Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

well we spent a couple of hours on friday night in the college car park. young strof after the first hour of trying and trying and becoming frustrated was able to bowl a few leg spinners and get his head around the change of action . it was really an up and down couple of hours as he insisted on trying a couple of googlies (against the advice on here and he found out he could not bowl one at first though this came right at the end) i managed to get him to agree to a ratio of 12-1 things seemed good. my point is we were using a reader wind ball on a newly laid tarmac surface.
today he tried with a corker on a damp cricket track and got nowhere no bounce or spin however the wind ball was still behaving as normal .is the lack of activity from the corker due to lack of grip on the surface and would the same apply on a damp turf wicket?

I think you've got a job on your hands here Mr Strof. As I recall your sons quite young and he's probably going to be lacking in the patience dept if he's anything like my 2? But if he got the ball to turn to off then that seems promising to me straight away as that suggests a small light at the end of the tunnel? I'd advocate scrapping any attempt at any other variation as I said it took me months. Here's a link to my diary - scroll right to the bottom of it (the oldest entry sept) and you'll see how much aggro I had recovering the leg break Wrist Spin Bowling

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

thanks jim.its getting to the stage where i am going to try and start bowling it myself it may help me understand what he is trying to do. im 46 by the way lol!

I'd never played cricket in my life except for about 1/2 hours worth when I was about 11 years old and I started this leg spin bowling lark just after I was 47. So you're starting out young in my books!!! Sorry I lied same as you 46.

 

[strof]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I think you've got a job on your hands here Mr Strof. As I recall your sons quite young and he's probably going to be lacking in the patience dept if he's anything like my 2? But if he got the ball to turn to off then that seems promising to me straight away as that suggests a small light at the end of the tunnel? I'd advocate scrapping any attempt at any other variation as I said it took me months. Here's a link to my diary - scroll right to the bottom of it (the oldest entry sept) and you'll see how much aggro I had recovering the leg break Wrist Spin Bowling

hi dave . i see what you mean. i can sense the despair in your writing, and i have also experienced the frustration( and anger) of my son when things dont go according to plan with his bowling. he was going to post on here himself tonight and ask the questions i have ,so he is still keen to learn.

i sometimes feel he has answered the call of some ancient brotherhood and i think that is why he needs to ask fellow legspinners like yourself for advice.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I've just read an article about the Pakistan wrist spinner that plays for Essex, Danish Kaneria, it includes some quotes from him - man is he an arrogant git, in it he claims that there are only 3 other people in the world that can do what he does. Maybe I'm being ultra niaive but I reckon he's stretching the truth there a little bit. He says he likes Panesars bowling and Adil Rashid and in doing so implies some respect, but one of 3 people in the world!!!?

Kaneria can bowl some top notch deliveries, at times. but ive seen him play quite a few county games, and ive never rated him as anything special. i dont reckon hes even in the top 3 worldwide!! bearing in mind that has to include retired players who can still bowl, so Shane Warne, Anil Kumble, and Stuart MacGill are instantly above him. Terry Jenner would probably out-bowl him as well, despite his advancing years. Amit Mishra is looking like a very good leggie, Steve Smith by all accounts too, and Shahid Afridi is certainly no slouch, although his hunger sometimes gets the better of him Kaneria doesnt even know what a flipper is. i wouldnt rate Adil Rashid in the same class as any of those though, and Monty Panesar looked a decent prospect when he first got capped for England, but he literally hasnt made a single improvement since. if anything hes gone backwards. Graeme Swann is IMO the best spinner currently playing cricket. leg spin is lacking anyone world class, theres nobody anywhere near to the same class as Warne and MacGill right now.

but arrogance is a part of the leg spinners armoury. maybe he doesnt genuinely believe it himself (although i reckon he probably does), but youve got to give the impression to batsmen that you will back yourself to beat them everytime. a nervous or shy leg spinner is going to get smashed around the park. Shane Warne has said it lots of times before, that leg spinners have to be able to bounce back. the ones that cant end up bowling seam-up. is there anything more arrogant than having a 28 foot tall statue of yourself driven around London just before the start of an Ashes series?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

hi dave . i see what you mean. i can sense the despair in your writing, and i have also experienced the frustration( and anger) of my son when things dont go according to plan with his bowling. he was going to post on here himself tonight and ask the questions i have ,so he is still keen to learn.

i sometimes feel he has answered the call of some ancient brotherhood and i think that is why he needs to ask fellow legspinners like yourself for advice.

Yeah get him on here, we'll all try and give some advice.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Kaneria can bowl some top notch deliveries, at times. but ive seen him play quite a few county games, and ive never rated him as anything special. i dont reckon hes even in the top 3 worldwide!! bearing in mind that has to include retired players who can still bowl, so Shane Warne, Anil Kumble, and Stuart MacGill are instantly above him. Terry Jenner would probably out-bowl him as well, despite his advancing years. Amit Mishra is looking like a very good leggie, Steve Smith by all accounts too, and Shahid Afridi is certainly no slouch, although his hunger sometimes gets the better of him Kaneria doesnt even know what a flipper is. i wouldnt rate Adil Rashid in the same class as any of those though, and Monty Panesar looked a decent prospect when he first got capped for England, but he literally hasnt made a single improvement since. if anything hes gone backwards. Graeme Swann is IMO the best spinner currently playing cricket. leg spin is lacking anyone world class, theres nobody anywhere near to the same class as Warne and MacGill right now.

but arrogance is a part of the leg spinners armoury. maybe he doesnt genuinely believe it himself (although i reckon he probably does), but youve got to give the impression to batsmen that you will back yourself to beat them everytime. a nervous or shy leg spinner is going to get smashed around the park. Shane Warne has said it lots of times before, that leg spinners have to be able to bounce back. the ones that cant end up bowling seam-up. is there anything more arrogant than having a 28 foot tall statue of yourself driven around London just before the start of an Ashes series?

I've just been watching the India v Sth Africa 2nd test on a internet highlight website. Loads of spin in that - Harris and Harbijan Singh and Mishra. All of them look equal to Kaneria, Mishra as good as, if not better as a Leg Spinner? I'll have a look at the Eng v Pak and see if Kaneria is playing in the T20 and see if he's any better than the rest later.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

is Harris actually turning it? normally hes useless. hes the most negative international spin bowler ive ever seen, all his wickets come from players getting frustrated at his negative lines (around leg stump) and they lash out and end up caught. he wouldnt even take wickets at club level IMO, S.Africa's spinners must be in a dire position for him to be playing in their national side!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

is Harris actually turning it? normally hes useless. hes the most negative international spin bowler ive ever seen, all his wickets come from players getting frustrated at his negative lines (around leg stump) and they lash out and end up caught. he wouldnt even take wickets at club level IMO, S.Africa's spinners must be in a dire position for him to be playing in their national side!

Not a lot I suppose, yeah I suppose he kind of relies on people getting totally miffed off with his approach and then he forces them to make a mistake. The mentality of playing a test match though is so different to what we have to do, as you was saying to Macca yesterday here in England we're lucky to get 6 overs in a match. I think only once have I ever had 8 overs. I get the impression the Aussies have a completely different form of club game to us, from the snippets I've read it sounds like they play over the whole weekend.

Macca - what do your club game consist of over there? The format we play is that we play 50 overs each sometimes less depending on what time of the year is (Light) the games start at 1 pm and go on for 6 or 7 hours. Is it different in Australia - do you have a 2 day format played at club level?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

After the discussion the other day about that lousy Cricinfo article on wrist-spin I've had a bash at explaining the Magnus effect and its implications for wrist spinners (Some of it's quite technical, some bits may be a little patronising, and the whole thing's quite lengthy I'm afraid). Hope you all find it interesting/useful, and let me know if there's anything that's obviously missing and/or wrong.

I'm afraid I'm in the land that broadband forgot next week, so I won't be about on here...

I forgot to reply to this, I gave it a read yesterday morning before I went to practice at the nets. It looks pretty much spot on to me. The only thing about it that is still confusing is drift in relation to temperature and humidity.

I've personally observed drift being at its maximum on humid days (when there is moisture in the air, usually just before its going to rain) in moderate summer heat (low 20's). I know that density decreases with temperature, but I think viscosity increases proportional to the square of temperature? In which case the increase in viscosity would outweigh the decrease in density, so surely this could offer some reasoning? I have no idea how humidity would then play into the mix.

At the same time though, I am basing that off of visual observations. And there is every chance that I'm just not consistent enough to judge it either way. I was getting crazy amounts of drift yesterday in fairly dry 4°C air (it snowed an hour after I finished). Much more than I've been managing at indoor nets. So maybe it does work best in colder air. Maybe thats why Shane Warne was so successful over here lol.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I forgot to reply to this, I gave it a read yesterday morning before I went to practice at the nets. It looks pretty much spot on to me. The only thing about it that is still confusing is drift in relation to temperature and humidity.

I've personally observed drift being at its maximum on humid days (when there is moisture in the air, usually just before its going to rain) in moderate summer heat (low 20's). I know that density decreases with temperature, but I think viscosity increases proportional to the square of temperature? In which case the increase in viscosity would outweigh the decrease in density, so surely this could offer some reasoning? I have no idea how humidity would then play into the mix.

At the same time though, I am basing that off of visual observations. And there is every chance that I'm just not consistent enough to judge it either way. I was getting crazy amounts of drift yesterday in fairly dry 4°C air (it snowed an hour after I finished). Much more than I've been managing at indoor nets. So maybe it does work best in colder air. Maybe thats why Shane Warne was so successful over here lol.

I think increased humdity increases viscosity also; don't quote me on it, but I think it does.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I forgot to reply to this, I gave it a read yesterday morning before I went to practice at the nets. It looks pretty much spot on to me. The only thing about it that is still confusing is drift in relation to temperature and humidity.

I've personally observed drift being at its maximum on humid days (when there is moisture in the air, usually just before its going to rain) in moderate summer heat (low 20's). I know that density decreases with temperature, but I think viscosity increases proportional to the square of temperature? In which case the increase in viscosity would outweigh the decrease in density, so surely this could offer some reasoning? I have no idea how humidity would then play into the mix.

At the same time though, I am basing that off of visual observations. And there is every chance that I'm just not consistent enough to judge it either way. I was getting crazy amounts of drift yesterday in fairly dry 4°C air (it snowed an hour after I finished). Much more than I've been managing at indoor nets. So maybe it does work best in colder air. Maybe thats why Shane Warne was so successful over here lol.

it maybe one of those things that people can't seem to put their finger on like even with all the science behind it sometimes a ball will swing and sometimes it won't even in the same conditions.
Generally humidity does help though.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

had a decent indoor game for the uni today especially considering the last few days i've been confined to bed with norovirus.

Ended up with 2-15 off 3 overs, first over went for only 5, second was much better conceding only 3 and bowling one of the openers with an arm ball, ball before was a leggie that nearly shaved the bails but just went over the top of middle stump. Unfotunately last ball of that over i couldn't cling on to a caught and bowled sharp one handed to my left, not easy but still disappointed. Last over was a different spell penultimate over of the innings was pretty decent got hit for my only boundary in this over couldn't get down quick enough to stop it, conceded only 7 in the end picking up a 2nd wicket with a low full toss arm ball which was the worst ball of the lot for an easy catch in the field. Was some justice though as i had a couple of edged leggies just inches short of fielders.

They ended up with 90-5 off their 12 in response to our 115-4 so we won easy, i managed a decent 5 off 4 balls out trying to hit a 6 after being told to 6 or out to get the retired openers back in.

Our other team won as well so a good day in all. Very happy with the accuracy, hopefully bodes well for the season especially with the lack of my fitness today.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

had a decent indoor game for the uni today especially considering the last few days i've been confined to bed with norovirus.

Ended up with 2-15 off 3 overs, first over went for only 5, second was much better conceding only 3 and bowling one of the openers with an arm ball, ball before was a leggie that nearly shaved the bails but just went over the top of middle stump. Unfotunately last ball of that over i couldn't cling on to a caught and bowled sharp one handed to my left, not easy but still disappointed. Last over was a different spell penultimate over of the innings was pretty decent got hit for my only boundary in this over couldn't get down quick enough to stop it, conceded only 7 in the end picking up a 2nd wicket with a low full toss arm ball which was the worst ball of the lot for an easy catch in the field. Was some justice though as i had a couple of edged leggies just inches short of fielders.

They ended up with 90-5 off their 12 in response to our 115-4 so we won easy, i managed a decent 5 off 4 balls out trying to hit a 6 after being told to 6 or out to get the retired openers back in.

Our other team won as well so a good day in all. Very happy with the accuracy, hopefully bodes well for the season especially with the lack of my fitness today.

Did you end up playing much indoor this off season? I remember weeks and weeks ago when you played the first game.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had indoor nets tonight. im in agony, my lower left leg is screwed. ive been speaking with Liz Ward about issues with my action that are causing it, and weve figured out the cause. but its an existing injury now, and it isnt going away. im going to either have to rest up until it resolves itself, or more likely go and see a physio about it.

i had a blinding start tonight at nets though. first team batsman in the net, a good one by all accounts. first ball, i got one to absolutely rip off the fingers, just outside leg stump. he wanted to offer a poke at it, then he decided to leave it, so hes stood there with his stance completely open. it grips the pitch, turns and bounces and hits him square in the nuts!! the guy was folded up in pain. i didnt realise how hard it had got him, so i was just laughing lol. it took him a few minutes to recover.

then about 3 balls later i bowled another one, just outside leg, he was tentative given what the first one did, so he offered a straight bat defence, quite high because he expected bounce (the bottom of the bat was at knee height). it must have seriously dipped in flight, because it bounced up to chest height with turn, and clipped the shoulder of the bat which was almost under his chin!! and this guy is about 6 foot. awesome delivery.

i bowled him a couple more decent ones, thought id found some consistency like i managed on saturday. but then it fell apart like usual, and my leg was hurting so much that i just couldnt focus. i had a bat at the end and im improving a little in that department. but theres nothing i can do now until my leg stops hurting.

ive identified a problem (or possibly a strength) in my bowling - lots of people say that when youre bowling at batsmen, you cant afford to be thinking about what youre doing, you just have to go with instinct. i find the opposite. i have to analyse every delivery and picture what im doing in my head. just going into autopilot starts out well, but ends with my reverting to old bad habits. so i get progressively worse. however my first 2 overs are usually absolutely blinding. so if i can keep myself thinking about what im doing, i might be able to extend that sweet spot to a dozen or so overs. which will be good come season start!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spin up. That was what Warne was saying on tv during Smiths spell in the last t20 against the west indies. He reckons hes happy with Smiths slower run up and better shoulder rotation and now all he needs to do is eliminate the short ball he bowls accidentally by spinning hard and dragging it down.

As we know, Warne and Jenner were always on the lookout to make sure warne himself kept this at the front of his mind and their constant cry was "spin up". I use it all the time with my young bloke as well.

Smith is fortunate to be a world class fieldsman and batsman so he can carry his spin bowling a bit and be selected as a bowling allrounder like Benaud and Philpott were at first. The selectors have told him it is the bowling they want him to concentrate on.

The NSW selectors have been good to him. The long line of NSW legspinners from Horden, Mailey, O Rielly, Mc Cool, Benaud , Philpott, Holland, MacGill continues with Smith. What is impessive is not his figures , at this point, but how he gets guys out.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had indoor nets tonight. im in agony, my lower left leg is screwed. ive been speaking with Liz Ward about issues with my action that are causing it, and weve figured out the cause. but its an existing injury now, and it isnt going away. im going to either have to rest up until it resolves itself, or more likely go and see a physio about it.

i had a blinding start tonight at nets though. first team batsman in the net, a good one by all accounts. first ball, i got one to absolutely rip off the fingers, just outside leg stump. he wanted to offer a poke at it, then he decided to leave it, so hes stood there with his stance completely open. it grips the pitch, turns and bounces and hits him square in the nuts!! the guy was folded up in pain. i didnt realise how hard it had got him, so i was just laughing lol. it took him a few minutes to recover.

then about 3 balls later i bowled another one, just outside leg, he was tentative given what the first one did, so he offered a straight bat defence, quite high because he expected bounce (the bottom of the bat was at knee height). it must have seriously dipped in flight, because it bounced up to chest height with turn, and clipped the shoulder of the bat which was almost under his chin!! and this guy is about 6 foot. awesome delivery.

i bowled him a couple more decent ones, thought id found some consistency like i managed on saturday. but then it fell apart like usual, and my leg was hurting so much that i just couldnt focus. i had a bat at the end and im improving a little in that department. but theres nothing i can do now until my leg stops hurting.

ive identified a problem (or possibly a strength) in my bowling - lots of people say that when youre bowling at batsmen, you cant afford to be thinking about what youre doing, you just have to go with instinct. i find the opposite. i have to analyse every delivery and picture what im doing in my head. just going into autopilot starts out well, but ends with my reverting to old bad habits. so i get progressively worse. however my first 2 overs are usually absolutely blinding. so if i can keep myself thinking about what im doing, i might be able to extend that sweet spot to a dozen or so overs. which will be good come season start!

Sounds like you must be giving that ball one hell of a flick these days if you're getting that kind of bounce in an indoor situation, the ball must be dipping loads. My net went okay I opted for the blokes in the lower XI's 3rds and 4ths (maybe some part time 2nd XI's)? Easy money with my accuracy and turn. They could all play the off-spinners but with the leg breaks they were lost. Noticed that many of them were weak when targeting their leg stump, wide of leg they seemed more confident but a fullish ball aimed at Leg stump caused many of them problems, so things are looking okay for the start of the season now. Our coach noticed the reduction in my rotation and this seems to be instrumental in getting a bit more turn off the wicket.

Didn't try the 'Biggun' although I've been having some success with it although quite erratic. I've got the length, flight, bounce and turn happening but no line as yet although I kind of sense with some practice it'll come because there have been glimmers of getting it right a couple of times in 6 balls. It looks and feels there's an element that is missing and that may be as simple as total focus and a lot more practice, but I reckon by the end of this season I may have it.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Sounds like you must be giving that ball one hell of a flick these days if you're getting that kind of bounce in an indoor situation, the ball must be dipping loads. My net went okay I opted for the blokes in the lower XI's 3rds and 4ths (maybe some part time 2nd XI's)? Easy money with my accuracy and turn. They could all play the off-spinners but with the leg breaks they were lost. Noticed that many of them were weak when targeting their leg stump, wide of leg they seemed more confident but a fullish ball aimed at Leg stump caused many of them problems, so things are looking okay for the start of the season now. Our coach noticed the reduction in my rotation and this seems to be instrumental in getting a bit more turn off the wicket.

Didn't try the 'Biggun' although I've been having some success with it although quite erratic. I've got the length, flight, bounce and turn happening but no line as yet although I kind of sense with some practice it'll come because there have been glimmers of getting it right a couple of times in 6 balls. It looks and feels there's an element that is missing and that may be as simple as total focus and a lot more practice, but I reckon by the end of this season I may have it.

sounds like you got into their bindspot. They need to open their stances. Too far down leg and their heads will turn instinctively to allow them to get both eyes on it.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had indoor nets tonight. im in agony, my lower left leg is screwed. ive been speaking with Liz Ward about issues with my action that are causing it, and weve figured out the cause. but its an existing injury now, and it isnt going away. im going to either have to rest up until it resolves itself, or more likely go and see a physio about it.

i had a blinding start tonight at nets though. first team batsman in the net, a good one by all accounts. first ball, i got one to absolutely rip off the fingers, just outside leg stump. he wanted to offer a poke at it, then he decided to leave it, so hes stood there with his stance completely open. it grips the pitch, turns and bounces and hits him square in the nuts!! the guy was folded up in pain. i didnt realise how hard it had got him, so i was just laughing lol. it took him a few minutes to recover.

then about 3 balls later i bowled another one, just outside leg, he was tentative given what the first one did, so he offered a straight bat defence, quite high because he expected bounce (the bottom of the bat was at knee height). it must have seriously dipped in flight, because it bounced up to chest height with turn, and clipped the shoulder of the bat which was almost under his chin!! and this guy is about 6 foot. awesome delivery.

i bowled him a couple more decent ones, thought id found some consistency like i managed on saturday. but then it fell apart like usual, and my leg was hurting so much that i just couldnt focus. i had a bat at the end and im improving a little in that department. but theres nothing i can do now until my leg stops hurting.

ive identified a problem (or possibly a strength) in my bowling - lots of people say that when youre bowling at batsmen, you cant afford to be thinking about what youre doing, you just have to go with instinct. i find the opposite. i have to analyse every delivery and picture what im doing in my head. just going into autopilot starts out well, but ends with my reverting to old bad habits. so i get progressively worse. however my first 2 overs are usually absolutely blinding. so if i can keep myself thinking about what im doing, i might be able to extend that sweet spot to a dozen or so overs. which will be good come season start!

Man I like the sound of that bounce. You'd probably go good on the tracks around here at the moment, rock hard. If you can get em thinking back foot it opens up all sorts of possibilities.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I like this quote from Grimmett where he seems to be comparing the use of his topspinner and dental surgery....."The constant succession of accurate leg breaks slowly wears down the batsmans defenses, and when he is completely under their influence that deadly straight overspinner makes for a painless extraction" C.V Grimmett.

Almost as if he was putting the poor batsman out of his misery.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Did you end up playing much indoor this off season? I remember weeks and weeks ago when you played the first game.

unfortunately the uni really haven't organised and indoor games really we just play as and when we can get an opponent so its ended up being only my 2nd game.