Have you seen this - I'm assumimg you have? YouTube - Wrist spin - round the loop - slider & big Leg Break practice technique


Actually with this - it sounds like you're starting to grasp the concept "I am assuming it is just the technique to make you think that you are putting back spin on the ball to make it land at 90 degree to the pitch with perfect side spin. Shouldn't a ball with 90 degree seam and perfect backspin become off spin?" Yes by practicing putting back-spin on the ball with the big flick in the release, you just have to come back a bit from the back-spin which will give you the slider and you might find the big leg break. As I said it just offers another way of approaching learning how to produce the 'biggun' kind of thinking outside of the box.

Another thing is to try it. Do the back-spinning big flick that I demonstrate in my video and let the ball fall to the floor rather than catch it - you'll see where it goes - back towards you yet you'll see that you're releasing the ball with forward motion. Then turn the wrist slightly outwards and you'll find it turns at right angles to the forward motion. If you've got the big leg break anyway this is all irrelevant, it's an exercise that might help you find the big leg break and or the Slider if you're having trouble developing it.
Click to expand...

I have not read Philpotts book but that is on top of my list. All my knowledge or lack of it is due to this forum and the videos that I watch. I do this spinning the ball back into me all the time. It is really hard to keep the seam upright and not wobble. On a repetition of ten I can get it 7 to 8 times.


I want to develop the slider as it is a hard ball for the batsman to pick from the hand and has the same line (I bowl middle and leg stump line). I will start practice from the 1st week of March and will try to learn it the way Terry Jenner talks about in the 5 spin variations. Does any one bowl this on a consistent basis? Do I need to strengthen any part of the arm? I can do it during the next few weeks as there is 3 feet of snow on ground.
 
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