Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[strof]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the problem we have is that the club he plays for is very poor on the coaching side and i am is coach really. i have just used what i could off the internet e.g the woolmer videos for his batting and i think i have done a pretty good job but leg spin is way out of my league. he is really keen and he has been bowling in the college car park with me on a weekend with a tennis ball since christmas.

he really should be posting on here himself. but anyway i have enjoyed looking at the forum for the past 6 months or so and i will keep you informed how he gets on.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Its been a long hot cricket season and it still has a month to go for those teams that make the finals. We are starting to wind down a bit but my young bloke is still bowling 6 overs every other day.

His figures are now roughly 7 wickets. 40 overs. 140 runs. Fairly typical of a legspinner who bowls probably only one bad ball an over on average. His figures got knocked around, just like daves last season, by a couple of expensive spells, which every legbreaker goes through. If he can pick up 2 more wickets in the remaining couple of games it will get him in the top 10 for his comp. Just like jim, my son finds the better the opposition the more wickets he is likely to get.

We are shopping around for a new club for my son next season. One without a legspinner would be best. We have got a couple to pick from. We will wait and see how the comp finishes, then we can work out which club has the higher graded team. That ties in with what i was saying about jims observation, to a certain extent the better the batsman the more chance you have to get a wicket with good legspin.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I want to check out steve smiths one day debut on tv if it does not interfere with our training today. I was watching a replay on tv yesterday of his bowling in india from the champions league and his flipper is one of the best you will ever see. He has changed his run up and delivery somewhat since that series.

You really need to record it because the commentators and producers dont always show enough replays. The best is tony grieg at the moment , he makes them replay the spinners until he is satisfied he knows what ball it is. That makes it good for the viewer because you get to see the variations coming from the hand in slomo whenever grieg is in the commentary box. I still turn the sound down usually so i dont have to listen.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the problem we have is that the club he plays for is very poor on the coaching side and i am is coach really. i have just used what i could off the internet e.g the woolmer videos for his batting and i think i have done a pretty good job but leg spin is way out of my league. he is really keen and he has been bowling in the college car park with me on a weekend with a tennis ball since christmas.

he really should be posting on here himself. but anyway i have enjoyed looking at the forum for the past 6 months or so and i will keep you informed how he gets on.

I think everyone in cricket would acknowledge that here in the UK spin coaching is very poor and then if you narrow it down to Wrist Spin coaching it's almost non - existent. You should check out my blog at Wrist Spin Bowling over the spring and early summer period as there's a link there to Terry Jenners blog. He posts the dates when his leg spin coaching sessions are (July and August) when he comes over to pass on his knowledge to kids. I think he aims to get over here on a regular basis and it's connected with the ECB I think? I tried to get my younger son along last summer but the session coincided with our holiday and I think it's him that actually replies to your requests which is unusual.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I think everyone in cricket would acknowledge that here in the UK spin coaching is very poor and then if you narrow it down to Wrist Spin coaching it's almost non - existent. You should check out my blog at Wrist Spin Bowling over the spring and early summer period as there's a link there to Terry Jenners blog. He posts the dates when his leg spin coaching sessions are (July and August) when he comes over to pass on his knowledge to kids. I think he aims to get over here on a regular basis and it's connected with the ECB I think? I tried to get my younger son along last summer but the session coincided with our holiday and I think it's him that actually replies to your requests which is unusual.

I notice at his clinic he does in sydney at kingsgrove , you can pay to watch his clinic from the sideline. It is meant for coaches looking for insight into his methods.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Its been a long hot cricket season and it still has a month to go for those teams that make the finals. We are starting to wind down a bit but my young bloke is still bowling 6 overs every other day.

His figures are now roughly 7 wickets. 40 overs. 140 runs. Fairly typical of a legspinner who bowls probably only one bad ball an over on average. His figures got knocked around, just like daves last season, by a couple of expensive spells, which every legbreaker goes through. If he can pick up 2 more wickets in the remaining couple of games it will get him in the top 10 for his comp. Just like jim, my son finds the better the opposition the more wickets he is likely to get.

We are shopping around for a new club for my son next season. One without a legspinner would be best. We have got a couple to pick from. We will wait and see how the comp finishes, then we can work out which club has the higher graded team. That ties in with what i was saying about jims observation, to a certain extent the better the batsman the more chance you have to get a wicket with good legspin.

I went and saw Liz Ward today (Fitness and nutrition thread) about my foot problem and it turns out the problem is in my calf muscle. But we discussed my rotation YouTube - Someblokecalleddave leg breaks rotational analysis slow motion.avi and she made the point that I'd probably done so well this season because I was playing against not so good bats and that realistically I need to sort the rotation issue out as this will help me to spin the ball harder. If I could spin the ball harder I'd be more effective against far better batsmen and therefore I'd realise more of my potential, so I've got some new targets to aim for this season.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I went and saw Liz Ward today (Fitness and nutrition thread) about my foot problem and it turns out the problem is in my calf muscle. But we discussed my rotation YouTube - Someblokecalleddave leg breaks rotational analysis slow motion.avi and she made the point that I'd probably done so well this season because I was playing against not so good bats and that realistically I need to sort the rotation issue out as this will help me to spin the ball harder. If I could spin the ball harder I'd be more effective against far better batsmen and therefore I'd realise more of my potential, so I've got some new targets to aim for this season.

You had a great season last year. Why do you reckon you went so well ?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I notice at his clinic he does in sydney at kingsgrove , you can pay to watch his clinic from the sideline. It is meant for coaches looking for insight into his methods.

Yeah I was disappointed more becuase I reckon I'd have got a lot more from than my son, he would know Jenner from Skippy so it would have all been a bit over his head. I was even thinking of borrowing someone elses son as Joe was dubious because of his age, but it all fell through in the end because of the holiday clash.

There's a link here that Liz posted today where she's drawn my attention to the spinners in the background and their rotation Fast Bowling and Spin Programmes - National Cricket Performance Centre - ECB - ECB but the gist of the article is the acknowledgment that here in the UK they are beginning to take spinning a bit more seriously. But I see no Wrist spin coaches?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah I was disappointed more becuase I reckon I'd have got a lot more from than my son, he would know Jenner from Skippy so it would have all been a bit over his head. I was even thinking of borrowing someone elses son as Joe was dubious because of his age, but it all fell through in the end because of the holiday clash.

It works out a lot cheaper to watch in the audience then to enrol and some of the sessions he does are on a selection basis. They make a few extra bob and you get to watch what he is on about. But has he produced one outstanding spinner yet? He had a bit to do with Rashid early on.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

You had a great season last year. Why do you reckon you went so well ?

I think part of it was due to the captains reading my blog and agreeing with my 'Use the spinner early against the openers' as I bowled against openers and took wickets. Another thing was I took loads of wickets in the first 3 games (3 x 4-fers) and I reckon that was due to the fact that I don't stop practicing and maybe so early in the season the bats were still a bit rusty? I also seem to bowl better on damp wickets - I think Grimmett found this as well in England didn't he? The other thing was the accuracy and the off-stump line of attack.

But I have to concede when I then come across quality batsmen I do struggle at the minute and I reckon getting the ball to drift and turn more would take me up a step or two. If I bowl against my teams own top batsman I have to rely on a single tactic almost and it's a negtaive line and approach that primarily serves to restrict his run making (Leftie) although I did notice that he can't pick the wrong un and the wrong un comes off the bat and flies up towards mid wicket-short mid wicket area?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Another thing was I took loads of wickets in the first 3 games (3 x 4-fers) and I reckon that was due to the fact that I don't stop practicing and maybe so early in the season the bats were still a bit rusty?

I always used to get off to a flying start when i practised a lot in the off season. Lots of batsmen take a while to get rid of the cobwebs and nets dont help them much. I notice the exact same thing with my son. He trains all year and plays indoor in the offseason and has his best sucess early on in the season.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I always used to get off to a flying start when i practised a lot in the off season. Lots of batsmen take a while to get rid of the cobwebs and nets dont help them much. I notice the exact same thing with my son. He trains all year and plays indoor in the offseason and has his best sucess early on in the season.

Yeah I notice at nets the level of conviction amongst many of the bowlers is lacking, my mate 'Wizard' who can spin the ball big but has no accuracy was getting very frustrated with his bowling and for the last 2 sessions has been bowling seam up. Last week he was talking about giving up on leg spin having been trying it for the last 3 seasons. None of them as far as I know do anything more than turn up for nets, so with 4-6 blokes in each net possibly more over 2 hours along with the general cricket practice, they probably bowl 30 deliveries. Whereas we're all training as much as we can on here and I for one have a bowl before I even turn up for the match, so it's not surprising really that I did as well as I did at the start?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

That ties in with what i was saying about jims observation, to a certain extent the better the batsman the more chance you have to get a wicket with good legspin.

im not so sure now that its just about "good" batsmen, as there are some good batsmen that i cant even get close to getting out, but they play less conventional shots more often than not against spin (sweeps, pulls, cuts, etc, regardless of line and length). however, anyone that plays conventional straight-bat shots to leg spin is easy pickings to a "perfect" leg break delivery, especially if they like to plant their front foot early!! so il edit my opinion on that to be straight bat players, preferably those with heavy front feet. which generally do tend to be the better batsmen with a sound technique, but not always. because what makes them sitting ducks to leg spin actually makes them very strong against pace.

But I have to concede when I then come across quality batsmen I do struggle at the minute and I reckon getting the ball to drift and turn more would take me up a step or two. If I bowl against my teams own top batsman I have to rely on a single tactic almost and it's a negtaive line and approach that primarily serves to restrict his run making (Leftie) although I did notice that he can't pick the wrong un and the wrong un comes off the bat and flies up towards mid wicket-short mid wicket area?

i think the higher the quality of batsman, the more important pace on the ball can become. theres certainly no point in forcing it, as fast and straight is pointless. but up above 45mph youre giving the batsman very little time to react to turn and bounce on a decent length. whereas below about 40mph even a big turning ball can be played off the back foot on its merit (on a good length). pitching it right up only tends to work against the lower quality players, as good players will just use their feet. you end up leaving yourself an incredibly small area where you can pitch the ball and still cause problems through being aggressive (perfect length around middle stump, and it has to turn). otherwise you have to go for the "contain and frustrate" tactic and try to force a mistake. watch Paul Harris for S.Africa. hes a left arm finger spinner, but he is the most negative spinner ive ever seen, but it get him wickets (the crowd are asleep so they dont see them, but the scorecard tells them about it later).

but as you say, drift and turn can compensate for speed. drift especially. and youve already got control of your accuracy on the most part. whereas last season when i was bowling quite slowly i was just giving runs away. now with the added pace i can get away with it more, because im even hard to dispatch down the leg side with the pace and bounce i get on my bad balls lol. long hops tend to get smashed regardless.

Yeah I notice at nets the level of conviction amongst many of the bowlers is lacking, my mate 'Wizard' who can spin the ball big but has no accuracy was getting very frustrated with his bowling and for the last 2 sessions has been bowling seam up.

the young leggie at my club started bowling seam up last week. hes a very good leg spinner, but i think he gets frustrated by the number of deliveries that completely beat the batsman but turn too much to get a wicket. last season he was about 3rd or 4th on the clubs leading wicket takers though, despite that! i just said "what are you bowling seam for?", and about 5 mins later he was back to leg breaks and causing problems again. if youre not 100% commited to leg spin then its almost not worth bothering. there are going to be entire seasons of nothing but frustration at times, so if you cant deal with it for even a few weeks then youll struggle to stick it out. those first 2 weeks this year at nets i was spending the entire time angry, kicking the wall, grunting, etc lol. everyone probably thought i was mental, but i stuck at it anyway. now it seems like results are around the corner. ive never once even considered changing to seam bowling. mostly just because everyones a seam bowler, and i like to be unique. for the same reasons, i dont think a batsman that bowls a bit part-time can ever realistically be a top leg spinner at club level. youngsters can do it because they practice a lot more, but not adults.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the young leggie at my club started bowling seam up last week. hes a very good leg spinner, but i think he gets frustrated by the number of deliveries that completely beat the batsman but turn too much to get a wicket. last season he was about 3rd or 4th on the clubs leading wicket takers though, despite that! i just said "what are you bowling seam for?", and about 5 mins later he was back to leg breaks and causing problems again. if youre not 100% commited to leg spin then its almost not worth bothering. there are going to be entire seasons of nothing but frustration at times, so if you cant deal with it for even a few weeks then youll struggle to stick it out. those first 2 weeks this year at nets i was spending the entire time angry, kicking the wall, grunting, etc lol. everyone probably thought i was mental, but i stuck at it anyway. now it seems like results are around the corner. ive never once even considered changing to seam bowling. mostly just because everyones a seam bowler, and i like to be unique. for the same reasons, i dont think a batsman that bowls a bit part-time can ever realistically be a top leg spinner at club level. youngsters can do it because they practice a lot more, but not adults.

I think if you're a wrist spinner you've probably got something else about you that isn't conventional, you're less likely I reckon to follow the crowd and be a conformist. You're certainly not going to be a wrist spinner if you have a fickle nature and it probably suits people that have elements of obsessiveness - I for one have an obsessive nature to the point where it sometimes looks a bit like that condition that train spotters have (I can't remember it's name at the moment).

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I think if you're a wrist spinner you've probably got something else about you that isn't conventional, you're less likely I reckon to follow the crowd and be a conformist. You're certainly not going to be a wrist spinner if you have a fickle nature and it probably suits people that have elements of obsessiveness - I for one have an obsessive nature to the point where it sometimes looks a bit like that condition that train spotters have (I can't remember it's name at the moment).

A sense of humour is common to most legspinners down the years.

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im not so sure now that its just about "good" batsmen, as there are some good batsmen that i cant even get close to getting out, but they play less conventional shots more often than not against spin (sweeps, pulls, cuts, etc, regardless of line and length). however, anyone that plays conventional straight-bat shots to leg spin is easy pickings to a "perfect" leg break delivery, especially if they like to plant their front foot early!! so il edit my opinion on that to be straight bat players, preferably those with heavy front feet. which generally do tend to be the better batsmen with a sound technique, but not always. because what makes them sitting ducks to leg spin actually makes them very strong against pace.



i think the higher the quality of batsman, the more important pace on the ball can become. theres certainly no point in forcing it, as fast and straight is pointless. but up above 45mph youre giving the batsman very little time to react to turn and bounce on a decent length. whereas below about 40mph even a big turning ball can be played off the back foot on its merit (on a good length). pitching it right up only tends to work against the lower quality players, as good players will just use their feet. you end up leaving yourself an incredibly small area where you can pitch the ball and still cause problems through being aggressive (perfect length around middle stump, and it has to turn). otherwise you have to go for the "contain and frustrate" tactic and try to force a mistake. watch Paul Harris for S.Africa. hes a left arm finger spinner, but he is the most negative spinner ive ever seen, but it get him wickets (the crowd are asleep so they dont see them, but the scorecard tells them about it later).

but as you say, drift and turn can compensate for speed. drift especially. and youve already got control of your accuracy on the most part. whereas last season when i was bowling quite slowly i was just giving runs away. now with the added pace i can get away with it more, because im even hard to dispatch down the leg side with the pace and bounce i get on my bad balls lol. long hops tend to get smashed regardless.



the young leggie at my club started bowling seam up last week. hes a very good leg spinner, but i think he gets frustrated by the number of deliveries that completely beat the batsman but turn too much to get a wicket. last season he was about 3rd or 4th on the clubs leading wicket takers though, despite that! i just said "what are you bowling seam for?", and about 5 mins later he was back to leg breaks and causing problems again. if youre not 100% commited to leg spin then its almost not worth bothering. there are going to be entire seasons of nothing but frustration at times, so if you cant deal with it for even a few weeks then youll struggle to stick it out. those first 2 weeks this year at nets i was spending the entire time angry, kicking the wall, grunting, etc lol. everyone probably thought i was mental, but i stuck at it anyway. now it seems like results are around the corner. ive never once even considered changing to seam bowling. mostly just because everyones a seam bowler, and i like to be unique. for the same reasons, i dont think a batsman that bowls a bit part-time can ever realistically be a top leg spinner at club level. youngsters can do it because they practice a lot more, but not adults.

Sounds like we've all been through the mill, I must have said 2-3 times at my lowest points over the last 4-5 years that I was switching back to swing but I never went back. Commitment? yes. Obsession. definitely. But it was mostly because whenever I watched someone else bowling leg breaks I immediately fell in love with it all over again. And I think that's what you must possess to get really good at it. There's just something about bowling leg spin that is that much more beguiling than any other type of bowling. I thought I was the only one who was like this until I came on here and started listening to you chaps. It's fascinating to see the effect leg spin has upon both the practitioner and batsman. Its like the very distillation of the spirit of cricket, a constant battle of risk and reward balanced on a tightrope. But if you can control that balance and play around with it, bend it to your will....its why we do what we do. Can anyone think of any equivalent in any other sport where people are so uniquely affected by one discipline?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I see that you're referring to it as Leg Spinning and I've been wondering whether the next time they close this thread we should try naming it using the 'Leg spin' tag rather than wrist spin? It might be that we'll pick up a shed load more contributors and comments? What do you all reckon?

 

[gashead23]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Just came back from our nets tonight

Was really happy how they were coming out. What really seems to help for me now is slowing everything down in the initial stages of the run up and then trying to explode through the action. Consistent line for my leg break on off and middle tonight which I was really happy with.

Was trying to throw in the flipper every 10 balls or so, really struggle to bowl this, Im using the grip between my thumb and first two fingers and trying to flick at the point of delivery. At the moment it feels really awkward during realise and tends to go way to high in the air. Although I noticied it wobbling around nicely whilst it was up there!!

Had a nice bat as well and was happy with that, roll on April!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Just came back from our nets tonight

Was really happy how they were coming out. What really seems to help for me now is slowing everything down in the initial stages of the run up and then trying to explode through the action. Consistent line for my leg break on off and middle tonight which I was really happy with.

Was trying to throw in the flipper every 10 balls or so, really struggle to bowl this, Im using the grip between my thumb and first two fingers and trying to flick at the point of delivery. At the moment it feels really awkward during realise and tends to go way to high in the air. Although I noticied it wobbling around nicely whilst it was up there!!

Had a nice bat as well and was happy with that, roll on April!!

Yeah you'll have to spend some time with getting the Flipper, but it'll come. You might find when you do eventually suss it out because the seam is vertical like a pace ball it'll swing as well. Good to hear that you're doing well, you'll have to keep us informed as to how you do? Maybe we should have big cricket wrist spin thread competition and see who comes out with the best figures at the end of the year and base it on averages and strike rates as we don't all get a match every week?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I see that you're referring to it as Leg Spinning and I've been wondering whether the next time they close this thread we should try naming it using the 'Leg spin' tag rather than wrist spin? It might be that we'll pick up a shed load more contributors and comments? What do you all reckon?

ive started naming my youtube videos as leg spin instead of wrist spin as well. most people do seem to refer to it as leg spin, most of us included.

im going to try and get a practice in tomorrow morning, weather pending. its supposed to be sunny all morning, but cold. even if i can get a couple of hours in though then its better than nothing. i want to try and make the additional changes to my action that ive figured out, namely getting my front arm much higher, transferring even more weight, getting more side on, and directing my feet and hips better. plus trying to rotate over my shoulders, rather than around so much.

the end goal for tomorrow is to have video that looks identical to Shane Warne, not just similar. and see if that is a positive step or not. if it doesnt work out i can always revert back to where i am now. but at present i fear my accuracy is never going to improve to where i want it, no matter how much i practice, so something has to change in my technique.