Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim as you are the expert here, can you calculate the vector of what happens to a ball with total side spin against that with side spin and backspin, that may help settle what gives the biggest deviation all things being equal and assuming all variables are the same.Unfortunately my A level physics have long got past the realm of my concious and rational part of my reason.

Having said that when I tried it in the past under arm, the biggest break I get is with full sidespin rather than back and sidespin. I get the feeling that some of the energy to turn the ball sideways is lost when the ball spins backwards when trying the one with side and backspin. Equally it could be the number of revs was higher with the full side spinner. This is all of academic importance, but still an interesting point/

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim as you are the expert here, can you calculate the vector of what happens to a ball with total side spin against that with side spin and backspin, that may help settle what gives the biggest deviation all things being equal and assuming all variables are the same.Unfortunately my A level physics have long got past the realm of my concious and rational part of my reason.

Having said that when I tried it in the past under arm, the biggest break I get is with full sidespin rather than back and sidespin. I get the feeling that some of the energy to turn the ball sideways is lost when the ball spins backwards when trying the one with side and backspin. Equally it could be the number of revs was higher with the full side spinner. This is all of academic importance, but still an interesting point/

i calculated the vectors, and the results are a shock to me! im really quite surprised by the outcome as i was absolutely certain that the maths would prove my theory correct. it still might as i dont think the maths can paint the full picture.

but basically, based on maths alone, the average seam angle at which maximum turn occurs is between 78-86 degrees (where 90 degrees is a square seam, so 4-12 degrees of overspin). which is the opposite of what i expected. the exact angle varies with bowling speed and revs, but only by a few degrees.

however, this cant take into account the ball gripping the surface. my calculation makes the assumption that only 50% of the speed generated on the balls surface by spin translates into sideways motion off the pitch. a ball with some backspin would generate more friction off the pitch, which would mean more of the revs are translated into sideways motion. so im sure youd get more turn this way. its impossible to calculate it though (well, using Excel at least, and with my limited skills lol) as there are too many factors at play.

so the maths is inconclusive, DOH!! but im still adamant that slight backspin = more turn. were not talking much, but probably somewhere between 10-20 degs of backspin.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

a ball with some backspin would generate more friction off the pitch, which would mean more of the revs are translated into sideways motion.

Surely with backspin causing more friction off the pitch that means that a chunk of the energy would change to heat and lessen the turn? All academic I know but nevertheless interseting. Did you ever try them both under arm, and if so what where your observations? I notice that once the backspin is over a certain critical angle it behaves purely as a backspinner, but thereagain, the seam might not be hitting the seam perfectly.

When I started reading philpotts book and he is bowling underarm, I had noticed though that he seems to be bowling underarm with backspin, so maybe his observations were that this gave the greatest turn. Sorry but do not know the page as I do not have the book with me, but have a look and tell us what you think.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Surely with backspin causing more friction off the pitch that means that a chunk of the energy would change to heat and lessen the turn? All academic I know but nevertheless interseting. Did you ever try them both under arm, and if so what where your observations? I notice that once the backspin is over a certain critical angle it behaves purely as a backspinner, but thereagain, the seam might not be hitting the seam perfectly.

When I started reading philpotts book and he is bowling underarm, I had noticed though that he seems to be bowling underarm with backspin, so maybe his observations were that this gave the greatest turn. Sorry but do not know the page as I do not have the book with me, but have a look and tell us what you think.

the extra friction would take pace off the ball, but would add turn.

think slider - it slows down off the pitch. A LOT!! whereas a top spinner nips on a bit after it bounces. if you just spin a ball in your hand and let it drop straight to the floor youll see this very clearly. if it wasnt for magnus and his effects then the top spinner would stay low and the back spinner would bounce higher. hows that for a head f**k!! the extra dip/carry in flight are entirely responsible (i think) for the resultant bounce/lack of.

if you add back spin to a leg break then youll generate more friction. that friction translates into more transferance of rotational energy to kinetic energy (in a sideways direction), and but takes more energy away from the forward motion and so the ball slows off the pitch.

if i bowl complete backspin underarm over about 5 yards i can get the ball to completely roll back to my feet. ive always found that a little backspin adds turn. underarm and overarm, but its always hard to be sure because no human being can ever bowl two 100% identical deliveries back to back, so youre never quite sure if it was genuine proof or not.

im pretty certain that back spin turns more though. my failed slider attempts sold it for me. when i dont get my wrist round far enough for a slider, that is when i bowl my biggest leg breaks. and they can carry through extremely low as well.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the extra friction would take pace off the ball, but would add turn.

think slider - it slows down off the pitch. A LOT!! whereas a top spinner nips on a bit after it bounces. if you just spin a ball in your hand and let it drop straight to the floor youll see this very clearly. if it wasnt for magnus and his effects then the top spinner would stay low and the back spinner would bounce higher. hows that for a head f**k!! the extra dip/carry in flight are entirely responsible (i think) for the resultant bounce/lack of.

if you add back spin to a leg break then youll generate more friction. that friction translates into more transferance of rotational energy to kinetic energy (in a sideways direction), and but takes more energy away from the forward motion and so the ball slows off the pitch.

if i bowl complete backspin underarm over about 5 yards i can get the ball to completely roll back to my feet. ive always found that a little backspin adds turn. underarm and overarm, but its always hard to be sure because no human being can ever bowl two 100% identical deliveries back to back, so youre never quite sure if it was genuine proof or not.

im pretty certain that back spin turns more though. my failed slider attempts sold it for me. when i dont get my wrist round far enough for a slider, that is when i bowl my biggest leg breaks. and they can carry through extremely low as well.

I would agree, via my own observations as recently as yesterday. Not sure of the physics, maybe it does sound counter intuitive, but backspin and sidespin give biggest break off the wicket. Not always but usually. It comes off slower and lower as well.

The mis cued backspinner can spin an incredible distance. But does not make a good stock ball.

 

[legspinenthusiast]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

There is confusion in what a big leg break and a square leg break is here. In my book the biggest leg break is the one with 100% sidespin like the one that bowled strauss. The others with backspin will turn massively but not as much as the one with full side spin. Obviously provided they both hit the seam

OK, Reading all the discussion I am confused again. May be you or Jim can clarify this for me. Let me start by asking two things first:

1] Jim and every one else how do you bowl your slider? Is it the way how Terry Jennery talk about it in his tutorial with 5 spin variations? Like a karate chop? In the video that Jim you sent me of slider it was like how Jenner told.. please clarify?


2] Let me devise a method to clarify the the angle of the seam as the wicket keeper looks at it. So here it is:
1st slip: 10 degrees
2nd slip: 20 degrees
3rd slip: 30 degrees
gully: 45 degrees
point: 90 degrees (square seam)

leg slip: -30 degrees
leg gully: -45 degrees
square leg: -90 degrees

Is the seam position (start of the seam/ball) for the biggest leg break with back spin pointing towards leg slip? Yes/No

Is the seam position (start of the seam/ball) for the biggest leg break with back spin pointing towards 3rd slip? Yes/No

Can some one clear it? I understood from Jim's clarification that the seam should point to leg slip.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Can some one clear it? I understood from Jim's clarification that the seam should point to leg slip.

Round about there will give you the big one, but it is to be used as a variation as it is usually slower and lower than your stock ball needs to be. I reckon anyway.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

OK, Reading all the discussion I am confused again. May be you or Jim can clarify this for me. Let me start by asking two things first:

1] Jim and every one else how do you bowl your slider? Is it the way how Terry Jennery talk about it in his tutorial with 5 spin variations? Like a karate chop? In the video that Jim you sent me of slider it was like how Jenner told.. please clarify?

It can be a confusing term at the moment. There is "the" slider, the backspun legbreak, that goes straight, and "a" slider which is like an arm ball, I suppose, that looks like a legbreak but does not turn. Lot less backspin on the later.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

1] Jim and every one else how do you bowl your slider? Is it the way how Terry Jennery talk about it in his tutorial with 5 spin variations? Like a karate chop? In the video that Jim you sent me of slider it was like how Jenner told.. please clarify?

i bowl the backspun "round the loop" slider, as described by Philpott in his book The Art of Wrist Spin Bowling, and as described by Terry Jenner. my hand action is almost identical to Terry Jenner in his "how to bowl like shane warne" videos. i actually reckon i generate more revs with mine, Jenners action is pretty soft, i rip mine really hard, but the drawback to that is it hurts after a while of practicing. the wrist isnt supposed to go there.

the backspun slider is the original Shane Warne slider, but he didnt call it that. he called it a "Zooter". and it was his most effective straight-break, far more so than the flipper that stole all the attention. the number of times ive heard a commentator refer to a zooter/slider as a flipper, or even just leg breaks that didnt turn as flippers. commentators are the ones that caused most of the confusion, in combination with Warne and his mind games. you watch the "Warnes greatest wicket" compilations on YouTube and i reckon about 20% of the wickets are sliders in his early days.

heres a really good interview that Warne did that i saw ages ago and then couldnt find it again. but i just stumbled across it by accident whilst searching for something else!!

YouTube - Shane Warne On: The Flipper

he shows with his hand the angles of ALL of his deliveries, and gives their names. youll notice 2 things...

1. he shows the "big leg break" with a small amount of backspin
2. he calls his backspinner a "zooter". not a slider. what Warne calls a "slider" is actually more of an arm ball.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

1. he shows the "big leg break" with a small amount of backspin
2. he calls his backspinner a "zooter". not a slider. what Warne calls a "slider" is actually more of an arm ball.

Both things are made clear there. On point 2 Warne shows his zooter is the Philpott "backspinning topspinner" . Grimmett called it a backspinner. It was called a skimmer or a skidder in those days as well . Benaud called it a slider after he was shown how to bowl it. The funny thing is in the official victorian coaching text of the late 70,s they call that ball a flipper!

You can tell now as a commentator warne by slider means a ball that looks like a legbreak but instead of turning back it slides past straight with the arm. Smith got one of his wickets in the twenty20 against Pakistan by what was described as a slider by the commentators. It did not turn back into the lefthander but went straight and he edged a catch to slip.

I always used to call it just a backspinner. So does stuey macgill.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Steve Smith will be playing for Worcestershire in the twenty20 next season. Some of you blokes will be able to get along and have a look.

Mark Nicholson asked warne how he went from 3rd and 4 th grade district to test level in 18 months. One reason was he learnt how to bowl Philpotts backspinning topspinner. He made a huge leap forward at that exact time.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Here is the full interview he did in 1999. We had commented that what he describes as a flipper, looks like what he called a slider in later years( as per video with mark nicholas). Funnily enough, Kaneria on you tube uses the same delivery and calls it a flipper as well. Strange he does not name grimmett or O'reilly amongst the worlds best everI presume he had never heard of them?WorldSport.tv

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Whoa! The back-spin things gone crazy! The original premise of bowling with the back-spin release wasn't intended as a scientifically proven method of making the ball turn more than a 90 degree spinning ball, although like Jim I'd say that from spinning the ball out of the hand over short distances the anecdotal evidence would suggest that there may be evidence that the ball may turn equally if not as more that a the 90 degree turner?

The point of advocating this technique was that it may have got some peoples wrists through stealth into the position whereby they released the ball with the 90 degree seam or maybe more, but the intention is that the net effect of trying to do this might be that anyone that tries it might derive more turn off the wicket? I personally having gone through the 'Googly Syndrome' cannot simply bowl out of the front of my hand with a big flick by bringing my hand over in a position that my brain registers as being palm forward and facing the batsman. If I do that the reality is - even though every sinew in my body and every brain neurotransmitter is seemingly working and acting to produce a Leg Break I end up bowling wrong uns! So the only way I can bowl a leg break is if I bowl in a manner that feels like it should produce an angled ball that feels like the seam should be pointing somewhere between Leg Slip and Square Leg and spinning with back-spin. That's the sensation - but the reality is that the ball comes out spinning with a 90 degree rotation - so it feels like a Karate chop hand position.

In my mind it therefore follows that anyone posting on here who is having trouble bowling a big leg break might then derive more success with learning the big leg break if they try this?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

OK, Reading all the discussion I am confused again. May be you or Jim can clarify this for me. Let me start by asking two things first:

1] Jim and every one else how do you bowl your slider? Is it the way how Terry Jennery talk about it in his tutorial with 5 spin variations? Like a karate chop? In the video that Jim you sent me of slider it was like how Jenner told.. please clarify?


2] Let me devise a method to clarify the the angle of the seam as the wicket keeper looks at it. So here it is:
1st slip: 10 degrees
2nd slip: 20 degrees
3rd slip: 30 degrees
gully: 45 degrees
point: 90 degrees (square seam)

leg slip: -30 degrees
leg gully: -45 degrees
square leg: -90 degrees

Is the seam position (start of the seam/ball) for the biggest leg break with back spin pointing towards leg slip? Yes/No

Is the seam position (start of the seam/ball) for the biggest leg break with back spin pointing towards 3rd slip? Yes/No

Can some one clear it? I understood from Jim's clarification that the seam should point to leg slip.

Yes between Leg slip and Square leg (For me)

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i bowl the backspun "round the loop" slider, as described by Philpott in his book The Art of Wrist Spin Bowling, and as described by Terry Jenner. my hand action is almost identical to Terry Jenner in his "how to bowl like shane warne" videos. i actually reckon i generate more revs with mine, Jenners action is pretty soft, i rip mine really hard, but the drawback to that is it hurts after a while of practicing. the wrist isnt supposed to go there.

the backspun slider is the original Shane Warne slider, but he didnt call it that. he called it a "Zooter". and it was his most effective straight-break, far more so than the flipper that stole all the attention. the number of times ive heard a commentator refer to a zooter/slider as a flipper, or even just leg breaks that didnt turn as flippers. commentators are the ones that caused most of the confusion, in combination with Warne and his mind games. you watch the "Warnes greatest wicket" compilations on YouTube and i reckon about 20% of the wickets are sliders in his early days.

heres a really good interview that Warne did that i saw ages ago and then couldnt find it again. but i just stumbled across it by accident whilst searching for something else!!

YouTube - Shane Warne On: The Flipper

he shows with his hand the angles of ALL of his deliveries, and gives their names. youll notice 2 things...

1. he shows the "big leg break" with a small amount of backspin
2. he calls his backspinner a "zooter". not a slider. what Warne calls a "slider" is actually more of an arm ball.

Whoa! Shane Warne demonstrates a weird Flipper when he's young!! YouTube - Shane Warne On: The Flipper WTF is that all about - that is the weirdest rendition of the Flipper I've ever seen him describe, but then maybe he wasn't thinking in terms of how he was presenting his hand to the camera - the way this was presented was similar to the off-spinning Flipper!!!!?????

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Here is the full interview he did in 1999. We had commented that what he describes as a flipper, looks like what he called a slider in later years( as per video with mark nicholas). Funnily enough, Kaneria on you tube uses the same delivery and calls it a flipper as well. Strange he does not enough name grimmett or O'reilly amongst the worlds best everI presume he had never heard of them?WorldSport.tv

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised at all if he'd never heard of O'reilly and Grimmett. Yeah your right about the Kaneria clip - maybe Kaneria knows this clip and used it as a point of reference?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Steve Smith will be playing for Worcestershire in the twenty20 next season. Some of you blokes will be able to get along and have a look.

Mark Nicholson asked warne how he went from 3rd and 4 th grade district to test level in 18 months. One reason was he learnt how to bowl Philpotts backspinning topspinner. He made a huge leap forward at that exact time.

I'll have to keep an eye out for an Essex - Worcester match and try and see him - might get to see him and Kaneria!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Whoa! Shane Warne demonstrates a weird Flipper when he's young!! YouTube - Shane Warne On: The Flipper WTF is that all about - that is the weirdest rendition of the Flipper I've ever seen him describe, but then maybe he wasn't thinking in terms of how he was presenting his hand to the camera - the way this was presented was similar to the off-spinning Flipper!!!!?????

i think he was presenting the deliveries as if his arm were at his side, hence it looks like he bowls the flipper sideways, its deceptive. i like how well he disguises the hand though. ive made major changes to my flipping action in my hand over the winter, so mine is now also fully concealed. the only giveaway is the thumb underneath the ball, the same as with Warne. it would take a brave batsman to second guess it though.

also, back to the subject of "obvious things that you never thought of before" that we were discussing last week....

i never realised which length the flipper was most effective on. i always figured it would need to be full, else the batsman would have too much time to adapt to it going straight. i had missed the point though. it is best used on a short length, bowled with minimal flight, so that the batsman expects to be able to cut or pull it off the back foot. he gets back into his crease ready for it, but the ball reaches his faster than expected and doesnt bounce up, and his pads are totally exposed in front of the stumps and prime for LBW.

i always thought a "long hop" was long from the bowlers perspective. i guess it actually means a shorter delivery!! its taken me a year to realise that lol.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

also, back to the subject of "obvious things that you never thought of before" that we were discussing last week....

i never realised which length the flipper was most effective on. i always figured it would need to be full, else the batsman would have too much time to adapt to it going straight. i had missed the point though. it is best used on a short length, bowled with minimal flight, so that the batsman expects to be able to cut or pull it off the back foot. he gets back into his crease ready for it, but the ball reaches his faster than expected and doesnt bounce up, and his pads are totally exposed in front of the stumps and prime for LBW.

i always thought a "long hop" was long from the bowlers perspective. i guess it actually means a shorter delivery!! its taken me a year to realise that lol.

What you say is true the idea is to pitch it short so the batsman thinks it is a long hop/short delivery and he thinks he can cut/pull it. But as far as I remember, Warne still got the wickets with his flipper with good length balls, but will have to check later.

 

[Legspin is my life]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi to all members

i am trying to recover from my googly syndrome but not completely successful
when bowl short distances i get leg break but with the usual bowling its googly
also i find something changed in my action but i can figure out what it is
after the jump i dont feel like i comin completely sidearm and bowling and getting my arm high enough

i feel like i am missing something in the end that final rip