Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;388179 said:
i never realised which length the flipper was most effective on. i always figured it would need to be full, else the batsman would have too much time to adapt to it going straight. i had missed the point though. it is best used on a short length, bowled with minimal flight, so that the batsman expects to be able to cut or pull it off the back foot. he gets back into his crease ready for it, but the ball reaches his faster than expected and doesnt bounce up, and his pads are totally exposed in front of the stumps and prime for LBW.
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I notice with my young blokes flipper that even though i can read it from his thumb, it looks like it is going to be short out of his hand but comes on a lot further and faster than you think it should.

I could never bowl one over 22 yards, but my son does pitch it shorter than normal but it seems to floats on. LBW special if he gets it straight against his mates but he still has not used it an a game because it is a one in three delivery at the moment.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Legspin is my life;388195 said:
hi to all members

i am trying to recover from my googly syndrome but not completely successful
when bowl short distances i get leg break but with the usual bowling its googly
also i find something changed in my action but i can figure out what it is
after the jump i dont feel like i comin completely sidearm and bowling and getting my arm high enough

i feel like i am missing something in the end that final rip
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You have tried a few things now to get over googly syndrome. Overcompensating by bowling the backspinner and hopefully forcing your wrist to come around. Bowling against a wall and getting the release right so it legspins. You can do it over short distances anyway already as you said above.

Isolate it to one thing, say the elbow. If your elbow is pointing up at release it will be a wrongun; think elbow pointing down for the leg break, sometimes that helps.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

macca;388221 said:
I notice with my young blokes flipper that even though i can read it from his thumb, it looks like it is going to be short out of his hand but comes on a lot further and faster than you think it should.

I could never bowl one over 22 yards, but my son does pitch it shorter than normal but it seems to floats on. LBW special if he gets it straight against his mates but he still has not used it an a game because it is a one in three delivery at the moment.
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thats true, most leg spin deliveries are as much about deception in flight as anything. the flipper carries further in flight, so the batsman makes a judgement that its a shorter ball, then it isnt, AND it stays low and straight. and then theyre screwed.

Nasser Hussain alluded to it when he was hosting the Shane Warne masterclass during last summers Ashes coverage. when talking about the flipper, he said something along the lines of thinking that Warne had bowled the first long-hop of his career, his eyes lighting up, and next thing he knew the ball had rapped him on the pads. i cant remember if it got him out, i think it did. most of the flipper dismissals you see though the batsman is on the back foot. i guess you have to find a length somewhere in between short and good. full enough to reduce the reaction time, but short enough that the batsman wants to play it off the back foot (accounting for the flight carrying it further than it should).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

My sons team lost again today:(. The surprise was they did as well as they did considering it is the best team in the comp.

My kid did OK. He took 1/17 off 5 overs. He started with a wicket maiden. Had one of the openers caught at short leg. His second over only went for 1 run. So 1/1 off his first two overs and the club selector was watching for the first time this season so that looked good.

He had a spell and came back later when the game was just about lost to bowl the last overs. The batsmen were set, he had no slip and two catches went straight through there :mad:. He went for 2 boundaries in his last over which knocked his figures about a bit. Not much wrong with the deliveries just good batting.

5 overs of legbreaks and topspinners. After the game he told me he bowled one backspinner as variation and it nearly worked.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

i managed to find the time (and weather) for a net session this morning. there was a freezing cold wind gusting occasionally when i first got there, but it died down a bit and warmed up. then it started snowing so i had to abandon the session after about 90 mins or so lol.

i was bowling much better again, ive started to find improvements again now. those first 2 weeks at indoor nets must have just been me getting loose after the winter, now im finding improvements all the time. todays session wasnt amazing, but it had some positives. i dont think my bowling is as good as it was at the end of last season yet, but my technique is definitely more solid. and there is plenty of room for improvement still.

also, i mustnt overlook the fact that it was only just above freezing today outside, and the net surface was more than a little damp (slippery underfoot in places). my old videos were shot on a very warm day with a perfectly dry surface. and i was at the back end of a very good run of "form" in practice.

i took the camera setup along, and after about 45 mins of average bowling i got it out to see if i could do any analysis with it.

i started out struggling for turn, but im generating HUGE revs in flight!! i captured a couple of deliveries with my white ball with black tape on it later on in the session. then in the slow motion vids ive calculated the revs at 1475 rpm!!! thats about 20% more than ive ever recorded before, and i think it mostly comes down to the increased speed and intensity of my overall action. although i spent most of today bowling off a slower run-up.

my length is much improved, it will drop short if i drag a ball down (cold fingers dont help), and very occasionally il bowl one that slips out and flies skywards. but i reckon about 90% are on an acceptable length now. line is my big problem still, i have a tendancy towards the leg side that i cant seem to correct. i can compensate for it, but i dont want to have to. the one major thing ive noticed which is something that i conveniently forget from last season, is that very few balls are REALLY bad now. last year i would bowl maybe 1 in 6 (or worse) that were completely wide, or hit the side netting, or the roof (and probably 2-3 of the 5 other balls would be potential run scorers). now i bowl maybe one awful ball in 20 (and about 12/20 are good deliveries that would be hard to score from, or would take wickets). there are still a few that would get smashed for runs, but on the most part im getting closer to being able to contain a batsman whilst still spinning hard (which is my end goal). thats something that i think i will have pretty well nailed by the time the season starts if i can continue at this pace.

there was a guy there with his kid who i think is the club U15 coach, hes certainly a coach of some description as ive seen him giving lessons before. he was quite interested in my camera setup, i think the club are looking at getting something maybe. i was speaking to him about my issues, and he made some interesting suggestions regarding my feet and hip alignment. my leading arm is up now, its not flailing around like last year, and i sort of tuck it to my hip in the follow through. i still swing it out at the end because that generates momentum, and my rotation is looking good. but he was saying about how the feet and hips should ultimately align themselves with the target, and that if im constantly bowling leg side despite aiming for middle stump, then thats probably a good place to start looking. unfortunately my videos were taken a little too close up, so i cant see my feet or legs properly, which sucks! but i think he may have a point about the hips, as on deliveries that go where i want them to my hips are a lot more front-on at release. my action is just front-on full stop, nothing is changing that. side-on doesnt work for me, and im not going to change anything when im getting the kind of revs i was today!!! lol. but my feet alignment can be changed easily enough, and may provide some solutions.

my single biggest issue at present is seam presentation. i spin the ball with a perfect seam (e.g. not scrambled) the majority of the time. but that presents a problem in that if you dont land the ball perfectly on the seam (about 1.5cm of the 24cm diameter ball!), it does nothing off the pitch (it still moves though in flight). whereas if you scramble the seam its more consistent, and is the reason why the 2 young leggies at my club are more consistent than me, they scramble it, not intentionally i dont think. im landing the ball slanted backwards with my natural action, but i spent some time today altering my wrist and its getting better. 1 in 3 lands on the seam now probably, i want that to be 3 in 4 at the very minimum though!

so ive made progress again. i had a go at a few variations for a couple of balls each. the slider wasnt happening, it was way too cold to get loose enough for that, it was coming out as a leg break. my flipper was working beautifully over 16 yards, massive backspin and zipping through about 8" above the ground! but i couldnt project it over 22 yards. i reckon il have a match-standard flipper by the end of the season though. my hand action is completely disguised now (only the thumb gives it away), but i didnt get any video of it today, i was too focussed on the leg breaks. the off spinning flipper cant be bowled with the disguised action so i have to make a decision on whether to keep it or not. i may lose it, focus on my leg breaks and sliders (with the odd flipper), and just try to learn the googly and top spinner later in the year. im not obsessed with a need to turn one the other way at the moment, a solid leg break and a good straight break will prove problematic enough for batsmen if i find consistency in line! il see how i go with my stock balls.

il make a seperate thread later with videos on it. ive got to convert them all and upload them yet. it might not even be until tomorrow.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

So, during the last net session I managed to get my run up rhythm down, and can do that without too much focus by now. I also got some practice on spin, and I seem to be able to get a middle-stump line (well, bouncing there and turning off) generally, though I could certainly do with more consistency. It's a lot more comfortable bowling in a more round-arm position, given that when I used to bowl, I used to use a high arm, as we were generally all instructed to bowl with the arm touching the ear and so on. That may well work for most fast and medium pacers, I wouldn't know, but I'm not sure it's really optimal for spinners. I think next time, I'll bring along something to mark out a good length (I believe that would be about 3 yards or so in front of the batsman, and a bit shorter?) and bowl to that. Still, it's currently the Chinese New Year, so I'm not going to be bowling on a pitch for a while, though there's enough place around here to get some practice in.

Other than that, the opening of Philpott's book was brilliant. Also, apparently some of you had read Grimmett's 'Tricking the Batsman', how was that? If you had already answered and I missed it, I apologise. Anyway, Philpott's book has given me enough to do for next week, I reckon.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;388179 said:
i think he was presenting the deliveries as if his arm were at his side, hence it looks like he bowls the flipper sideways, its deceptive. i like how well he disguises the hand though. ive made major changes to my flipping action in my hand over the winter, so mine is now also fully concealed. the only giveaway is the thumb underneath the ball, the same as with Warne. it would take a brave batsman to second guess it though.

also, back to the subject of "obvious things that you never thought of before" that we were discussing last week....

i never realised which length the flipper was most effective on. i always figured it would need to be full, else the batsman would have too much time to adapt to it going straight. i had missed the point though. it is best used on a short length, bowled with minimal flight, so that the batsman expects to be able to cut or pull it off the back foot. he gets back into his crease ready for it, but the ball reaches his faster than expected and doesnt bounce up, and his pads are totally exposed in front of the stumps and prime for LBW.

i always thought a "long hop" was long from the bowlers perspective. i guess it actually means a shorter delivery!! its taken me a year to realise that lol.
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Sounds feasible, I'm finding it difficult to bowl accurately at the minute as I'm out of practice. Been bowling it at my kids - found with them I seemed to do better with it if bowled round the wicket fairly wide and aimed at their legs - might try this at nets and see what happens?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Im a stuggling wrist spinner who has been reading bits and pieces of your thread for a while.

Im determined to get it right this season and have started a blog to recant my progress this season

If anyone is interested then its


http://3rdchoiceleggie.blogspot.com/

My aim Is at least one five wicket haul this season!

And some runs please!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

gashead23;388293 said:
Im a stuggling wrist spinner who has been reading bits and pieces of your thread for a while.

Im determined to get it right this season and have started a blog to recant my progress this season

If anyone is interested then its


The travails of a club cricketer

My aim Is at least one five wicket haul this season!

And some runs please!
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Yeah we're interested and that's some pretty big target you've set yourself there! Just had a look at the blog and it's looking pretty good so far, the comment about the little kids is a fairly typical observation at club level, for some reason they do seem to do really well and the slownes and loopy-ness of their technique serves them well. I also reckon there's something too in the fact that little kids really put the batsman under an extra level psychological pressure that leads to them completely screwing up and getting bowled, stumped - dismissed. Don't worry about your figures compared to the little kids - just focus on your own personal best performances.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

over the last 2 seasons I have 5 wickets at like 60 runs

And averaging about 10 with the bat

Im starting from a low point!:(
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

gashead23;388296 said:
over the last 2 seasons I have 5 wickets at like 60 runs

And averaging about 10 with the bat

Im starting from a low point!:(
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in the 4 games i played last season i managed 2-118 (at a strike rate of 42) with the ball, and averaged 14 with the bat lol. and i thought id had a pretty good first season with those figures! 5-60 doesnt sound too bad at all :D it actually sounds pretty good, average of 12!

ive set myself similar goals to yourself. i want a 5-wicket haul for less than 25 runs. i want my season average to be <25, and my strike rate to be <20. with a minimum of 2 wickets per game for the entire season. thats my target, i dont expect to reach it, but if you aim low then whats the point!

im targetting a batting average of >25 (even though i cant bat), with at least one hundred, 2 fifties, and five 20+ run hauls. the bowling goals are unlikely, the batting goals are pushing the definition of impossible though. but its worth a shot.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

the bowling looks good jim especially the flight looks perfect.
The targets ofr the season look nice and high :p ,i'm aiming for hopefully a 5 wicket haul or else to beat my best of 3 wickets. Batting wise i'm looking to beat my highest score hopefully should at least double it(its only 12, lol).


Struggling with my bowling a bit at the moment suffering from a slight bit of googly syndrome after finally getting my googly nailed somehow managed to start bowling leg breaks out the back of my hand as well at nets in the week, needless to say they don't have anywhere near the same revs on. Hoping to try and sort it out at nets tomorrow.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;388298 said:
in the 4 games i played last season i managed 2-118 (at a strike rate of 42) with the ball, and averaged 14 with the bat lol. and i thought id had a pretty good first season with those figures! 5-60 doesnt sound too bad at all :D it actually sounds pretty good, average of 12!

ive set myself similar goals to yourself. i want a 5-wicket haul for less than 25 runs. i want my season average to be <25, and my strike rate to be <20. with a minimum of 2 wickets per game for the entire season. thats my target, i dont expect to reach it, but if you aim low then whats the point!

im targetting a batting average of >25 (even though i cant bat), with at least one hundred, 2 fifties, and five 20+ run hauls. the bowling goals are unlikely, the batting goals are pushing the definition of impossible though. but its worth a shot.
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Jim - it sounds like you can bat?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

gundalf7;388303 said:
the bowling looks good jim especially the flight looks perfect.
The targets ofr the season look nice and high :p ,i'm aiming for hopefully a 5 wicket haul or else to beat my best of 3 wickets. Batting wise i'm looking to beat my highest score hopefully should at least double it(its only 12, lol).


Struggling with my bowling a bit at the moment suffering from a slight bit of googly syndrome after finally getting my googly nailed somehow managed to start bowling leg breaks out the back of my hand as well at nets in the week, needless to say they don't have anywhere near the same revs on. Hoping to try and sort it out at nets tomorrow.
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My goals are simialr to Gundalf - my highest batting score is 9, if I I could beat that it would be good. In a game I'd like to get a five wicket haul - I had 3 x 4's last year - If I appealed for LBW's I may have got a couple of 5's when I think back and appealing for LBW's is still something I need to work on. Other than that my main target is to beat my strike rate of 15.25 and be more effective against the Left Handed bats.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

someblokecalleddave;388304 said:
Jim - it sounds like you can bat?
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i can hit runs. i cant really bat though. my technique is generally awful, i just swing. last season i hit 18, 23 and 0 in my 3 innings, with a strike rate of 75. which sounds a lot more impressive than it looked!!

i reckon about 25 of those 41 runs were scored off leg spinners (and another 10 or so off of a 14 year old that gifted me a couple of boundaries). im good against leg spin because i can get into the bowlers head, and i try to work the ball around playing more calculated shots. id be better against off spin if i didnt swing so hard and played sensible shots off them too. but i cant bat against seam, i cant drive at all, and my timing is awful. so im going to try and spend at least 15 mins against the bowling machine at winter nets every week now (real life bowlers are too inconsistent, so i can never find any rhythm or learn to drive lol). if i can learn to play straight bat shots then i can at least see off the seamers at the very minimum. and batting down the order means i get my fair share of average medium pacers and spin bowlers, which im much more comfortable against.

potentially i see myself as an all rounder eventually. but that might take a couple of years.

back to leg spin, because i fear i am discussing batting too much already... with regards targets, i had a good read (and watch of the videos) of the blog by that guy trying to get his maiden century a few weeks ago. i quite liked the idea of him setting himself the target of not just 100 runs, but scored in what he regarded as the perfect manner.

which got me to thinking, what is the perfect 5-for for a leg spinner, so here is my take on it (feel free to come up with your own)...

1. stock leg break, pitched around middle-off, edged to slip playing a drive
2. straight break LBW (bowled to a plan, not by chance)
3. overspun leg break (or top spinner) finding a glove for a catch off a defensive shot
4. clean bowled - either as a big leg break outside leg stump bowling the batsman behind his legs. OR, ball of the century - big drift, then turns back through the gate
5. stumped playing a genuine shot (not a crazy suicidal charge down the wicket) by a ball that beat the batsman with drift, NOT off the pitch

thats my dream 5-for. some people might swap one of those for a clean bowled googly dismissal. there are at least another 3 types of delivery i could add for an 8-for lol. such as a caught and bowled full toss (bowled to a plan against a back foot batsman), a clean bowled leftie with a big leg break well outside off stump, and a "hit stumps" dismissal by getting someone to knock their own bails off trying to get out of the way of an overspun delivery that bounces and hits them in the face whilst not wearing a helmet lol. the last one might sound a little sadistic, but a batsman without a helmet is just disrespectful :D ive hit kids in the grille before, ive had a tall left hander struggling to get gloves away from chest high balls. its just an awesome way to intimidate a batsman! i dont think the 8-for is even possible, some people might not even get one of those deliveries in their entire career, let alone all of them in a match. but the 5-for is remotely do-able.

in reality though id take 5 wickets caught on the rope at long-on!! or 5 stumpings charging down the wicket chasing 20 runs an over. 5 wickets is 5 wickets on the scorecard, but i take more notice in my own mind of the nature of a dismissal than the statistics. 2 "ball of the century" dismissals trump a 5-for all caught deep! a single "bowled behind the legs" dismissal trumps EVERYTHING for bragging rights in the clubhouse afterwards!!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;388290 said:
videos now uploaded. have a look at this thread....

http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t74514/
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I like how you are really giving it a rip. Thats a good shape and loop you got happening there. Your inviting the batsman to drive. (Except that guy you were bowling to indoors and he would not come out to play. He must have used all his crease and played you on your bounce, what comes down must go up he may have figured. Have you bowled to him again?)

You have a good line if you can maintain accuracy. you could move over to middle more if that dont work. If you are not hitting the seam those deliveries would be easy pickings. If you pitch out there you have to spin back. Topspinners and straight ones down legside are usually bad balls. You know that , I know.

Depending on how many overs you get, all you need is that nice legbreak you got and the odd straight one. Natural variation does the rest. No need to think too much about when to bowl the variation that way, just concentrate on the one thing, keeping it simple. Just varying the line when necessary takes enough thought and planning. You are well set up for bowling to lefthanders with that line.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

gashead23;388296 said:
over the last 2 seasons I have 5 wickets at like 60 runs

And averaging about 10 with the bat

Im starting from a low point!:(
Click to expand...

Those bowling figures are OK. Depends on how many overs you bowled but also how lucky you were too. Were you bowling legspin?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;388314 said:
i can hit runs. i cant really bat though. my technique is generally awful, i just swing. last season i hit 18, 23 and 0 in my 3 innings, with a strike rate of 75. which sounds a lot more impressive than it looked!!

i reckon about 25 of those 41 runs were scored off leg spinners (and another 10 or so off of a 14 year old that gifted me a couple of boundaries). im good against leg spin because i can get into the bowlers head, and i try to work the ball around playing more calculated shots. id be better against off spin if i didnt swing so hard and played sensible shots off them too. but i cant bat against seam, i cant drive at all, and my timing is awful. so im going to try and spend at least 15 mins against the bowling machine at winter nets every week now (real life bowlers are too inconsistent, so i can never find any rhythm or learn to drive lol). if i can learn to play straight bat shots then i can at least see off the seamers at the very minimum. and batting down the order means i get my fair share of average medium pacers and spin bowlers, which im much more comfortable against.
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Has anyone heard this said before (From my blog at Wrist Spin Bowling

Another thing I tried today was something I read about or heard a commentator talking about in the last week which was that both Ricky Ponting and Michael Clarke sometimes are heard to be saying to themselves 'Watch the ball, watch the ball, watch the ball' as the bowler approaches. I'm dogcrap useless at batting and both my sons over the last couple of years have bowled me again and again with relative ease. Just of late though I've improved against them, whereas my expectation was that as they got older they'd probably be able to bowl me with increasing ease? So today I tried the Ricky Ponting thing and sure enough I got the ball on the bat 100% of the time I did it. Whether that might transfer to a net session against a bunch of half decent bowlers is another matter?

Has anyone hear that before or do anything similar?

On the idea of a perect fivefer

1. To a left hander - an edge to slips from a wrong un playing forward shot.
2. Round the back of the legs of a RH player pitched miles outside legstump coming in to hit the bails of off-stump.
3. Bowled and caught playing against the spin of a wrong un. (Must include spectacular full stretch dive and caught with one hand a la' Paul Collingwood).
4. Flipper swinging in from wide of the off-side pitching on leg stump skidding in going under the bat and LBW or any stumps.
5. Wrong un out of no-where hitting middle and leg where the bat was trying to cut the leg break.
 
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