Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Again the Slider comes in a variety of different variations, Warnes also described the slider as (1). a ball that is gripped in the same manner as leg break but then he bowls it in exactly the same way that seam bowler does except that seam is across rather than up. With this the ball skids through as noted by Jim when it hits the smooth part of the ball - but when it hits the seam it acts differently. (2). The Warne/Jenner technique in the Nicholas video and Jenners vids on the BBC and Coverdale - which is the out of the front of the hand spinning off the fingers. (3). The Grimmett/Philpott back-spinning slider which it could be argued is the 'real slider'.

As golden arm says he is the master of psycological games and maybe the zooter is just a slight variation of the slider and he just gives it a name to create confusion and fear?

Reviewing the Mark Nicholas video, he does bowl the slider as you described as type 2 - almost a lazy topspinning leg break rather than the palmed seamer style delivery. My argument is that the only video I've ever seen where Warne himself mentions the zooter shows him demonstrating slider type 3 - the Grimmett type backspinner, rather than what other people think of as the zooter - i.e. the palmed seamer-style slider.

 

[blazet]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Howzit wrist spin buddies

I'v started playing club cricket again, hav'nt played since 2001 lol.
Back in the day I could bowl a mean leg breaker using 4 fingers
Iv changed my technique these days use 3 fingers instead, the ball doesn't
Spin as much as before but I'm consistant, atleast the ball goes where
I want it to go.Is there anyway that I could check out what my seam
is doing through the air as its bein deliverd from my hand?

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the Zooter is what Philpott calls a backspun round the loop slider. if you watch a video about Warnes 10 favourite dismissals i seem to recall there being at least 3 that looked like straight breaks that werent flippers. they had all the characteristics of a "zooter". there is another video of Warne, i think it may be against south africa, where again there are plenty of "zooter" looking dismissals.

myself and macca discussed it quite a while ago, and were both of the opinion that Warne took a great deal of wickets with his zooter earlier in his career before he really started to use the flipper, many of which were not credited correctly (and once his flipper came along, EVERYTHING straight was a flipper according to commentary, so then none got credited at all).

i may change my name for it to Zooter as well, just because it sounds cooler, and it differentiates me from other leggies who call their arm ball a slider. the Zooter is a hard delivery to bowl, i doubt many leggies have ever mastered it. i certainly havent got it anywhere close to mastered, i can occasionally bowl it. but i want to develop it much further this year. at present my basic leg break technique is of more importance though. variations are fun, but im starting to see what a good leg break and natural variation can do to batsmen, and its making me less desperate to work on variations.

this is the busiest this thread has been in ages good to see all of the faces reappearing after winter hibernation.

Yeah exactly! so its just a slider ( a la philpott, what would we do without that book?) which he's given another name to. same delivery innit. i would debate that he bowled any sliders as early as south africa in 94. i haven't watched that vid for a while but i remember seeing a few obvious flippers and toppies. nothing like the delivery which became his exclusive straight one post operation. Just watched that best of vid as well and can't see any sliders at all.all his straight ones come from under the hand in the early years and everything in the latter years is barely distinguishable from the hand from a leg break. indicating it is the [impossible] philpott slider. (only delivery I just cannot seem to bowl deliberately, has anyone had any genuine success with it?). he does seem to have resurrected the flipper for the IPL last year. Wish he'd come out of retirement for a few more tests! oh and has anyone here read the Bob Woolmer Art and Science of Cricket tome?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Howzit wrist spin buddies

I'v started playing club cricket again, hav'nt played since 2001 lol.
Back in the day I could bowl a mean leg breaker using 4 fingers
Iv changed my technique these days use 3 fingers instead, the ball doesn't
Spin as much as before but I'm consistant, atleast the ball goes where
I want it to go.Is there anyway that I could check out what my seam
is doing through the air as its bein deliverd from my hand?

Yeah you'll need a Casio Exilim EX FC100 YouTube - Casio Exilim EX-FC100 Tricking Heimsheim here in the UK they're about 140 of our English pounds. You'll need a tripod as well.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah exactly! so its just a slider ( a la philpott, what would we do without that book?) which he's given another name to. same delivery innit. i would debate that he bowled any sliders as early as south africa in 94. i haven't watched that vid for a while but i remember seeing a few obvious flippers and toppies. nothing like the delivery which became his exclusive straight one post operation. Just watched that best of vid as well and can't see any sliders at all.all his straight ones come from under the hand in the early years and everything in the latter years is barely distinguishable from the hand from a leg break. indicating it is the [impossible] philpott slider. (only delivery I just cannot seem to bowl deliberately, has anyone had any genuine success with it?). he does seem to have resurrected the flipper for the IPL last year. Wish he'd come out of retirement for a few more tests! oh and has anyone here read the Bob Woolmer Art and Science of Cricket tome?

Yeah I've got the Woolmer book, I've read some of it, it's got some good stuff within it's pages.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

And just to really confuse us, here's a quote from this link (Next year's Test dates, and other FAQs | Sport | guardian.co.uk)
about the zooter:



Now that sounds the front of the hand slider!

I think even philpott names this as a kind of weak backspinner, palmed out of the front of the hand. This man bowled it himself WWOS - video

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

so now i have to come up with a new name for my hypothetical delivery, because otherwise it will get even more confusing. ive never managed to bowl one properly though, so maybe there is no need for a name at all lol. i also dont know whether it has anything to offer. but in theory if you apply horizontal spin with a horizontal seam (like a flying saucer) then it should behave in a similar way to Lasith Malinga's deliveries, but with more revs and less speed. so i reckon more flight movement, but still the same zip off the pitch.

When i first tried leg spinning, about 28 years ago, it was after reading a 1940's book by learie constantine, who gave a very vague description of what a leg break was. I had heard the BBC world service on the crackling short wave. It was a test match between England and Pakistan. Though I like England the name Abdul Qadir conjuring his magic really fired my imagination. I somehow got hold of a cricket ball and tried the leg break out. The result... a flying saucer. Seam parrallel to the ground. I had never seen cricket before nor had I had any idea what a leg break looked like. The flying saucer seemed the way a leg break was bowled to me.Forgot leg spin for the next 26 years or so, but I still felt the excitement at seeing that seam spinning thinking it was a leg break. Oh for 28 years less.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

When i first tried leg spinning, about 28 years ago, it was after reading a 1940's book by learie constantine, who gave a very vague description of what a leg break was. I had heard the BBC world service on the crackling short wave. It was a test match between England and Pakistan. Though I like England the name Abdul Qadir conjuring his magic really fired my imagination. I somehow got hold of a cricket ball and tried the leg break out. The result... a flying saucer. Seam parrallel to the ground. I had never seen cricket before nor had I had any idea what a leg break looked like. The flying saucer seemed the way a leg break was bowled to me.Forgot leg spin for the next 26 years or so, but I still felt the excitement at seeing that seam spinning thinking it was a leg break. Oh for 28 years less.

That'd just end up as an extreme in-swinger wouldn't it? Could be used as a surprise non-turning "big legbreak" if you could get the drift to look the same.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Is there anyway that I could check out what my seam
is doing through the air as its bein deliverd from my hand?

G'day mate. Apart from a camera like jim and dave you can get a wicketkeeper or another spinner to bowl to get them to watch your seam for you. Keep us posted how you're going with your legbreaks. Have you got a wrongun ?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

When i first tried leg spinning, about 28 years ago, it was after reading a 1940's book by learie constantine, who gave a very vague description of what a leg break was. I had heard the BBC world service on the crackling short wave. It was a test match between England and Pakistan. Though I like England the name Abdul Qadir conjuring his magic really fired my imagination. I somehow got hold of a cricket ball and tried the leg break out. The result... a flying saucer. Seam parrallel to the ground. I had never seen cricket before nor had I had any idea what a leg break looked like. The flying saucer seemed the way a leg break was bowled to me.Forgot leg spin for the next 26 years or so, but I still felt the excitement at seeing that seam spinning thinking it was a leg break. Oh for 28 years less.

Jesus - that sounds like a freak ball - wouldn't that either dip or hold a line because it's a swing ball bowled on it's side? Yeah and you'd probably need a Malinga type action to bowl it?

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jesus - that sounds like a freak ball - wouldn't that either dip or hold a line because it's a swing ball bowled on it's side? Yeah and you'd probably need a Malinga type action to bowl it?

i already bowl it occasionally its a really weird ball, i don't think it drifts much but it seems to skid on mostly if you release it perfectly straight but can turn like a leggie or a googly depending on whether you release it slightly up or down, its mainly a good mystery ball to bowl occasionally. Its not hard o bowl either just flick your writ round the side of the ball instead of over it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i already bowl it occasionally its a really weird ball, i don't think it drifts much but it seems to skid on mostly if you release it perfectly straight but can turn like a leggie or a googly depending on whether you release it slightly up or down, its mainly a good mystery ball to bowl occasionally. Its not hard o bowl either just flick your writ round the side of the ball instead of over it.

Yes, I think you are right Matt. I do not recall it swinging, though at the time i would not have had much of an idea of what that was. My recollection was that it skidded, probably as it hit the smooth surface and did not grip. As regards swing now I am under the impression you need backspin, a good seam position, and possibly a shinier side than the other. I do not think it does anything special. It goes straight, so a leg break not hitting the seam does the trick just as handily.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I think even philpott names this as a kind of weak backspinner, palmed out of the front of the hand. This man bowled it himself WWOS - video

Do you think you could link it to your leg spin blog dave? The reason is that people can get to see how different each leggie is from another. I actually quite like his action. And while at it could you add this as well? British Pathe - CAMERA INTERVIEWS - TICH FREEMAN . Thanks

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Do you think you could link it to your leg spin blog dave? The reason is that people can get to see how different each leggie is from another. I actually quite like his action. And while at it could you add this as well? British Pathe - CAMERA INTERVIEWS - TICH FREEMAN . Thanks

This is terrific stuff! look at Tich go, leg spin hasn't really changed in almost a century has it? I wish there was something like this for Tiger O'Reilly. What video is that WWOS link supposed to go to? I think its now going to the wrong thing. If you check out the link below at 2.05 you can see an aussie leggie i've always liked called cullen bailey, there's only one or two deliveries but its something to look at.

YouTube - Weet-Bix Sheffield Shield Redbacks v Bushrangers - day 4

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

N.B thats not Cullen Bailey at all!!My mistake, its blatently Bryce McGain.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

This is terrific stuff! look at Tich go, leg spin hasn't really changed in almost a century has it? I wish there was something like this for Tiger O'Reilly. What video is that WWOS link supposed to go to? I think its now going to the wrong thing. If you check out the link below at 2.05 you can see an aussie leggie i've always liked called cullen bailey, there's only one or two deliveries but its something to look at.

YouTube - Weet-Bix Sheffield Shield Redbacks v Bushrangers - day 4

Sorry about that,they seem to have changed the link since yesterday. Try the vault on that site. There is Bob Holland known as dutchie taking 11 west indian wickets for australia in the 80's.

Never found footage of O'Reilly except a few deliveries in a test match. Try that site british pathe and search o'reilly cricket. Very little comes up. I trust you have seen daves site which has 2 clips of grimmett bowling, one front on and one with a wicket keeper. Tich apparently was the 2nd greatest wicket taker in county cricket if i am not mistaken. He took 200 wickets in one season more than once!

By the way Rashid destroyed the english side playing for the lions, and mishra took 2 of 3 s african wickets. So all in all a good day for leggies.

About mcgain, we were all for him but he was dropped quickly by the aussies after being battered in 1 test match. He had been returning from shoulder surgery. Not typical of australia to lose patience so quickly.

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Sorry about that,they seem to have changed the link since yesterday. Try the vault on that site. There is Bob Holland known as dutchie taking 11 west indian wickets for australia in the 80's.

Never found footage of O'Reilly except a few deliveries in a test match. Try that site british pathe and search o'reilly cricket. Very little comes up. I trust you have seen daves site which has 2 clips of grimmett bowling, one front on and one with a wicket keeper. Tich apparently was the 2nd greatest wicket taker in county cricket if i am not mistaken. He took 200 wickets in one season more than once!

By the way Rashid destroyed the english side playing for the lions, and mishra took 2 of 3 s african wickets. So all in all a good day for leggies.

About mcgain, we were all for him but he was dropped quickly by the aussies after being battered in 1 test match. He had been returning from shoulder surgery. Not typical of australia to lose patience so quickly.

I can't find that bob holland video anywhere on that site. bloody awful cataloguing system they have on there. any idea what the video was called? or better yet can you post a new link! Great to see Rashid bowling well, perhaps England should send the Lions in their stead for 20/20 games? The England bowling must have been dire, sidebottom should be dropped for good. its painful watching him lumber in like a sack of spuds.

On mcgain, i thought he should have been given another game at the very least. It's going to be very interesting seeing Steve Smith bowl in the ODI on friday, can't wait.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

By the way Rashid destroyed the english side playing for the lions,

Yeah, and curiously one of the umpires was a certain "Mohammad Ali"...

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Do you think you could link it to your leg spin blog dave? The reason is that people can get to see how different each leggie is from another. I actually quite like his action. And while at it could you add this as well? British Pathe - CAMERA INTERVIEWS - TICH FREEMAN . Thanks

Tich Freeman does the right foot shuffle the same as me as he goes into the delivery!! Yeah I'll link the Tich Freeman to the leg break blog but the WWOS took me to a story about an Abo' playing for the Aussies?

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling

Starts off as a interesting little piece which just summarises the basic physics then rather hilariously the guy who writes this goes on to doubt the existence of the flipper in the same way we have been doubting the zooter. i think the people who populate this forum are actually far better informed than many of these so-called experts. He starts off well, asserting his desire to dismiss the 'mysteries' of leg spin and deconstruct it scientifically but then he fails to acknowledge the existence of the bloody flipper! its so obvious to the naked eye I wonder how he has managed to miss it. fair enough with the slider, its so hard to discern. But its berks like him that perpetuate the misunderstandings in the first place. how can he claim to know anything about leg spin without being able to distinguish between a slider and a flipper?!