Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[Shahbaz]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

"I developed a routine where I would go towards square leg, stand there, switch off and control my breathing. I sort of stayed in the "now" by rubbing my back or just focusing on my breathing, and I would go, "This ball, this ball, this ball, this ball." Then, "Soft hands, soft hands, soft hands," as I took my stance. Then I would look at the bowler and go, "Watch the ball, watch the ball, watch the ball." Those were my three affirmations. The softer and the slower I spoke, the more relaxed I was. I used the affirmations so that no other thought could get in. And that's how I controlled my concentration and my ability to see the ball."
-Martin Crowe.

That comes from this interview, which I found to be pretty useful when it comes to batting (though I'm still not even close to an all-rounder). Perhaps this kind of thing could be useful when it comes to concentration for bowling as well, though probably it would only be useful before starting your run-up, when I usually just take a deep breath. Other than that, has anybody read this book? It looks interesting, with a chapter on Barnes and Laker, Peebles on Grimmett and O'Reilly and such. If the focus is on their bowling, then the parts on Grimmett and O'Reilly could be pretty interesting, especially coming from another spinner, though I'm not sure about Cardus on Barnes or Arlott on Laker.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I would guess you meant leg stump? Though that would be impressive.

yeh, i did mean outside leg stump. ive edited the post. a leg break outside off stump that clean bowled someone would have to turn the entire way around the earth and come back again! that would be one hell of a delivery

 

[gashead23]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Those bowling figures are OK. Depends on how many overs you bowled but also how lucky you were too. Were you bowling legspin?

I do bowl out the back of my hand although to define it as legspin would be generous. I seem to bowl constant googlys and topspinners although in the nets on friday I seemed to have regained my long lost leg break.

My problem is getting enough bowling I normally only bowl on sundays in the friendlies (might bowl a couple of overs to fill in on the league games on a saturday).

So I think they view me more as a specialist batsman when in my mind im more of a Hogg then a Cameron White

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

(Except that guy you were bowling to indoors and he would not come out to play. He must have used all his crease and played you on your bounce, what comes down must go up he may have figured. Have you bowled to him again?)

not bowled at him again yet, he wasnt at nets last week. and to be fair, the week i did bowl at him my length was probably quite scatterred. i think now that ive found some form again it will be a fairer assessment.

if hes at nets tomorrow evening then il make a point to bowl at him for his full session. hes very forthcoming with advice on how to bowl at him though. so if i ask him what length would make him less comfortable then he will tell me. ive never bowled at him when he hasnt said "it needs to be fuller" though, and that includes bowling on what i would normally regard as an overly full length! id love to stand next to the stumps and see how close he comes to hitting them with the bat (or even his feet), he gets so far back!!

also, if i can get the flipper or slider working properly it might be a good test for it!! what goes up must come down, unless it grips the pitch and zips through low

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

also, if i can get the flipper or slider working properly it might be a good test for it!! what goes up must come down, unless it grips the pitch and zips through low

I reckon he's gone if you get one of either of those deliveries on the stumps. Although your slider might still bounce too much for LBW ?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Saw Mishra bowling a couple of front of the hand sliders as per Nicholas video (not the jenner one). The batsman was supposed to be out LBW, but the umpire did not give it. It went straight on and had a scrambled seam as opposed to the usual leg break. Unfortunately he bowled some loose balls, always allowing the batsman to get a single, so he could not work on the batsman.So it happens even at this highest level. Sometimes I doubt how much we can use plans to get batsman out by a plan. Getting accuracy of line and length is so difficult.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

On the idea of a perect fivefer

1. To a left hander - an edge to slips from a wrong un playing forward shot.
2. Round the back of the legs of a RH player pitched miles outside legstump coming in to hit the bails of off-stump.
3. Bowled and caught playing against the spin of a wrong un. (Must include spectacular full stretch dive and caught with one hand a la' Paul Collingwood).
4. Flipper swinging in from wide of the off-side pitching on leg stump skidding in going under the bat and LBW or any stumps.
5. Wrong un out of no-where hitting middle and leg where the bat was trying to cut the leg break.

Shame on you, only one leg break from the five deliveries to take a wicket. At heart you are still a googly bowler

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

On the idea of a perect fivefer

1. To a left hander - an edge to slips from a wrong un playing forward shot.
2. Round the back of the legs of a RH player pitched miles outside legstump coming in to hit the bails of off-stump.
3. Bowled and caught playing against the spin of a wrong un. (Must include spectacular full stretch dive and caught with one hand a la' Paul Collingwood).
4. Flipper swinging in from wide of the off-side pitching on leg stump skidding in going under the bat and LBW or any stumps.
5. Wrong un out of no-where hitting middle and leg where the bat was trying to cut the leg break.

Shame on you, only one leg break from the five deliveries to take a wicket. At heart you are still a googly bowler

Never noticed that - but this is in the context of bowling primarily Leg Breaks and then sneaking the googly in amongst them. As a Googly bowler it would never happen, it's like being a finger spinner bowling off-breaks having the Googly syndrome e.g. not a lot of cop!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I had a proper bowl today about 60-90 balls? Went well, the only ball letting me down was the Flipper which needs some work as that was ending up down the Leg side 40% of the time. All the others were pretty good, with the excpetion of the Flippers I'd have been happy to have filmed a sequence of 20-30 balls.

On the subject of the back-spinning technique and whether it produces more turn than the 90 degree perfectly rotating ball - try it with any ball and spin it on almost any surface and the results are pretty conclusive over a short distance.

The 90 degree ball kind of trips over itself, the forward motion is partially stalled by about 10% (at a rough guess) as the ball grips the surface. The side spin then has it's affect, but a lot of the potential side-spin is negated by the 90% forward motion. Whereas the back-spinning ball because of the back-spin massively stalls by 70% and the side spin seems to bite more because of forward motion has been negated and the ball turns at right angles (90 degrees) rather than at 45 degrees with the previous 90 degree spinning ball. Try it you'll see - slight back-spin works better than total side-spin.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

On the subject of the back-spinning technique and whether it produces more turn than the 90 degree perfectly rotating ball - try it with any ball and spin it on almost any surface and the results are pretty conclusive over a short distance.

The 90 degree ball kind of trips over itself, the forward motion is partially stalled by about 10% (at a rough guess) as the ball grips the surface. The side spin then has it's affect, but a lot of the potential side-spin is negated by the 90% forward motion. Whereas the back-spinning ball because of the back-spin massively stalls by 70% and the side spin seems to bite more because of forward motion has been negated and the ball turns at right angles (90 degrees) rather than at 45 degrees with the previous 90 degree spinning ball. Try it you'll see - slight back-spin works better than total side-spin.

Yeah i have tried it and its true. Any ball using grimmetts finger clicking flipper spin is best to demonstrate it i reckon. But grimmett disliked backspin as it slowed the pace he wanted to gain through overspin. He used the biggest break with backspin as a rare variation.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Some success with the Biggun.........

It's been dry here today in Essex, cold but dry (4 degrees centigrade) so I had the opportunity to throw a few balls and spent 1/2 or so bowling my stuff. Today everything was coming out of the hand well with the exception of the wrong un, but I wasn't that fussed as it was either going straight or very slightly to the legside e.g. a ball pitched on the line and length I bowl to was ending up on leg stump, so in a game situation it would have worked anyway.

The last bucket of balls (just as it started to snow) I decided that I'd give the Biggun a go what with all the talk and theory being discussed recently. Added to that over the winter I've been flicking the ball inwards with back-spin 90% of the time so in theory it might come out of the hand quite readily. I moved the bowling marker a bit closer - 18 yards and tried it. Of the 18 balls 3 of them were dragged down 1 or 2 went straight but all of the other went exceptionally well. I'm using hockey balls on rough/old tarmac and I bowled round the wicket bowling well wide of the leg-stump and virtually all of the balls ended up wide of off-stump or hitting the stumps albeit with a very loopy flight and very slow. In a game they'd have all been hit for 4's and 6's out to the leg-side by anyone with any batting ability.

The good thing is it was working and this is at the start of the season with freezing cold hands and with me being very much out of practice and not particularly fit at the minute. This now gives me food for thought as I've got no plans for any real bowling development other than to keep my four deliveries nice and tight and working well which will be just day to day practice. With this session today probably representing the biggest step forward with the 'Biggun' (Big Leg Break) I'm now considering having this as my main development plan for this season? I'd already planned to try it out every now and then to see if it was showing any promise as I did today, but today has been a bit of epiphanic event and this could be the start of something good I reckon.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

In a game they'd have all been hit for 4's and 6's out to the leg-side by anyone with any batting ability.

Well if you are talking about bowling it every ball it probably would but if it comes as a surprise to the batsman as a variation it might get a wicket. The best situation to use the biggun is as a variation I reckon. It will turn on wickets where nothing else does, you can use it more often then as well.

They always used to say "its not how far you spin it but how fast you spin it". Not speed through the air out of the hand but the speed of the side spin. Slow side spin can allow the batsman to recover even if beaten in flight.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Well if you are talking about bowling it every ball it probably would but if it comes as a surprise to the batsman as a variation it might get a wicket. The best situation to use the biggun is as a variation I reckon. It will turn on wickets where nothing else does, you can use it more often then as well.

They always used to say "its not how far you spin it but how fast you spin it". Not speed through the air out of the hand but the speed of the side spin. Slow side spin can allow the batsman to recover even if beaten in flight.

Yeah I grasped that watching it, but it's going to be some time before I can bowl it at will amongst my usual leg breaks. My mate bowls a biggun but his bowling is so erratic that he sprays around all over the place and some of them come out as sliders, so it's like all the erratic stuff is his stock approach and then one of them will be in the right area and it'll go round the back of the legs. I want to go -

Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Off stump away from the edge of the bat
Wide of leg stump turn in on the off-stump - your back in the sheds mate!

One of those ones where the bloke sees it coming and thinks - 'whoa - he's screwed up that one' leaves it and then hears the clatter of bails.

I'm off to nets now, this'll be the 2nd time I've bowled today and the body is feeling it!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had a blinding session this evening. well, the first hour at least. first batsman up was the other full time leg spinner, and hes a handy batsman as well. he punished most of my deliveries last week, but this week went a lot better. i bowled a few looseners, then i bowled 6 deliveries back to back, all absolutely on the money (basically the same as i bowl in my videos), on a great length, turning huge, bouncing, drifting and dipping. everything.

he gloved the first one to slip. then edged the next 3 to slip. defended one, then edged another. all 5 were definite wickets (assuming the slip fielder wasnt useless), its without a doubt the best ive ever bowled. by a long way. then i faded away a bit. so i moved net lanes to have a go at a leftie. i was struggling for line a bit, but not for turn, for the first 30 mins it was absolutely ripping. i was landing the ball about 3 feet outside off stump (no exaggeration, it was too wide to hit before it turned!), OFF THE MATS on the carpet floor surface, and turning it back in over off stump with huge bounce lol. the first ball he was going to leave, and it came back in and hit him in the chest. he couldnt play any shots off it, but it wasnt really threatening a wicket.

throughout the session i faded away, i bowled probably 40 first rate deliveries all night, and probably 60 shocking ones (drag downs mostly). but when i got it right it was seriously good. i dont like to overstate myself too much or come across as cocky, but they were genuinely international wicket taking deliveries. completely unplayable. i think of the 40 or so good ones i bowled, about 20 would have had wickets.

i also bowled at the back foot player ive been mentioning. he didnt cream me today like usual, i was just pitching it further and further up under his nose until he came forward. i got him to come forward to one and he edged to slip! i got him with one that he thought he should play back, but it was too full for that, and he only just blocked it, and the bottom of his bat would have taken the bails off if there had been any! his foot almost touched the base of the stumps. he was THAT close. which gives a good idea of how deep he plays. the answer was simply to pitch it about a yard outside his crease. that was the start of my form disappearing though, because i struggled to adjust my length back again afterwards.

i think for the first time ever my fingers fatigued! by the last 20 mins i was really struggling to release the ball, lots of drag downs. the net surfaces polish the ball too much, so im constantly keeping my fingers wet, and i think it just results in them being too sticky in the end.

i spoke with the other leggie about his seam position, and im not sure he does scramble it. he just has a more consistent wrist position than mine for finding the seam. he doesnt turn it as big as i do, but he always turns it. hes got a good googly too, but he said he had googly syndrome a year or 2 ago, so now he only ever bowls the googly on sundays, or a VERY occasional one in the nets. a lot of the time though he struggles for wickets because he beats the bat, but misses the edge or the stumps because it turns too much. on the other hand, my natural line just outside leg stump means that when i do get turn, it almost always gets me the wicket. but if it doesnt turn its just asking to be hit.

also, i bowled one particularly standout delivery. i bowled to a plan, and succeeded!! i was bowling decent leg breaks over the wicket, pitched around leg, fairly full. the batsman was defending them ok with a straight defence, hitting the odd one, but he was looking comfortable enough. so i went around the wicket, really wide on the crease. my theory was that he would try to play it straight still, but the extra angle plus turn would hopefully find the outside edge. i landed it just outside leg stump but the natural line if it hadnt turned would have taken it to hit middle, and it was really pitched up and a fast ball, he tried to defend it and it found the outside edge perfectly. its the first "dismissal" i can put down to actually having a plan and executing it.

so overall ive made a massive step forwards this week. at least 4 people commented on my bowling, but all said that the consistency needs to improve. basically if i could bowl a good one 5 out of 6 id probably be taking 3+ wickets a game. also my pace is right up and still getting the turn and good length, i reckon i was at mid to high 40's tonight, with an occasional 50. but thats just guessing. much faster than the other leggies though.

on a negative note, ive got a left shin injury of some description and its killing me. it hurts to walk on it, so i think i need to get it looked at asap. i dont want to hinder my twice-weekly practices now that im making serious progress.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had a blinding session this evening. well, the first hour at least. first batsman up was the other full time leg spinner, and hes a handy batsman as well. he punished most of my deliveries last week, but this week went a lot better. i bowled a few looseners, then i bowled 6 deliveries back to back, all absolutely on the money (basically the same as i bowl in my videos), on a great length, turning huge, bouncing, drifting and dipping. everything.

he gloved the first one to slip. then edged the next 3 to slip. defended one, then edged another. all 5 were definite wickets (assuming the slip fielder wasnt useless), its without a doubt the best ive ever bowled. by a long way. then i faded away a bit. so i moved net lanes to have a go at a leftie. i was struggling for line a bit, but not for turn, for the first 30 mins it was absolutely ripping. i was landing the ball about 3 feet outside off stump (no exaggeration, it was too wide to hit before it turned!), OFF THE MATS on the carpet floor surface, and turning it back in over off stump with huge bounce lol. the first ball he was going to leave, and it came back in and hit him in the chest. he couldnt play any shots off it, but it wasnt really threatening a wicket.

throughout the session i faded away, i bowled probably 40 first rate deliveries all night, and probably 60 shocking ones (drag downs mostly). but when i got it right it was seriously good. i dont like to overstate myself too much or come across as cocky, but they were genuinely international wicket taking deliveries. completely unplayable. i think of the 40 or so good ones i bowled, about 20 would have had wickets.

i also bowled at the back foot player ive been mentioning. he didnt cream me today like usual, i was just pitching it further and further up under his nose until he came forward. i got him to come forward to one and he edged to slip! i got him with one that he thought he should play back, but it was too full for that, and he only just blocked it, and the bottom of his bat would have taken the bails off if there had been any! his foot almost touched the base of the stumps. he was THAT close. which gives a good idea of how deep he plays. the answer was simply to pitch it about a yard outside his crease. that was the start of my form disappearing though, because i struggled to adjust my length back again afterwards.

i think for the first time ever my fingers fatigued! by the last 20 mins i was really struggling to release the ball, lots of drag downs. the net surfaces polish the ball too much, so im constantly keeping my fingers wet, and i think it just results in them being too sticky in the end.

i spoke with the other leggie about his seam position, and im not sure he does scramble it. he just has a more consistent wrist position than mine for finding the seam. he doesnt turn it as big as i do, but he always turns it. hes got a good googly too, but he said he had googly syndrome a year or 2 ago, so now he only ever bowls the googly on sundays, or a VERY occasional one in the nets. a lot of the time though he struggles for wickets because he beats the bat, but misses the edge or the stumps because it turns too much. on the other hand, my natural line just outside leg stump means that when i do get turn, it almost always gets me the wicket. but if it doesnt turn its just asking to be hit.

also, i bowled one particularly standout delivery. i bowled to a plan, and succeeded!! i was bowling decent leg breaks over the wicket, pitched around leg, fairly full. the batsman was defending them ok with a straight defence, hitting the odd one, but he was looking comfortable enough. so i went around the wicket, really wide on the crease. my theory was that he would try to play it straight still, but the extra angle plus turn would hopefully find the outside edge. i landed it just outside leg stump but the natural line if it hadnt turned would have taken it to hit middle, and it was really pitched up and a fast ball, he tried to defend it and it found the outside edge perfectly. its the first "dismissal" i can put down to actually having a plan and executing it.

so overall ive made a massive step forwards this week. at least 4 people commented on my bowling, but all said that the consistency needs to improve. basically if i could bowl a good one 5 out of 6 id probably be taking 3+ wickets a game. also my pace is right up and still getting the turn and good length, i reckon i was at mid to high 40's tonight, with an occasional 50. but thats just guessing. much faster than the other leggies though.

on a negative note, ive got a left shin injury of some description and its killing me. it hurts to walk on it, so i think i need to get it looked at asap. i dont want to hinder my twice-weekly practices now that im making serious progress.

I'm just about to write mine up as well, I'm going to get a cup of tea and have a read of yours first. I'll be back to comment no doubt......

I've just suffered from a Knee twinge tonight that I thought may have put paid to the rest of the night, but it eased up. I put mine down to the fact that I've been stuck indoors since October and not been able to get out and bowl and what with bowling twice today it's a caused some pain, I reckon I'll be stiff tomorrow. I bowled okay tonight pretty much in the same way as earlier on. A good lesson was learned tonight on the need to watch the bats you're going to be bowling against, again one of those really obvious things, but something I tend to neglect as I'm pretty much fully focussed on fielding when I'm not bowling. We've got a big bloke in our team who uses a bat that weighs 4lb it's almost as thick as it is wide and being as big as he is, this blokes not that agile and he's just gagging for any ball that goes down the off-side. If he makes contact with it which he does down the off-side - he almost knocks bricks out of the wall at the end of the net. But then my ex capatin Neil said bowl at his legs or threaten leg stump and sure enough he's not agile enough to get to the ball and the bats too big to manouvre too, so as soon as we all did that he was redundant, which was interesting. Again it's just a case of observing the batsman prior to your over or trying him out when you bowl. Other than that I think I pretty much bowled everyone out that I had to bowl at in my net in one way or another and they're all 2nd XI players, so that was pretty good, the prospects for the start of the season look good with what I've already got in my armoury, got some work to do with the back-spinning flipper as that's very erratic.

I think considering how potentially unfit I am and the fact that I'm still suffering from this plantar faciitis condition I'm doing okay. Like Jim because I've been giving the ball a big flick today with the big leg break I've got sore joints and muscles in my fingers!

Good to hear that you're putting the ball down the off-side looking for that edge Jim, I reckon with your speed, bounce and turn that's where you're going to pick up most of your wickets.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i



i also bowled at the back foot player ive been mentioning. he didnt cream me today like usual, i was just pitching it further and further up under his nose until he came forward. i got him to come forward to one and he edged to slip! i got him with one that he thought he should play back, but it was too full for that, and he only just blocked it, and the bottom of his bat would have taken the bails off if there had been any! his foot almost touched the base of the stumps. he was THAT close. which gives a good idea of how deep he plays. the answer was simply to pitch it about a yard outside his crease. that was the start of my form disappearing though, because i struggled to adjust my length back again afterwards.





.

Sounds like you've got him sussed. There is only so far and so often he can play back. In a game you would have eventually got him with those tactics probably.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sounds like you all are suffering from a bit of injury and still having good/decent results. I had a fairly good net day 2 nets, 4 and a half hours in all first net went really well bowled pretty decent, second one i lost it a bit after a decent start was absolutely knackered by the end. Really felt it this morning felt like i'd been hit by a train, lol. Leg breaks are coming out the right part of the hand again so i've sorted that.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

sounds like you all are suffering from a bit of injury and still having good/decent results. I had a fairly good net day 2 nets, 4 and a half hours in all first net went really well bowled pretty decent, second one i lost it a bit after a decent start was absolutely knackered by the end. Really felt it this morning felt like i'd been hit by a train, lol. Leg breaks are coming out the right part of the hand again so i've sorted that.

Yeah I feel wrecked, most of it though just feels like I've just put my body through too much exercise for the fitness level I'm currently at. The biggest worry is my foot/heel but I'm hoping to go and see someone about it this week, I've heard stories about people with the same condition ending up in wheelchairs for the rest of their lives as a consequence of not getting it sorted!!!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im not feeling too bad today, my aches and pains get less noticeable as i practice more. the same happened last year. but my shin area is really causing me problems. its still sore this morning, its definitely some kind of injury, not just an ache. i might see a physio about it because at present its not going to get better without rest and id like to avoid that if i can. maybe a physio can suggest an alternative.

my fingers and wrist didnt really ache or get sore, i just lost control of them more and more towards the end. it was like my right hand was becoming my left hand, i just lost dexterity. ive felt the tendons in my forearm tweak slightly the last 2 weeks. not painfully. im not sure if its a potential problem or not, but my forearm is definitely getting stronger and stronger all the time. my target last year was 1500rpm (having started at about 960rpm when i first got my camera), and i was only 25rpm away at the weekend! so the new target has to be 2000rpm this year. thats going to take some serious doing though.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im not feeling too bad today, my aches and pains get lets noticeable as i practice more. the same happened last year. but my shin area is really causing me problems. its still sore this morning, its definitely some kind of injury, not just an ache. i might see a physio about it because at present its not going to get better without rest and id like to avoid that if i can. maybe a physio can suggest an alternative.

Yeah I'm not as bad as I imagined I'd be I was expecting my lower back to be a bit sore and stiff but that's fine. My right knee feels slightly sore below the knee cap and that felt as though that was a result of coming out of the pivot action into the follow through, it may be I'm coming to an abrupt stop after the pivot rather than fading away? Arms and shoulders are good though.