Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Here's a little 7 fer against the WI from Stuart MacGill I found lying around as well...

YouTube - AUSTRALIA vs WEST INDIES, 2000/2001 5th TEST, SCG, 1st INN

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling

Starts off as a interesting little piece which just summarises the basic physics then rather hilariously the guy who writes this goes on to doubt the existence of the flipper in the same way we have been doubting the zooter. i think the people who populate this forum are actually far better informed than many of these so-called experts. He starts off well, asserting his desire to dismiss the 'mysteries' of leg spin and deconstruct it scientifically but then he fails to acknowledge the existence of the bloody flipper! its so obvious to the naked eye I wonder how he has managed to miss it. fair enough with the slider, its so hard to discern. But its berks like him that perpetuate the misunderstandings in the first place. how can he claim to know anything about leg spin without being able to distinguish between a slider and a flipper?!

But surely if someone out there claiming to be an expert dismisses the existence of a ball many leg-spinners can bowl, that's in the interests of the leg-spin bowlers, no?

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

But surely if someone out there claiming to be an expert dismisses the existence of a ball many leg-spinners can bowl, that's in the interests of the leg-spin bowlers, no?

You're not wrong! I want every batsman in the world to believe that the flipper is a figment of the leggies imagination. that said its not terribly helpful for the beginner leg spinner like yourself trying to learn all the deliveries if he's being told a key one of them doesn't even exist! rest assured, it does.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling

Starts off as a interesting little piece which just summarises the basic physics then rather hilariously the guy who writes this goes on to doubt the existence of the flipper in the same way we have been doubting the zooter. i think the people who populate this forum are actually far better informed than many of these so-called experts. He starts off well, asserting his desire to dismiss the 'mysteries' of leg spin and deconstruct it scientifically but then he fails to acknowledge the existence of the bloody flipper! its so obvious to the naked eye I wonder how he has managed to miss it. fair enough with the slider, its so hard to discern. But its berks like him that perpetuate the misunderstandings in the first place. how can he claim to know anything about leg spin without being able to distinguish between a slider and a flipper?!

its a bit of a nonsense article really. not particularly clearly worded for a beginner, and there is a lot of misinformation. flight outweights turn off the pitch the majority of the time. the more you flight a ball, the higher it will bounce, irrespective of anything else. flatter trajectory will stay lower. backspin should in theory bounce higher, whilst top spin should in theory stay lower. yet the complete opposite is observed with the topspinner and flipper. the top spinner dips in flight, hence the added bounce. the flipper is delivered flatter and carries in flight, hence it skids through lower. in theory, the best flipper wouldnt even land on the seam, you only want the seam position for maximum hang-time in flight, off the pitch it would be better if it hit a smooth surface to stay even lower! according to that article though the flipper should bounce higher and the topspinner should zip through low. that simply isnt what happens.

the problem with that article is that it didnt address flight and the magnus effect. it made some really unclear statements about car tyres, and the author didnt even attempt to address the physics of flight and spin (despite claiming that physics was the basis of the article), and it was just confusing for anyone new to it.

to doubt whether Warne has ever bowled a flipper is a little silly. however, the article was written in the late 90's it would seem, and to be fair, with television technology how it was and Warnes own mind games and poor explanations of his deliveries it may have been there to question. now of course we have much more knowledge of Warnes deliveries. but Philpott had already written his excellent book on the subject at the time of that article, so there really isnt an excuse for getting it wrong.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

its a bit of a nonsense article really. not particularly clearly worded for a beginner, and there is a lot of misinformation. flight outweights turn off the pitch the majority of the time. the more you flight a ball, the higher it will bounce, irrespective of anything else. flatter trajectory will stay lower. backspin should in theory bounce higher, whilst top spin should in theory stay lower. yet the complete opposite is observed with the topspinner and flipper. the top spinner dips in flight, hence the added bounce. the flipper is delivered flatter and carries in flight, hence it skids through lower. in theory, the best flipper wouldnt even land on the seam, you only want the seam position for maximum hang-time in flight, off the pitch it would be better if it hit a smooth surface to stay even lower! according to that article though the flipper should bounce higher and the topspinner should zip through low. that simply isnt what happens.

the problem with that article is that it didnt address flight and the magnus effect. it made some really unclear statements about car tyres, and the author didnt even attempt to address the physics of flight and spin (despite claiming that physics was the basis of the article), and it was just confusing for anyone new to it.

to doubt whether Warne has ever bowled a flipper is a little silly. however, the article was written in the late 90's it would seem, and to be fair, with television technology how it was and Warnes own mind games and poor explanations of his deliveries it may have been there to question. now of course we have much more knowledge of Warnes deliveries. but Philpott had already written his excellent book on the subject at the time of that article, so there really isnt an excuse for getting it wrong.

Yeah that's a ridiculous article and it's mentioned in my Flipper blog, how it managed to get on Cricinfo I don't know.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling

Starts off as a interesting little piece which just summarises the basic physics then rather hilariously the guy who writes this goes on to doubt the existence of the flipper in the same way we have been doubting the zooter. i think the people who populate this forum are actually far better informed than many of these so-called experts. He starts off well, asserting his desire to dismiss the 'mysteries' of leg spin and deconstruct it scientifically but then he fails to acknowledge the existence of the bloody flipper! its so obvious to the naked eye I wonder how he has managed to miss it. fair enough with the slider, its so hard to discern. But its berks like him that perpetuate the misunderstandings in the first place. how can he claim to know anything about leg spin without being able to distinguish between a slider and a flipper?!

Apart from the flipper I think another trick he's missed is that in dealing with the magnus effect he's assumed that the ball flies horizontally out of the bowler's hand and continues horizontally. It doesn't. As any fule know, it will travel diagonally upwards out of the hand, be travelling diagonally downwards by the time it hits the pitch, and only travel horizontally for a split second somewhere in the middle. That means that despite what he says, a pure leg-break (i.e. with the axis of rotation pointing horizontally straight down the wicket) will drift slightly to the left (as the bowler looks at it) as it rises, and drift to the right as it falls. The steeper it falls, the greater the effect, so the effect is greatest just before the ball lands, hence "late" drift.

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

its a bit of a nonsense article really. not particularly clearly worded for a beginner, and there is a lot of misinformation. flight outweights turn off the pitch the majority of the time. the more you flight a ball, the higher it will bounce, irrespective of anything else. flatter trajectory will stay lower. backspin should in theory bounce higher, whilst top spin should in theory stay lower. yet the complete opposite is observed with the topspinner and flipper. the top spinner dips in flight, hence the added bounce. the flipper is delivered flatter and carries in flight, hence it skids through lower. in theory, the best flipper wouldnt even land on the seam, you only want the seam position for maximum hang-time in flight, off the pitch it would be better if it hit a smooth surface to stay even lower! according to that article though the flipper should bounce higher and the topspinner should zip through low. that simply isnt what happens.



I forgot to mention that bit, I was waiting for the argument to about face but it never did. I do have a strange variation I rarely bowl which gets an odd amount of bounce and goes totally against your theory of flight = bounce. It's a googly bowled very round arm, flat and fast and it sort of rears up into the rib cage of the right handed batsman. i've not pulled it off often but it always surprises the people I get it to work against. I should add i've only every used this in the nets and the mats are quite hard. so that combined with the overspin and the extra pace probably accounts for some of it. it is a bit of a weird one though.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge - your knackered shoulder is your non-bowling shoulder?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

its a bit of a nonsense article really. not particularly clearly worded for a beginner, and there is a lot of misinformation. flight outweights turn off the pitch the majority of the time. the more you flight a ball, the higher it will bounce, irrespective of anything else. flatter trajectory will stay lower. backspin should in theory bounce higher, whilst top spin should in theory stay lower. yet the complete opposite is observed with the topspinner and flipper. the top spinner dips in flight, hence the added bounce. the flipper is delivered flatter and carries in flight, hence it skids through lower. in theory, the best flipper wouldnt even land on the seam, you only want the seam position for maximum hang-time in flight, off the pitch it would be better if it hit a smooth surface to stay even lower! according to that article though the flipper should bounce higher and the topspinner should zip through low. that simply isnt what happens.



I forgot to mention that bit, I was waiting for the argument to about face but it never did. I do have a strange variation I rarely bowl which gets an odd amount of bounce and goes totally against your theory of flight = bounce. It's a googly bowled very round arm, flat and fast and it sort of rears up into the rib cage of the right handed batsman. i've not pulled it off often but it always surprises the people I get it to work against. I should add i've only every used this in the nets and the mats are quite hard. so that combined with the overspin and the extra pace probably accounts for some of it. it is a bit of a weird one though.

Hmmmm Flippers and bounce - sometimes they skid sometimes they do bounce, yeah you're right if you could bowl your flipper that landed on the smooth surface that would be a very low skiddy ball. But a seam up Flipper as mine are do have a tendency sometimes do bounce up - again if you do this indoors with a variety of balls with different grip properties you'll observe that sometimes as the forward energy is suddenly negated by the back-spin the ball sits up.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge - your knackered shoulder is your non-bowling shoulder?

Previously I'd injured my non-bowling shoulder, now I've injured my bowling shoulder... Just shows how much I need to strengthen this rotator cuff muscles!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Previously I'd injured my non-bowling shoulder, now I've injured my bowling shoulder... Just shows how much I need to strengthen this rotator cuff muscles!

I take it your jobs like mine in that it's not manual and therefore you get very little exercise?

Anyone watching the India - Sth Africe games http://cricket-online.tv/south-africa-tours-india-test-odi-highlights-2010/ it's a good un. Paul Harris is bowling a really negative line and keeps being given as wide yet he still carries on. Some interesting things have happened as well - what's the score when you're batting and you mis-hit the ball and it goes straight up. The rule seems to be you can't touch it with your hand but you can hit it with the bat or your foot or I'm assuming any other part of your body e.g you could head it with your helmet football style? But are there rules regarding stopping it coming down on the stumps using your bat e.g. I nearly had my face and hands smashed in by my son when I went to catch such a ball that had come off his bat and gone straight up whilst wicket keeping, he perceived that it was going to come down on his stumps and swung at it fast and almost hit me? Can you hit it that hard and if you did and it went for 4 would that counts as runs?

Another thing I saw in this game is that Dhoni towards the end of the match on day 3 (I think) knowing that he was about to declare in between overs went part of the way down the pitch and started to kick and scuff up the wicket on one side. The commentator noted that a couple of the South Africans were watching looking a bit miffed and the umpire wasn't bothered, the commentator said that what he was doing was possibly roughing it up for Mishra to bowl into during the South African innings. Is that okay to do that?

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah that's a ridiculous article and it's mentioned in my Flipper blog, how it managed to get on Cricinfo I don't know.

have to agree it really is a silly article and still shows that there is so much ignorance about leg spin especially which does hinder new leggies but it can't be a bad thing if the batsmen don't know what your bowling.

Have nets tomorrow and been selected for an indoor uni game sunday which should be fun, currently fretting organising my clubs sunday fixtures, lol.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I take it your jobs like mine in that it's not manual and therefore you get very little exercise?

Correct... It's all paperwork and meetings.

what's the score when you're batting and you mis-hit the ball and it goes straight up. The rule seems to be you can't touch it with your hand but you can hit it with the bat or your foot or I'm assuming any other part of your body e.g you could head it with your helmet football style? But are there rules regarding stopping it coming down on the stumps using your bat e.g. I nearly had my face and hands smashed in by my son when I went to catch such a ball that had come off his bat and gone straight up whilst wicket keeping, he perceived that it was going to come down on his stumps and swung at it fast and almost hit me? Can you hit it that hard and if you did and it went for 4 would that counts as runs?

I refer you to Law 34.3:

Solely in order to guard his wicket and before the ball has been touched by a fielder, the striker may lawfully strike the ball more than once with his bat or with any part of his person other than a hand not holding the bat.
Notwithstanding this provision, the striker may not prevent the ball from being caught by making more than one stroke in defence of his wicket. See Law 37.3 (Obstructing a ball from being caught).

Furthermore only overthrows are scoreable, and only if the batsman was either playing a shot or defending his body on the first strike.

Another thing I saw in this game is that Dhoni towards the end of the match on day 3 (I think) knowing that he was about to declare in between overs went part of the way down the pitch and started to kick and scuff up the wicket on one side. The commentator noted that a couple of the South Africans were watching looking a bit miffed and the umpire wasn't bothered, the commentator said that what he was doing was possibly roughing it up for Mishra to bowl into during the South African innings. Is that okay to do that?

That is totally and utterly NOT ok... Law 42:

14. Batsman damaging the pitch
(a) If either batsman causes avoidable damage to the pitch, at the first instance the umpire shall, when the ball is dead,
(i) caution the batsman. This caution shall continue to apply throughout the innings. The umpire shall so inform each incoming batsman.
(ii) inform the other umpire, the other batsman, the captain of the fielding side and, as soon as practicable, the captain of the batting side.

(b) If there is a second instance of avoidable damage to the pitch by any batsman in that innings
(i) the umpire shall repeat the above procedure, indicating that this is a final warning.
(ii) additionally he shall disallow all runs to the batting side from that delivery other than the penalty for a No ball or a Wide, if applicable. The batsmen shall return to their original ends.

(c) If there is any further avoidable damage to the pitch by any batsman in that innings, the umpire shall, when the ball is dead,
(i) disallow all runs to the batting side from that delivery other than the penalty for a No ball or a Wide, if applicable. The batsmen shall return to their original ends.
(ii) additionally award 5 penalty runs to the fielding side. See 17 below.
(iii) inform the other umpire, the other batsman, the captain of the fielding side and, as soon as practicable, the captain of the batting side of what has occurred.
(iv) report the occurrence, with the other umpire, as soon as possible to the Executive of the batting side and any Governing Body responsible for the match, who shall take such action as is considered appropriate against the captain and player or players concerned.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Apart from the flipper I think another trick he's missed is that in dealing with the magnus effect he's assumed that the ball flies horizontally out of the bowler's hand and continues horizontally. It doesn't. As any fule know, it will travel diagonally upwards out of the hand, be travelling diagonally downwards by the time it hits the pitch, and only travel horizontally for a split second somewhere in the middle. That means that despite what he says, a pure leg-break (i.e. with the axis of rotation pointing horizontally straight down the wicket) will drift slightly to the left (as the bowler looks at it) as it rises, and drift to the right as it falls. The steeper it falls, the greater the effect, so the effect is greatest just before the ball lands, hence "late" drift.

that is also exactly what i observe when i get the ball drifting. the ball will often do nothing at all until it starts to fall out of its flight, i even have it on video.

YouTube - Wrist Spin Overspun Leg Break - Huge Drift and Bounce

you can see that the ball basically just follows its line (angled across the imaginary RH batsman slightly) until it starts to fall, and then it moves massively the closer it gets to the ground.

id never really put 2 and 2 together on this before now. in theory with a perfectly square seam, there would be no drift at all on a horizontally travelling ball! its the fact that what goes up must come down that imparts the drift. late drift is great, because most batsman commit to a line and length long before the ball starts to drop. this is especially true the faster you bowl, because they have less time to react.

thinking in terms of forward velocity - if you bowl slowly then you have no choice but to deliver the ball higher into the air in order to land it on the same length as if you bowl more quickly. so the ball spends more time going up, and less time coming down. the faster you bowl, the flatter the trajectory can be, and the ball spends more time coming down. you make the assumption that revs are the same (if anything, revs are likely to be higher on the faster ball). hence why faster leg spinners generate more drift than slower ones, perhaps? this is based on my own observations as ive added more and more speed to my deliveries.

also add to this equation that i myself am considered very tall for a leg spinner. but my height means i deliver the ball with less trajectory. add in the speed i bowl at (which i reckon is pushing 50mph easily, maybe over it), and it sets up ideal drifting conditions!!

forward velocity makes a substantial difference to vertical motion, such as dip or carry, since the air stream is constantly affecting the ball then, and always in the same direction (e.g. up or down) i think.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Do you think you could link it to your leg spin blog dave? The reason is that people can get to see how different each leggie is from another. I actually quite like his action. And while at it could you add this as well? British Pathe - CAMERA INTERVIEWS - TICH FREEMAN . Thanks

Look - here's my Tich Freeman shuffle....YouTube - someblokecalleddave Leg breaks

 

[strof]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi guys. i am after some advice from you learned gentleman concerning my son aged 13. he is primarily a batsman but he has been trying to bowl leg spin with my limited help since the end of august as his club has very little coaching and nobody to teach him leg spin. he has been unable to get a ball to turn in the conventional leg to off.

i have been visiting this forum since his interest and downloaded daves videos bought philpotts book etc.

the problem is this. he was at a durham ccc coaching course this week and the coach identified the problem as the fact that he bowls a perfect googly out of the back of his hand. the coach showed him the correct action and he knows what to do but he is now getting frustrated as he cant replicate it.

iam aware through this forum of problems of "reprogramming" the brain and the fact that he has in effect been bowling googlies non stop for 6 months!. any further advice would be appreciated

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi guys. i am after some advice from you learned gentleman concerning my son aged 13. he is primarily a batsman but he has been trying to bowl leg spin with my limited help since the end of august as his club has very little coaching and nobody to teach him leg spin. he has been unable to get a ball to turn in the conventional leg to off.

i have been visiting this forum since his interest and downloaded daves videos bought philpotts book etc.

the problem is this. he was at a durham ccc coaching course this week and the coach identified the problem as the fact that he bowls a perfect googly out of the back of his hand. the coach showed him the correct action and he knows what to do but he is now getting frustrated as he cant replicate it.

iam aware through this forum of problems of "reprogramming" the brain and the fact that he has in effect been bowling googlies non stop for 6 months!. any further advice would be appreciated

The way I overcame this problem was as follows.

No.1 - I stopped bowling in the manner that felt as though it should produce a Leg Break but always produced the googly.
No. 2 - Using the usual leg break grip 2 up 2 down finger configuration I stopped cocking the wrist and started bowling with a fairly vertical arm making sure that when the ball left the hand it did so primarily off the 3rd (Spinning) finger.
No. 3 - I focussed on making sure that the underside of the wrist as I released the ball was facing the batsman. It was this bit that felt wholly un-natural having bowled Googlies for more than 18 months, I can't impress on you how not right it felt because of the fact that my brain had been totally re-programmed so that the googly felt correct.
No. 4 - I eventually found turning the wrist even further so that it almost feels like you're producing a karate chop action then got the ball to turn more off the wicket.

I started this process in Sept 2008 and Easter 2009 with many hours persevering with this I got my wrist to come round and produce a leg break. I gave up on trying to hit the stumps. all I wanted was that after throwing my bucket of 18 balls towards the stumps most of them ended up on the Off-side behind the stumps, this started to happen 2 months after giving up bowling in the way I had been for the previous 18 months.

Drop all attempts at any of the other variations, just focus on the Leg Break and I reckon the key to it is that under-side of the wrist towards the batsman and the Karate chop position if that doesn't work.

One last thing - I still bowl with an action that feels to me like my wrist and hand come over and release the ball in the karate chop position - I don't know if in reality it does, so be wary of the fact that you might be telling him 'Think Karate Chop' and seeing a his hand coming through correctly - because like me it may feel to him that it's massively 'Karate Chop'. Be aware it might change quick or it might take months. A bloke who asked me about this on youtube sorted his in a matter of a week or so having bowled googly's for years. Good luck and keep in touch with the forum.

 

[strof]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

thanks dave i have printed off your reply and given it to him for some bedtime reading.

teenage tantrums are bad enough without the added frustration of leg breaks

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi guys. i am after some advice from you learned gentleman concerning my son aged 13. he is primarily a batsman but he has been trying to bowl leg spin with my limited help since the end of august as his club has very little coaching and nobody to teach him leg spin. he has been unable to get a ball to turn in the conventional leg to off.

i have been visiting this forum since his interest and downloaded daves videos bought philpotts book etc.

the problem is this. he was at a durham ccc coaching course this week and the coach identified the problem as the fact that he bowls a perfect googly out of the back of his hand. the coach showed him the correct action and he knows what to do but he is now getting frustrated as he cant replicate it.

iam aware through this forum of problems of "reprogramming" the brain and the fact that he has in effect been bowling googlies non stop for 6 months!. any further advice would be appreciated

You came to the right place to get advice. Lots of us have been through the same thing.

Starting with the grip is he holding the ball in the orthodox way ? sometimes incorrect grip helps produce the wrongun, especially with youngsters.

One way to learn the legbreak is to start off underarm, then roundarm and finally overarm. Philpott describes the drill. The best thing is, he can bowl a wrongun. He may lose it for a while as he masters the legbreak but he knows he can bowl the googly.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

thanks dave i have printed off your reply and given it to him for some bedtime reading.

teenage tantrums are bad enough without the added frustration of leg breaks

I've got that yet to come as mine are 8 and 11, the younger one is the worst at the moment he loses it when he can't get things right and has a tendency to sulk instead of listening and taking on board the fact that he simply needs to practice more! Hopefully he'll realise and decide with the encouragement of his club coaches that practice is the solution. He takes far more notice of them than he does me!