Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i was just watching the Warne "ball of the millenium" delivery to Strauss on YouTube to see what his arm and wrist look like at the point of release. and then i was watching the turn he generated.

YouTube - Warne to Strauss

yesterday to a left hander i was pitching the ball wider than that, and turning it over off stump on a fuller length with more bounce (e.g. there had to be overspin on it, so it wasnt even a big leg break). it was crazy, and i did it 3 balls in a row, so it wasnt just lucky deliveries either.

but i seriously need to find some accuracy and consistency in the next few weeks. team captains are starting to take a little notice of my bowling (they compliment the good ones), and i reckon if i can find consistency and take more wickets in nets then theres a chance of getting a place in a league side for the season. higher standards of batsmen = easier wickets. the hardest players to beat are the ones that lack technique or play unconventional shots in my limited experience. youll either turn the ball too much for them, or they will hit lucky runs with stupid shots (stumpings are easier though, as are catches in the deep). whereas bowling line and length to a straight bat is loads easier when its turning. slip and gully do all the work.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i was just watching the Warne "ball of the millenium" delivery to Strauss on YouTube to see what his arm and wrist look like at the point of release. and then i was watching the turn he generated.

YouTube - Warne to Strauss

yesterday to a left hander i was pitching the ball wider than that, and turning it over off stump on a fuller length with more bounce (e.g. there had to be overspin on it, so it wasnt even a big leg break). it was crazy, and i did it 3 balls in a row, so it wasnt just lucky deliveries either.

but i seriously need to find some accuracy and consistency in the next few weeks. team captains are starting to take a little notice of my bowling (they compliment the good ones), and i reckon if i can find consistency and take more wickets in nets then theres a chance of getting a place in a league side for the season. higher standards of batsmen = easier wickets. the hardest players to beat are the ones that lack technique or play unconventional shots in my limited experience. youll either turn the ball too much for them, or they will hit lucky runs with stupid shots (stumpings are easier though, as are catches in the deep). whereas bowling line and length to a straight bat is loads easier when its turning. slip and gully do all the work.

Yeah I don't think it's impossible for club players to do the same as Warne, my mate the Wizard turns the ball a country mile but lacks the accuracy. Yesterday with the Hockey Balls on tramac I was getting ridiculous amounts of turn as well and at different points in my development with the Wrong Un especially the turn has been huge. I don't know about bowling against 1st XI batsmen, I can see the use in a match situation against openers to some extent depending to on whether there are other Wrist Spinners in their team and the teams they play. If there's not that many around and they're used to having a bloke throw the ball at them at 70mph I reckon there's value in bringing a wrist spinner in after 5 overs. The change in pace just at the point where he's beginning to settle in, alternating between the fast bowler and yourself would cause problems in my mind? But I reckon that's dependent of whether he gets to bat against wrist spinners as part of his practice? On our side is the fact that Wrist Spinners are a pretty rare breed - my aforementioned mate was saying last night that he was considering throwing the towel in because he 'Can't do it', but his inconsistency is due to the fact that he's not prepared to put the hours in to get the accuracy sussed. Additionally he's not one of those blokes that's interested in fitness and he smokes, so he soon runs out of steam and he's only about 30 years old.

1st XI middle order players with years of experience under their belts relish the chance to face spinners and if you get anything wrong usually have the skills and nous to ruin your figures. But then again, they probably face blokes that have 2 variations and have never heard of the likes of Clarrie Grimmett and Peter Philpott? So I suppose if you're a good wrist spinner and you can use your brain in the field your chances are going to be improved? There are so many variables - pitches that don't offer bounce, the pressure of the match, your own form, their form, captaincy, whether you're being dominated the list goes on and on, so I suppose it's a case of just seeing how it goes? But yeah being an in-form confident wrist spinner with a handful of variations could well see you being the best bowler in the team this year if not within a couple of years?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had a bored 5 mins, so i decided to take some screenshots of Warne bowling and then do a side-by-side comparison to my own bowling. the results are surprisingly similar!!

my front arm is nowhere near as pronounced (which results in slouched shoulders and less weight on my back foot. Warnes back is dead upright, weight back, arm straight and up), a few people keep bringing that point up on YouTube. im not sure that im fully in agreement, but it cant hurt to try and adjust it and see what happens. it didnt work before, but then i wasnt finding the form i am now. and im still struggling for consistency and accuracy. so its worth a try.

the other major differences are that Warne is a LOT more side on than me (the camera angle does deceive slightly, but his feet land inline in his delivery stride, mine are offset by about a foot (meaning my chest is wide open), and his hips and feet all point at the target. this is what the coach was telling me about the other day, and i think that he makes an excellent point.

he tucks his arm to his hip a lot tighter, before then thrusting it out. but i think this is of less relevance. the hips and feet are the key to it all.

and another VERY interesting thing ive noticed, is his arm height in his follow through. it looks very similar to mine, except that his arm is flailed outwards much lower. this is the "rotating over the shoulders" point that he often makes. i obviously dont rotate up and over as much as i thought i did. i rotate around, which is very interesting so far as accuracy and consistency goes!! rotating around is always going to be less accurate than rotating over.

in terms of arm and wrist positon at the point of delivery, and method of applying spin though, if i was a bit shorter in height with bleached hair in low quality video it might be tricky to differentiate on that screen shot the other 3 i have areas to adjust.

i know that generally speaking its considered a bad idea to try and change your natural action to replicate someone elses. for example, all the young club level pace bowlers that try to be Malinga, and just end up crap spraying the ball all over the place lol. but my action is really similar to Warne, based around the same core movements, and purposely so because since day 1 ive compared everything ive done to Warnes action. and i think maybe trying to adopt those last few aspects of his motion that i dont yet have might be quicker than using the normal trial and error. they pretty much agree with everything im thinking myself, everything i am being advised on, and would provide the solution to all of my current issues.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i had a bored 5 mins, so i decided to take some screenshots of Warne bowling and then do a side-by-side comparison to my own bowling. the results are surprisingly similar!!

my front arm is nowhere near as pronounced (which results in slouched shoulders and less weight on my back foot. Warnes back is dead upright, weight back, arm straight and up), a few people keep bringing that point up on YouTube. im not sure that im fully in agreement, but it cant hurt to try and adjust it and see what happens. it didnt work before, but then i wasnt finding the form i am now. and im still struggling for consistency and accuracy. so its worth a try.

the other major differences are that Warne is a LOT more side on than me (the camera angle does deceive slightly, but his feet land inline in his delivery stride, mine are offset by about a foot (meaning my chest is wide open), and his hips and feet all point at the target. this is what the coach was telling me about the other day, and i think that he makes an excellent point.

he tucks his arm to his hip a lot tighter, before then thrusting it out. but i think this is of less relevance. the hips and feet are the key to it all.

and another VERY interesting thing ive noticed, is his arm height in his follow through. it looks very similar to mine, except that his arm is flailed outwards much lower. this is the "rotating over the shoulders" point that he often makes. i obviously dont rotate up and over as much as i thought i did. i rotate around, which is very interesting so far as accuracy and consistency goes!! rotating around is always going to be less accurate than rotating over.

in terms of arm and wrist positon at the point of delivery, and method of applying spin though, if i was a bit shorter in height with bleached hair in low quality video it might be tricky to differentiate on that screen shot the other 3 i have areas to adjust.

i know that generally speaking its considered a bad idea to try and change your natural action to replicate someone elses. for example, all the young club level pace bowlers that try to be Malinga, and just end up crap spraying the ball all over the place lol. but my action is really similar to Warne, based around the same core movements, and purposely so because since day 1 ive compared everything ive done to Warnes action. and i think maybe trying to adopt those last few aspects of his motion that i dont yet have might be quicker than using the normal trial and error. they pretty much agree with everything im thinking myself, everything i am being advised on, and would provide the solution to all of my current issues.

Blimey - that's impressive - that's almost like for like!!!! If you keep this up and you come up with the kind of results your expecting you'll probably end up in the first team by the end of the season! You're going to have to start batting as well at this rate!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Blimey - that's impressive - that's almost like for like!!!! If you keep this up and you come up with the kind of results your expecting you'll probably end up in the first team by the end of the season! You're going to have to start batting as well at this rate!

im still holding out for a 2010 Ashes call-up

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

im still holding out for a 2010 Ashes call-up

They could do a lot worse! As far as an open/closed body position goes, I found in the past bowling seam-up that, from a wheelchair, I can't get properly side-on because I can't rotate as an able-bodied bowler can, so, if I try, I bowl down leg side and can't follow-through because my left shoulder's in the way (I'm right-handed). You, however, have no excuse! I know Philpott reckons that chest-on bowling is like "past the vertical" bowling - it can work, but it is much more susceptible to errors creeping in and the wheels falling off. I really reckon you ought to give it a try - if it doesn't work you can always revert.

Anyway gents, have you seen this video?YouTube - Shane Warne On: The Flipper

Two things that interest me here - one is that, at that time at least (1999), Warne's "zooter" was Philpott's "round the loop slider". Secondly, is he trying to fool people into how to bowl the flipper? Looks like it to me!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

They could do a lot worse! As far as an open/closed body position goes, I found in the past bowling seam-up that, from a wheelchair, I can't get properly side-on because I can't rotate as an able-bodied bowler can, so, if I try, I bowl down leg side and can't follow-through because my left shoulder's in the way (I'm right-handed). You, however, have no excuse! I know Philpott reckons that chest-on bowling is like "past the vertical" bowling - it can work, but it is much more susceptible to errors creeping in and the wheels falling off. I really reckon you ought to give it a try - if it doesn't work you can always revert.

Anyway gents, have you seen this video?YouTube - Shane Warne On: The Flipper

Two things that interest me here - one is that, at that time at least (1999), Warne's "zooter" was Philpott's "round the loop slider". Secondly, is he trying to fool people into how to bowl the flipper? Looks like it to me!

we had a discussion about that video last week. id seen it ages and ages ago, and wanted to refer to it again recently but couldnt find it. maybe it got taken off youtube and has now returned.

but anyway, we mentioned about the Warne Zooter. i was discussing this a few months back because i was calling a hypothetical "flying saucer" delivery the zooter, thinking that i had seen Warne describe it that way once. i had just misremembered. when trying to find info, everyone that described the Zooter (Michael Atherton wrote the article that gave the most detail) made it sound like what Philpott (and most of us on here) call the slider. the backspun around the loop version.

so it transpires that Warnes deliveries were...

Leg Break - what it says, with a variety of side and over spin
Top Spinner - what it says
Googly - wrong'un
Big Leg Break - leg break with slight backspin
Zooter - backspun slider
Flipper - what it says
Slider - arm ball, of sorts. or sometimes a scrambled leg break

so now i have to come up with a new name for my hypothetical delivery, because otherwise it will get even more confusing. ive never managed to bowl one properly though, so maybe there is no need for a name at all lol. i also dont know whether it has anything to offer. but in theory if you apply horizontal spin with a horizontal seam (like a flying saucer) then it should behave in a similar way to Lasith Malinga's deliveries, but with more revs and less speed. so i reckon more flight movement, but still the same zip off the pitch.

with regards Warnes demonstration of the flipper - hes either describing it wrongly (on purpose), or he is just illustrating it badly for that camera angle. his flipper is bowled with the same grip as his leg break except for his thumb. its very well disguised, and is how im developing mine now. the only thing thats off about the video is the seam angle, which should be straight, but his looks sideways. its the angle of the camera i think.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

we had a discussion about that video last week. id seen it ages and ages ago, and wanted to refer to it again recently but couldnt find it. maybe it got taken off youtube and has now returned.

but anyway, we mentioned about the Warne Zooter. i was discussing this a few months back because i was calling a hypothetical "flying saucer" delivery the zooter, thinking that i had seen Warne describe it that way once. i had just misremembered. when trying to find info, everyone that described the Zooter (Michael Atherton wrote the article that gave the most detail) made it sound like what Philpott (and most of us on here) call the slider. the backspun around the loop version.

so it transpires that Warnes deliveries were...

Leg Break - what it says, with a variety of side and over spin
Top Spinner - what it says
Googly - wrong'un
Big Leg Break - leg break with slight backspin
Zooter - backspun slider
Flipper - what it says
Slider - arm ball, of sorts. or sometimes a scrambled leg break

so now i have to come up with a new name for my hypothetical delivery, because otherwise it will get even more confusing. ive never managed to bowl one properly though, so maybe there is no need for a name at all lol. i also dont know whether it has anything to offer. but in theory if you apply horizontal spin with a horizontal seam (like a flying saucer) then it should behave in a similar way to Lasith Malinga's deliveries, but with more revs and less speed. so i reckon more flight movement, but still the same zip off the pitch.

with regards Warnes demonstration of the flipper - hes either describing it wrongly (on purpose), or he is just illustrating it badly for that camera angle. his flipper is bowled with the same grip as his leg break except for his thumb. its very well disguised, and is how im developing mine now. the only thing thats off about the video is the seam angle, which should be straight, but his looks sideways. its the angle of the camera i think.

Sorry Jim, I haven't been keeping up with the thread recently. I'm glad that I found the video you were looking for! I can't see how it's possible to bowl the flipper with the third finger in the conventional leg-spin along the seam position - I've tried it and it seems to prevent backspin. Surely it needs to be off the ball or on top of the ball?

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

And just to really confuse us, here's a quote from this link (Next year's Test dates, and other FAQs | Sport | guardian.co.uk)
about the zooter:

Warne claims to have invented the "zooter", so we asked Mark Ray, the Australian journalist who helped write Warne's autobiography, how you bowl it. He said: "It's difficult to explain without drawings ... but basically the zooter comes out of the front of the hand, with the fingers running across it sideways, like a legbreak - but the ball is propelled more by the palm. It's not unlike a knuckle ball, but not as slow. The zooter does very little in the air or off the pitch - which is part of the point. It's not flatter like the flipper, which is under-spun - the zooter sort of wobbles down."

Now that sounds the front of the hand slider!

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

On our side is the fact that Wrist Spinners are a pretty rare breed

Are we really that rare? There's at least three at my club, and that's not counting the guys who haven't turned up for the same nets as I have.

No bowling updates at the mo as sadly my right shoulder's recovering from a little injury. It would happen just as I was starting to get the hang of the basics...

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

And just to really confuse us, here's a quote from this link (Next year's Test dates, and other FAQs | Sport | guardian.co.uk)
about the zooter:



Now that sounds the front of the hand slider!

There's no back-spin to make it a slider. I like this description of it being a zooter, this is the first definition of a zooter that I feel that I can buy into.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

There's no back-spin to make it a slider. I like this description of it being a zooter, this is the first definition of a zooter that I feel that I can buy into.

I meant what other videos suggested Warne called his slider - see the Mark Nicholas video on Youtube to see.

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I'm with Dave, this description sounds at least mildly plausible. Rather like the one Mishra bowls in fact. i'd always thought of the zooter as a non-existent delivery, a figment of Warne's imagination designed to worry the Englishmen at the height of his reign of terror. i'm still not convinced it does exist, in the sense that he actually put some thought into creating it. can anyone honestly say they have ever seen Warney bowl a so called zooter? but lets perpetuate the myth anyway! gives the batsmen something else to worry about doesn't it?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Are we really that rare? There's at least three at my club, and that's not counting the guys who haven't turned up for the same nets as I have.

No bowling updates at the mo as sadly my right shoulder's recovering from a little injury. It would happen just as I was starting to get the hang of the basics...

Yeah - most clubs have a proliferation of one dimensional flinger spinners, but wrist spinners are a far less common feature and you might find that all your wrist spinners are 'Sons of Warne' e.g. younger blokes that have been inspired by Warne. Prior to Warne wrist spin was virtually dead. Another thing as well if you care to be a bit snobby about wrist spin, is that they're more than likely 'Leg Break bowlers' and might not have any knowledge of the variations and potential of Grimmetts 'Round the loop' theory.

My own club is well up for spin bowling and as I gain more knowledge of it and talk to more people about it I'm beginning to realise that many of the blokes that I thought were wrist spinners are in fact 'Spinners' that mix the two actions, they tend to have a leg break of some sort and their off-break is a finger spin off-break. There also seems to be a transition at my club going on at the moment as well. The other 2 'Wrist Spinners' are both on the verge of chucking the towel in because they're not moving forward with what they're doing, one of them is 14 - 15 years old and is suffering from growth spurt syndrome and the other is getting fed up with his inconsistency. That'll leave me as the only true wrist spinner in the team and that's more than 70 blokes - possibly more?

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

My points are as follows:
1. We have previously discussed the existence of two deliveries that have been called sliders - Philpott's round-the-loop backspinner and the Jenner/Warne out of the front of hand delivery with the scrambled seam
2. In the video I found earlier, Warne calls the round the loop backspinner a zooter and makes no mention of a slider.
3. In the Guardian article, Warne's biographer is quoted as describ8ing the zooter as a ball palmed out of the front of the hand with no spin, which sounds a lot to me like the Jenner/Warne slider as described by Jenner on videos and by Warne with Mark Nicholas.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I meant what other videos suggested Warne called his slider - see the Mark Nicholas video on Youtube to see.

The Mark Nicholas video shows the slider coming off the 3rd finger as I recall which would put back-spin on it? I'll have a look.............

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

The Mark Nicholas video shows the slider coming off the 3rd finger as I recall which would put back-spin on it? I'll have a look.............

Yeah, but it is palmed to an extent and doesn't look one bit like the round the loop backspinner that Philpott describes. It does, however, sound a lot like the Guardian quote of what Warne's zooter was like.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I'm with Dave, this description sounds at least mildly plausible. Rather like the one Mishra bowls in fact. i'd always thought of the zooter as a non-existent delivery, a figment of Warne's imagination designed to worry the Englishmen at the height of his reign of terror. i'm still not convinced it does exist, in the sense that he actually put some thought into creating it. can anyone honestly say they have ever seen Warney bowl a so called zooter? but lets perpetuate the myth anyway! gives the batsmen something else to worry about doesn't it?

the Zooter is what Philpott calls a backspun round the loop slider. if you watch a video about Warnes 10 favourite dismissals i seem to recall there being at least 3 that looked like straight breaks that werent flippers. they had all the characteristics of a "zooter". there is another video of Warne, i think it may be against south africa, where again there are plenty of "zooter" looking dismissals.

myself and macca discussed it quite a while ago, and were both of the opinion that Warne took a great deal of wickets with his zooter earlier in his career before he really started to use the flipper, many of which were not credited correctly (and once his flipper came along, EVERYTHING straight was a flipper according to commentary, so then none got credited at all).

i may change my name for it to Zooter as well, just because it sounds cooler, and it differentiates me from other leggies who call their arm ball a slider. the Zooter is a hard delivery to bowl, i doubt many leggies have ever mastered it. i certainly havent got it anywhere close to mastered, i can occasionally bowl it. but i want to develop it much further this year. at present my basic leg break technique is of more importance though. variations are fun, but im starting to see what a good leg break and natural variation can do to batsmen, and its making me less desperate to work on variations.

this is the busiest this thread has been in ages good to see all of the faces reappearing after winter hibernation.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the Zooter is what Philpott calls a backspun round the loop slider. if you watch a video about Warnes 10 favourite dismissals i seem to recall there being at least 3 that looked like straight breaks that werent flippers. they had all the characteristics of a "zooter". there is another video of Warne, i think it may be against south africa, where again there are plenty of "zooter" looking dismissals.

myself and macca discussed it quite a while ago, and were both of the opinion that Warne took a great deal of wickets with his zooter earlier in his career before he really started to use the flipper, many of which were not credited correctly (and once his flipper came along, EVERYTHING straight was a flipper according to commentary, so then none got credited at all).

i may change my name for it to Zooter as well, just because it sounds cooler, and it differentiates me from other leggies who call their arm ball a slider. the Zooter is a hard delivery to bowl, i doubt many leggies have ever mastered it. i certainly havent got it anywhere close to mastered, i can occasionally bowl it. but i want to develop it much further this year. at present my basic leg break technique is of more importance though. variations are fun, but im starting to see what a good leg break and natural variation can do to batsmen, and its making me less desperate to work on variations.

this is the busiest this thread has been in ages good to see all of the faces reappearing after winter hibernation.

Yeah, we're all here! It seems that there is confusion as to which delivery was the zooter - Warne seems to class it as the backspun delivery round the loop from the big turning leg-spinner, but his biographer seems to refer to a delivery that sounds like the arm-ball type slider, palmed out of the fingers in some way. However, Warne seems to classify this ball as the slider.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah, but it is palmed to an extent and doesn't look one bit like the round the loop backspinner that Philpott describes. It does, however, sound a lot like the Guardian quote of what Warne's zooter was like.

Again the Slider comes in a variety of different variations, Warnes also described the slider as (1). a ball that is gripped in the same manner as leg break but then he bowls it in exactly the same way that seam bowler does except that seam is across rather than up. With this the ball skids through as noted by Jim when it hits the smooth part of the ball - but when it hits the seam it acts differently. (2). The Warne/Jenner technique in the Nicholas video and Jenners vids on the BBC and Coverdale - which is the out of the front of the hand spinning off the fingers. (3). The Grimmett/Philpott back-spinning slider which it could be argued is the 'real slider'.

As golden arm says he is the master of psycological games and maybe the zooter is just a slight variation of the slider and he just gives it a name to create confusion and fear?

I think when it comes down to it there isn't a definitive answer to many of these questions as to what constitutes one ball or another and that realistically when you're learning them you have to look at what's on offer. Analyse the theory, try it out and see if it works for you. I've always understood the principle and theory of the 'Big Flick' using the wrist and fingers but have not been able to produce it with a leg break and wondered how many people really give the ball a big flick when they bowl? At one point I thought it was physically impossible and ended up coming up with my own leg break with a more of an 'Unfurl' action rather than a dynamic 'Flick', but bit by bit I'm getting there. In the meantime my unfurling action worked and gave me a bigger leg break. I think you have to read as much as possible, watch as much as you can and come up with something that suits you and is right for you. If it works give it a name 'The Gipper' was one of mine and then I found out it was actually the Wrong wrong un. No matter how you end up bowling someone somewhere out there will be bowling in the exact same way as you and will have a name for it.